Scary Evangelicals

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Turboswede, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. Turboswede
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    Turboswede Very Metal

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    Well, the election is over and the collective will of the American People was to elect Obama and I have been thinking about politics more over the past month than I have in the past 10 years. I have always thought that negotiation and mediation between arguments could always be achieved by understanding the opposing side’s point of view, using that basis I have been analyzing the basis of the arguments put forth by the Conservative movement and it scares me. From what I have observed there are 2 overriding themes that form the Conservative foundation, Protestant Calvinism and a strong belief in prophecy.

    While it appears that these are separate philosophies, they are combined into the idea of predestination. The that an all powerful god is directly responsible for all events with the goal of bringing the end of days and god’s kingdom on earth. If you view conservative arguments from that point of view they become rational, logical and absolutely terrifying.

    By going along with hard line evangelical conservatism you have accepted the notion that god has foretold the end of days and that any who stand in the way of the destruction of mankind are only standing in the way of god’s will. In that way is has a lot in common with a Doomsday cult, but this one make up 20% of the American electorate.

    This approach also explains why non-Calvinist Christians have a hard time with American evangelicals. For example, why have Catholics (in general) voted for liberal candidates even though Catholics would seem to agree with evangelicals on social issues? Catholics believe that man can change society and assist in curing social harms while evangelicals would argue that, as social harms are God's will, it goes against the will of god to try and correct them.

    The Calvinist view on wealth ties nicely to the evangelical’s view and directly contradicts the views held by most Catholics. The Calvinist logic would be something to the effect that:

    1. God is omnipotent
    2. God therefore knows who will be allowed into heaven
    3. As God knows who will be allowed into heaven, he would favor them on earth
    4. God’s favor can be shown in the accumulation of wealth
    5. Thus, those who are wealthy are God’s chosen and their wealth is the result of God’s will
    6. So, any attempt to redistribute wealth goes against the will of God


    Catholics would view the situation quite differently in that:
    1. God is omnipotent
    2. God’s will is that man use free will to decide to act for the benefit of Mankind
    3. God’s Favor is shown in the afterlife based on how individuals use free will
    4. Thus, only through our acts of free will can man be judged
    5. Therefore there is no predestination; and
    6. So, it is our duty to avoid the accumulation of wealth if it injures our fellow man
    7. Thus, we must guard against the accumulation of wealth from self will run riot

    I am far from being a biblical scholar, but I can see these themes arise over and over again in political discourse.

    On the environmental side, evangelicals say that any climate change, regardless of its cause, is the will of God and that it is not man’s roll to change the will of God. A non-evangelical would argue that climate change is the result of man’s free will, not the will of God as it does not benefit Mankind and steps should be taken to correct the imbalance caused by the exercise of free will.

    In general politics evangelicals have pointed to hereditary leaders “appointed by God” to wield power and act as a focus for the will of God. While non-evangelicals would argue that God’s will is reflected by the decision of the people acting in concert and that only through debate which moderates the impact of individual free will can the voice of God be herd.

    Because of that fundamental difference it is difficult for evangelicals and non-evangelicals to find common ground. The position that the world is as it is today due to the will of God because God is all powerful is a difficult one to argue with. Personally I think that self interested free will causes all sorts of problems and it is Man’s responsibility to work to correct them. If the goal of evangelicals is the fulfillment of prophesy that predicts the end of days, aren’t they a true threat to every man woman and child on the planet? That’s a scary thought but, if they are right, what I say won’t mater one way on another.
     
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  2. Diuretic
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    Diuretic Permanently confused

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    Interesting argument. I for one don't understand the evangelical mindset. The problem though lies in the influence that evangelicals have in politics. It is even happening here, though in a minor way as we're a very secular nation, with a conservative party at the state level being hijacked by evangelicals and making it virtually unelectable even though the incumbent government is inept and probably corrupt.
     
  3. AllieBaba
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    AllieBaba BANNED

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    You're full of shit, turbo. Give me some links to back up this crap. I have yet to hear an evangelical say that we aren't to stand in the way of the end of the world, what a load. Neither have evangelicals, at least in the US, EVER pointed to heriditary leaders...we don't have hereditary leaders, nitwit. And no, evangelicals are not a threat to every man, woman and child on the planet. What a ridiculous (but typical) thing to say. Particularly since you've based it on a completely ridiculous theory to start with.

    Just come out and say it. You hate evangelicals, and will tell any lie to make them look eeeeevvvvviiiiillll.

    Good grief. You guys think fundamentalists are crazy...we couldn't be half as crazy as you all if we tried.
     
  4. Turboswede
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    Turboswede Very Metal

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    Coming from you I would see that as a compliment

    It’s an argument based on logic and my observations, provide a rational argument against it or counter my observations.

    Neither have I, I am judging on actions rather than words.

    It was the deists George Washington and Thomas Jefferson who suggested that the leader of our country not be hereditary, up to that point the rule of the sovereign was interpreted as the will of god. As I have seen many evangelical arguments against the deist foundations of our country, I can only assume that the concept of a leader appointed by man rather than god would run counter to their view.

    Argue against the logic, don’t just say it’s wrong.

    1. If Evangelicals Believe in Prophesy
    2. And only through Armageddon can the Messiah return
    3. Why lift a finger to prevent Armageddon?
    Doesn’t that constitute a treat to mankind if there is an incentive for evangelicals to hasten the coming of Armageddon?

    I don’t agree with evangelicals, and if their goal is to bring on the end of days then I would classify them as evil. I haven’t asserted any truths to be called lies I only proposed an argument based on observation.

    The only rational (i.e. non crazy) basis for the political action (or inaction) I have seen on the part of evangelicals is the belief that they are hasting Armageddon.
     
  5. CactusCarlos
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    CactusCarlos Member

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    Not sure who you're talking to but no evangelical I've ever met was arrogant enough to believe they could sway God's plan in any direction. Liberals, on the other hand...
     

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