Saudi clerics: Isis terrorism a 'heinous crime' under sharia law

[Tilly]

you know nothing about islam------it is possible that you have been reading some
Islamic propaganda. BTW----there are a LOT more than "3 types" of female circumcision. Female circumcision is another topic about which you know nothing. Female circumcision is an EXTENSIVE TOPIC------with lots of information in the medical literature------stuff you never have and never will read
-----nor would you understand it if you did. I do not believe that you ever read
the koran-------I have. I do not believe that you have interacted with a whole lot
of muslims-----I have... You don't have a "position" You might have picked
something up from a propaganda rant.

Bullshit rosie.
I hate the religion of islam probably more than you. Thing is, I don't resort to emotional outcries filled with bullshit.
There are PLENTY of legit things to demonize islam over. Why manufacture bullshit?
Maybe you can prove your allegations? Ill wait

what "allegation" do you want me TO PROVE?-------this is a message board----you cannot even PROVE that you did not murder a six year old this morning.
As to CIRCUMCISION-----I state the facts------not propaganda. I do not give a damn whether muslims circumcise their girls or not. The trivialization of
female circumcision is PROPAGANDA-------it varies from "we don't really do that"--------to "other people made us do it"-----------I have responded to false
information about circumcision provided by APOLOGISTS FOR ALL THINGS
MUSLIM, but have never USED that issue as a propaganda tool against islam

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

In all fairness, even Muslims, even Muslim scholars, in fact, can't agree whether fgm is against Islam, or is indeed obligatory. I don't think anyone can say either way with perfect authority. It seems to come down to interpretation.

 

[Tilly]

The following quotation is taken from Reliance of the Traveller, Revised edition, amana publications, Beltsville, 1997. The title page informs us that this book is

The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law ‘Umdat al-Salik
by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with
Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices
Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller


In this book, in the section titled "THE BODY", we find on page 59 the following entry:



Nuh Hah Mim Keller's Translation Arabic Original


e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"

The above used abbreviations mean:

A: ... comment by Sheikh 'Abd al-Wakil Durubi
Ar. Arabic
n: ... remark by the translator
O: ... excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh 'Umar Barakat

However what the Arabic actually says is:

Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris
(this is called HufaaD). {bold emphasis ours}

The Arabic word bazr does not mean "prepuce of the clitoris", it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed.

Islamic Law on Female Circumcision

 

[irosie91]

wahabi/salafi isnt islam.just fake branch

Just to correct, Wahabism is a school of reform who call to fight superstitions, they are hanbalite.
The Chief saudi cleric is disciple of this school however it doesn't mean that it can't be criticized by those clerics or doing revision.

all isis book writen by suidi cleric.
isis and al qaede.all of them ideology coming from suidi cleric wahabism ideology.

Brussels' Great Mosque and ties with Salafism
Brussels' Great Mosque and ties with Salafism | News | DW.COM | 21.11.2015
Why are terrorists drawn to Belgium?
Why are terrorists drawn to Belgium? | Kristof Clerix

suidi arabia cleric funding brussels mosque .........
all imam and all book supported by suidi cleric in brussels mosque...


this basterd

the very first muslim I knew WELL ENOUGH to discuss "issues" was a very young SHIITE SURGEON from India. I was younger. He had a remarkably ROMANTIC notion of the issue of the CALIPHATE------it was from that ARDENT SHIITE that I learned about the education of young muslims as to the HISTORY OF ISLAM. Over the years I learned both sides----the SUNNI Caliphate complex AND the SHIITE caliphate complex------SAME SHIT----just----different OWNERS

 

[TNHarley]

The Messenger of Allah said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.

— Sahih Muslim, 3:684

the bath or ghusl is required after sex, sperm discharge, end of the menstrual cycle etc

 

[irosie91]

Bullshit rosie.
I hate the religion of islam probably more than you. Thing is, I don't resort to emotional outcries filled with bullshit.
There are PLENTY of legit things to demonize islam over. Why manufacture bullshit?
Maybe you can prove your allegations? Ill wait

what "allegation" do you want me TO PROVE?-------this is a message board----you cannot even PROVE that you did not murder a six year old this morning.
As to CIRCUMCISION-----I state the facts------not propaganda. I do not give a damn whether muslims circumcise their girls or not. The trivialization of
female circumcision is PROPAGANDA-------it varies from "we don't really do that"--------to "other people made us do it"-----------I have responded to false
information about circumcision provided by APOLOGISTS FOR ALL THINGS
MUSLIM, but have never USED that issue as a propaganda tool against islam

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

In all fairness, even Muslims, even Muslim scholars, in fact, can't agree whether fgm is against Islam, or is indeed obligatory. I don't think anyone can say either way with perfect authority. It seems to come down to interpretation.

exactly tilly-----LATELY------Lately there are muslim clerics who have decided to come out against that VERY ISLAMIC PRACTICE

 

[irosie91]

The Messenger of Allah said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.

— Sahih Muslim, 3:684

the bath or ghusl is required after sex, sperm discharge, end of the menstrual cycle etc

yes-----SO? ------when a muslim male LEGALLY rapes a girl----(ie a non muslim or a muslim declared TAKFIR) he must do a kind of ritual "wash" before he prays. A splash of water-------in the absence of water-----a bit of dust

 

[Tilly]

what "allegation" do you want me TO PROVE?-------this is a message board----you cannot even PROVE that you did not murder a six year old this morning.
As to CIRCUMCISION-----I state the facts------not propaganda. I do not give a damn whether muslims circumcise their girls or not. The trivialization of
female circumcision is PROPAGANDA-------it varies from "we don't really do that"--------to "other people made us do it"-----------I have responded to false
information about circumcision provided by APOLOGISTS FOR ALL THINGS
MUSLIM, but have never USED that issue as a propaganda tool against islam

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

I have seen several respected imams on to quoting the quran and hadith in support of their assertion that fgm is obligatory in islam. Others say it isn't. A great many Muslims practice it and seem to believe it's obligatory. Without finding the verse ps it's hard to say.

you are in luck, tilly. I did read the koran LONG LONG ago but have an UNCANNY ability to REMEMBER that which I read. I remember stuff I read
60 years ago. First understand the KORAN is not entirely the same as HADITH----but in the KORAN that I read-----they kinda showed up together. HADITH is stuff Muhummad himself is said to have SAID ----but putatively not the stuff DICTATED
by JIBRIL (Gabriel) the archangel in the bat cave. I remember it ALL as KORAN------Muhummad said something about a "moderate" circumcision is best.
A moderate circumcision is removal of the PREPUCE OF THE CLITORUS----that is the bit of tissue analogous to the FORESKIN on a male----it is a minimal circumcision-----not the kind done in places like sudan where the whole clitoris is obliterated. Some muslims might JUMP and say "NOT KORAN" -----ie it is HADITH. Now for reality------female circumcision has been consider ISLAMICALLY mandated by muslims so much so that islam spread the practice
to places that before islam NEVER PRACTICED IT-------like Indonesia and Pakistan. Today female circumcision is virtually EXCLUSIVELY an Islamic practice. -------expect islamo Nazi propagandaist do deny that fact. It is well
documented in the medical literature WORLD WIDE

Here is one of the Hadith verses you might be recalling, but it is a Hadith over which some Muslims debate the veracity of the transmission or isnad:

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

— Sunan Abu Dawood, 41:5251

 

[TNHarley]

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

I have seen several respected imams on to quoting the quran and hadith in support of their assertion that fgm is obligatory in islam. Others say it isn't. A great many Muslims practice it and seem to believe it's obligatory. Without finding the verse ps it's hard to say.

There isn't a verse in the Quran.
The hadith says "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
The Quran talks about female equality as far as sexual appreciation. If the women got involuntarily circumcised, their enjoyment could be tarnished.

Bullshit-----there is NOTHING voluntary about either male or female circumcision. Women in islam have NO CHOICE in sexual activity----
it is the RIGHT of their "wali" -----their GUARDIAN by either virtue of marriage
(ie husband) or owner by virtue of slavery-----ie the owner of the female slave---by purchase or by capture in war or by virtue of the DHIMMIS ORPHAN LAW. Try to be honest FOR A CHANGE

ummm ok. Deny what the hadith actual says if you want to.
I don't disagree with what you said. I was just posting what it actually says. Islam is FAR from consistent. No religion is.

 

[irosie91]

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

I have seen several respected imams on to quoting the quran and hadith in support of their assertion that fgm is obligatory in islam. Others say it isn't. A great many Muslims practice it and seem to believe it's obligatory. Without finding the verse ps it's hard to say.

you are in luck, tilly. I did read the koran LONG LONG ago but have an UNCANNY ability to REMEMBER that which I read. I remember stuff I read
60 years ago. First understand the KORAN is not entirely the same as HADITH----but in the KORAN that I read-----they kinda showed up together. HADITH is stuff Muhummad himself is said to have SAID ----but putatively not the stuff DICTATED
by JIBRIL (Gabriel) the archangel in the bat cave. I remember it ALL as KORAN------Muhummad said something about a "moderate" circumcision is best.
A moderate circumcision is removal of the PREPUCE OF THE CLITORUS----that is the bit of tissue analogous to the FORESKIN on a male----it is a minimal circumcision-----not the kind done in places like sudan where the whole clitoris is obliterated. Some muslims might JUMP and say "NOT KORAN" -----ie it is HADITH. Now for reality------female circumcision has been consider ISLAMICALLY mandated by muslims so much so that islam spread the practice
to places that before islam NEVER PRACTICED IT-------like Indonesia and Pakistan. Today female circumcision is virtually EXCLUSIVELY an Islamic practice. -------expect islamo Nazi propagandaist do deny that fact. It is well
documented in the medical literature WORLD WIDE

Here is one of the Hadith verses you might be recalling, but it is a Hadith over which some Muslims debate the veracity of the transmission or isnad:

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

— Sunan Abu Dawood, 41:5251

yes I do recall that one------and it IS----in fact one of the very few allusions to circumcision in the KORAN/HADITHS. There is no allusion to bagels in the Talmud-----but it is STILL vital in jewish holiday breakfasts-----for jews world over

 

[irosie91]

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

I have seen several respected imams on to quoting the quran and hadith in support of their assertion that fgm is obligatory in islam. Others say it isn't. A great many Muslims practice it and seem to believe it's obligatory. Without finding the verse ps it's hard to say.

There isn't a verse in the Quran.
The hadith says "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
The Quran talks about female equality as far as sexual appreciation. If the women got involuntarily circumcised, their enjoyment could be tarnished.

Bullshit-----there is NOTHING voluntary about either male or female circumcision. Women in islam have NO CHOICE in sexual activity----
it is the RIGHT of their "wali" -----their GUARDIAN by either virtue of marriage
(ie husband) or owner by virtue of slavery-----ie the owner of the female slave---by purchase or by capture in war or by virtue of the DHIMMIS ORPHAN LAW. Try to be honest FOR A CHANGE

ummm ok. Deny what the hadith actual says if you want to.
I don't disagree with what you said. I was just posting what it actually says. Islam is FAR from consistent. No religion is.

Islam is quite consistent I would describe it as a LOT more consistent than is christainity------there are no significant muslim populations in the world in which female circumcision is ENTIRELY absent------even in places in which circumcision of females was entirely unknown before ISLAM got there

 

[TNHarley]

Bullshit rosie.
I hate the religion of islam probably more than you. Thing is, I don't resort to emotional outcries filled with bullshit.
There are PLENTY of legit things to demonize islam over. Why manufacture bullshit?
Maybe you can prove your allegations? Ill wait

what "allegation" do you want me TO PROVE?-------this is a message board----you cannot even PROVE that you did not murder a six year old this morning.
As to CIRCUMCISION-----I state the facts------not propaganda. I do not give a damn whether muslims circumcise their girls or not. The trivialization of
female circumcision is PROPAGANDA-------it varies from "we don't really do that"--------to "other people made us do it"-----------I have responded to false
information about circumcision provided by APOLOGISTS FOR ALL THINGS
MUSLIM, but have never USED that issue as a propaganda tool against islam

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

In all fairness, even Muslims, even Muslim scholars, in fact, can't agree whether fgm is against Islam, or is indeed obligatory. I don't think anyone can say either way with perfect authority. It seems to come down to interpretation.

I stated that earlier. IDK how I delved into such certainty... There is no definitive answer. It isn't a touched on subject like murder or conquering..
This imam says this, that one says that. Fuck all of em.

 

[TNHarley]

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

I have seen several respected imams on to quoting the quran and hadith in support of their assertion that fgm is obligatory in islam. Others say it isn't. A great many Muslims practice it and seem to believe it's obligatory. Without finding the verse ps it's hard to say.

There isn't a verse in the Quran.
The hadith says "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
The Quran talks about female equality as far as sexual appreciation. If the women got involuntarily circumcised, their enjoyment could be tarnished.

Bullshit-----there is NOTHING voluntary about either male or female circumcision. Women in islam have NO CHOICE in sexual activity----
it is the RIGHT of their "wali" -----their GUARDIAN by either virtue of marriage
(ie husband) or owner by virtue of slavery-----ie the owner of the female slave---by purchase or by capture in war or by virtue of the DHIMMIS ORPHAN LAW. Try to be honest FOR A CHANGE

ummm ok. Deny what the hadith actual says if you want to.
I don't disagree with what you said. I was just posting what it actually says. Islam is FAR from consistent. No religion is.

Islam is quite consistent I would describe it as a LOT more consistent than is christainity------there are no significant muslim populations in the world in which female circumcision is ENTIRELY absent------even in places in which circumcision of females was entirely unknown before ISLAM got there

I don't think so. Like I stated that women have equality to sexual appreciation. Yet, they get forcibly raped and other various barbarious actions. Women don't have a say in shit, yet, they get sexual equality? Inconsistent..
In islam, a man even has the right to rape a woman in front of her husband! I don't remember the cause for that to be a just action, but it is "legal" nonetheless.

 

[Tilly]

what "allegation" do you want me TO PROVE?-------this is a message board----you cannot even PROVE that you did not murder a six year old this morning.
As to CIRCUMCISION-----I state the facts------not propaganda. I do not give a damn whether muslims circumcise their girls or not. The trivialization of
female circumcision is PROPAGANDA-------it varies from "we don't really do that"--------to "other people made us do it"-----------I have responded to false
information about circumcision provided by APOLOGISTS FOR ALL THINGS
MUSLIM, but have never USED that issue as a propaganda tool against islam

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

In all fairness, even Muslims, even Muslim scholars, in fact, can't agree whether fgm is against Islam, or is indeed obligatory. I don't think anyone can say either way with perfect authority. It seems to come down to interpretation.

I stated that earlier. IDK how I delved into such certainty... There is no definitive answer. It isn't a touched on subject like murder or conquering..
This imam says this, that one says that. Fuck all of em.

I agree. Then there's the problem that some sects accept this Hadith as more reliable than another, and, of course, there's the al taqiyya

 

[irosie91]

I have seen several respected imams on to quoting the quran and hadith in support of their assertion that fgm is obligatory in islam. Others say it isn't. A great many Muslims practice it and seem to believe it's obligatory. Without finding the verse ps it's hard to say.

There isn't a verse in the Quran.
The hadith says "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
The Quran talks about female equality as far as sexual appreciation. If the women got involuntarily circumcised, their enjoyment could be tarnished.

Bullshit-----there is NOTHING voluntary about either male or female circumcision. Women in islam have NO CHOICE in sexual activity----
it is the RIGHT of their "wali" -----their GUARDIAN by either virtue of marriage
(ie husband) or owner by virtue of slavery-----ie the owner of the female slave---by purchase or by capture in war or by virtue of the DHIMMIS ORPHAN LAW. Try to be honest FOR A CHANGE

ummm ok. Deny what the hadith actual says if you want to.
I don't disagree with what you said. I was just posting what it actually says. Islam is FAR from consistent. No religion is.

Islam is quite consistent I would describe it as a LOT more consistent than is christainity------there are no significant muslim populations in the world in which female circumcision is ENTIRELY absent------even in places in which circumcision of females was entirely unknown before ISLAM got there

I don't think so. Like I stated that women have equality to sexual appreciation. Yet, they get forcibly raped and other various barbarious actions. Women don't have a say in shit, yet, they get sexual equality? Inconsistent..
In islam, a man even has the right to rape a woman in front of her husband! I don't remember the cause for that to be a just action, but it is "legal" nonetheless.

you want to DEFINE what you IMAGINE to be "sexual equality" that you claim exists "IN ISLAM" ?-----I am ready for the comic routine

 

[irosie91]

Only facts you stated where some clerics support it. Doesn't prove shit. Im not arguing some muslims are barbaric savages.
PROVE to me where islam supports female circumcision. This shouldn't be hard since you are right and I am soooooo wrong.

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

In all fairness, even Muslims, even Muslim scholars, in fact, can't agree whether fgm is against Islam, or is indeed obligatory. I don't think anyone can say either way with perfect authority. It seems to come down to interpretation.

I stated that earlier. IDK how I delved into such certainty... There is no definitive answer. It isn't a touched on subject like murder or conquering..
This imam says this, that one says that. Fuck all of em.

I agree. Then there's the problem that some sects accept this Hadith as more reliable than another, and, of course, there the al taqiyya

well----not exactly----some hadiths are sorta universally accepted. As to the circumcision one -------it is really not all that significant -----it just TRULY disputes the Islamic lie "circumcision is not mentioned in the koran/hadiths" <<< that is the lie

 

[TNHarley]

There isn't a verse in the Quran.
The hadith says "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
The Quran talks about female equality as far as sexual appreciation. If the women got involuntarily circumcised, their enjoyment could be tarnished.

Bullshit-----there is NOTHING voluntary about either male or female circumcision. Women in islam have NO CHOICE in sexual activity----
it is the RIGHT of their "wali" -----their GUARDIAN by either virtue of marriage
(ie husband) or owner by virtue of slavery-----ie the owner of the female slave---by purchase or by capture in war or by virtue of the DHIMMIS ORPHAN LAW. Try to be honest FOR A CHANGE

ummm ok. Deny what the hadith actual says if you want to.
I don't disagree with what you said. I was just posting what it actually says. Islam is FAR from consistent. No religion is.

Islam is quite consistent I would describe it as a LOT more consistent than is christainity------there are no significant muslim populations in the world in which female circumcision is ENTIRELY absent------even in places in which circumcision of females was entirely unknown before ISLAM got there

I don't think so. Like I stated that women have equality to sexual appreciation. Yet, they get forcibly raped and other various barbarious actions. Women don't have a say in shit, yet, they get sexual equality? Inconsistent..
In islam, a man even has the right to rape a woman in front of her husband! I don't remember the cause for that to be a just action, but it is "legal" nonetheless.

you want to DEFINE what you IMAGINE to be "sexual equality" that you claim exists "IN ISLAM" ?-----I am ready for the comic routine

“She has over him the same right of sexual cohabitation he has over her.” (Tafsir for 2:178).
And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise(2:228).
“They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them…” (Al-Baqarah: 187) Wife neglect is as sinful as a wifes neglect to her husband.
“Among the rulings of marriage is that each spouse is allowed to derive sexual pleasure from the other.” [ Radd al-Muhtar, 3.4]
Not to mention the Quran mentions that the purpose of marriage is to retain sukun. Tranquility and peace or something along those lines

 

[TNHarley]

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

In all fairness, even Muslims, even Muslim scholars, in fact, can't agree whether fgm is against Islam, or is indeed obligatory. I don't think anyone can say either way with perfect authority. It seems to come down to interpretation.

I stated that earlier. IDK how I delved into such certainty... There is no definitive answer. It isn't a touched on subject like murder or conquering..
This imam says this, that one says that. Fuck all of em.

I agree. Then there's the problem that some sects accept this Hadith as more reliable than another, and, of course, there the al taqiyya

well----not exactly----some hadiths are sorta universally accepted. As to the circumcision one -------it is really not all that significant -----it just TRULY disputes the Islamic lie "circumcision is not mentioned in the koran/hadiths" <<< that is the lie

circumcision isn't mentioned in the quran

 

[Tilly]

interestingly, The Reliance of the Traveller - fiqh or Islamic jurisprudence, seems to be a handbook of shariah law, and it clearly states that female circumcision - as in removal of the clitoris -is obligatory. However, I think it was written in the 13C and I don't know how widely used/respected it is accross Islam. Does anyone know?

 

[Tilly]

Islamic scholars are the people who DECIDE that which islam supports. ISLAM---does not support anything-------it is the name of an ideology which has been elaborated over centuries and is BASED on the purported actions and words of the
person Muhummad. Your statement is about as logical as saying 'COMMUNISM' SUPPORTS SPUTNIK. In the world TODAY the overwhelming majority of female circumcisions are enacted by MUSLIMS for
RELIGIOUS reasons-------and variously adovocated or DEMANDED by the
recognized scholars of islam

Isnt that what this thread is about? Doing shit against Islam?
I don't even disagree with a lot of what you said. But you cant seem to grasp the simple concept "it is against islam".

In all fairness, even Muslims, even Muslim scholars, in fact, can't agree whether fgm is against Islam, or is indeed obligatory. I don't think anyone can say either way with perfect authority. It seems to come down to interpretation.

I stated that earlier. IDK how I delved into such certainty... There is no definitive answer. It isn't a touched on subject like murder or conquering..
This imam says this, that one says that. Fuck all of em.

I agree. Then there's the problem that some sects accept this Hadith as more reliable than another, and, of course, there the al taqiyya

well----not exactly----some hadiths are sorta universally accepted. As to the circumcision one -------it is really not all that significant -----it just TRULY disputes the Islamic lie "circumcision is not mentioned in the koran/hadiths" <<< that is the lie

True. I think Bukhari is universally accepted, but still some Muslims call it rubbish when you pick out something they don't like and they think you know nothing about Islam

 

[TNHarley]

interestingly, The Reliance of the Traveller - fiqh or Islamic jurisprudence, seems to be a handbook of shariah law, and it clearly states that female circumcision - as in removal of the clitoris -is obligatory. However, I think it was written in the 13C and I don't know how widely used/respected it is accross Islam. Does anyone know?

The shafi school you mentioned earlier considers it a "sound position" I believe. Maybe that was before it got "reformed" by the ottoman empire. IDK