Romney Answers Occupy

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by PoliticalChic, Jan 5, 2012.

  1. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    1. "Fresh off his narrow win in Iowa, Romney was making his first campaign appearance ahead of the New Hampshire primary on Jan. 10 when the questioner – who said he was from both the Occupy New Hampshire and Occupy Boston protest groups against economic inequality – raised his hand and asked a question about corporate greed.

    2. “Now, let’s get the facts,” Romney said, before explaining that corporate dividends don’t just go to the “1 percent” shareholders, but also people who have pensions.

    3. “When the business has profit it can do good things. Give it to the shareholders and grow the enterprise and, and by the way, the only way it can hire people is if it grows the enterprise.”

    4. Romney said that if the protesters could come up with a better idea than free enterprise he was willing to listen.

    5.“It’s marvelous, the vision of the founders,” he said. “If you can come up with one that’s better that what was brought forward by John Adams and George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, I’m all ears, but until then I am in favor of the one that was presented by the founders of this country.”

    6. When the questioner interrupted Romney at one point to argue that the United States had the highest inequality in the developed world, Romney said the income per person in America was about 50 percent more than in Europe.

    7. “[Our system] might be far from perfect, and it is, but it’s just a lot better than anything else that the world has ever seen. So in my view the right thing for us to do is to find ways to improve the system that we have rather than trying to pretend like there’s something better out there,” Romney said."
    Romney quizzed by Occupy protesters at N.H. town hall meeting | Tales from the Trail


    Pretty good answer.
     
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  2. Ravi
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    Ravi Diamond Member

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    What does the free market have to do with different tax rates for different types of income?
     
  3. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    1. If you are asking why capital gains is taxed at a lower rate than earned income, it is a policy decison based on the perceived need for investment in a market economy...

    2. ...don't you want to ask the same question about the progressive insistence on taxpayer support for private individuals buying homes?

    3. And I know you want to question the basis of a 'progressive income tax' system!

    Go to it!
     
  4. Ravi
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    Ravi Diamond Member

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    Absolutely and I have here many times. People tend to like tax benefits when they benefit themselves. It gets pretty hypocritical.

    Mitten enjoys a lower rate than the rest of us, so much lower, in fact, that he refuses to release his tax forms.

    But that is all off topic. He is claiming tax rates are part of the free market and they are anything but.

    btw, why do you number everything?
     
  5. Dragon
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    Dragon Senior Member

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    In nonzero amounts, that's true, but corporate dividends are even more lopsided than income generally.

    Nice refutation of a straw man. No one is suggesting that business should be unable to make a profit. All that's being suggested is that income should be distributed more evenly to individuals, that income gaps should be narrower than they are. That actually has just about nothing to do with business profits.

    Romney ought to (and probably does) know that the best-performing economic system in history is what is variously called managed-market, social democracy, or mixed economy. So there's the alternative. We've even used it before here, and it worked splendidly.

    Another straw man. The founders did not mandate yawning income gaps, nor is it proposed that we abandon the Constitution.

    This is false.

    List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    At least three European countries (Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, and Norway) have higher per-capital GDP than the U.S. 50% less than U.S. per capita GDP would be $35,400. In addition to the above three countries, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, Ireland, Denmark, Germany, and Finland all have more than 3/4 of the U.S. per-capita GDP. When you factor in the much lower inequality in those countries, you end up with most citizens in most of Europe having higher incomes than most Americans. Only the poorest European countries would be exceptions.

    The same applies in Canada, Australia, Japan, and similar non-European social democracies.

    Again, this is false (see above). Not only is the system we have not as good as what is found in other advanced economies, but it is also not as good as the one we used to have.

    Nice try, Mitt, but no cigar.
     
  6. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    1.This is an interesting post.

    2. Can I assume that you agree that investment is a critical component in the growth of a free economy?

    3. "Absolutely and I have here many times. People tend to like tax benefits when they benefit themselves. It gets pretty hypocritical."
    Does this mean that you have questioned mortgage deductions, the creation of the GSE's by FDR, the pressure on banks to commit loans to less than credit-worthy individuals, the CRA, and the efforts by the Clinton HUD?
    Is that your position, you conservative, you??


    4. "People tend to like tax benefits when they benefit themselves. It gets pretty hypocritical."
    I'll have to disagree with you about this conclusion....folks who are offered largesse can hardly be faulted for agreeing to accept same.

    5. "Mitten enjoys a lower rate than the rest of us, so much lower, in fact, that he refuses to release his tax forms."
    Conjecture?
    Link?

    6. "He is claiming tax rates are part of the free market and they are anything but."
    Clarification, please.
    Exactly what part of 'tax rates' engenders your criticism?
    Are you supporting a flat tax?
    Opposed to Earned Income Tax Credits?
    Upset by the fact that half the electorate pays no federal taxes?

    7. "btw, why do you number everything?"
    Why do you ask?
     
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  7. Dont Taz Me Bro
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    Dont Taz Me Bro USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    It doesn't. That is a Marxist concept that impedes the free market.
     
  8. Dragon
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    Dragon Senior Member

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    I believe it was first proposed by Adam Smith, actually.
     
  9. Ravi
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    Ravi Diamond Member

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    Absolutely. And so is a labor force.

    None of this has to do with his claim in your OP. Unless you are claiming that he is claiming that investors are somehow more deserving of low tax rates than anyone else.
     
  10. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    1. "...investors are somehow more deserving of low tax rates than anyone else."
    This statement has no context.

    The folks who invest are using funds that have already been taxed at earned income rates.
    Then then must be enticed into risking the money they have, and the cap gains rate is the enticement.

    2. This may make you feel better:
    As productivity and skills increase, workers earn more. Productivity of workers in competitive markets is what determines the earnings of most workers; and it is not an accident that labor earns about 70% of the total output of the American economy, and capital earns about 30%.
    This, from chapter nine of Peter Ferrara's "America's Ticking Bankruptcy Bomb."

    3. And, you may be interested in the following:
    a. ncentive effects are compounded in our tax system through the multiple taxation of capital, …several times in federal and state tax codes.

    b. Example: invest one dollar in the stock of a corporation. A dollar that the corporation earns is taxed at the corporate income tax rate of about 40% (that includes federal plus state corporate taxes). If the rest of that dollar is paid to our investor in dividends, then it is taxed again via individual income tax at the dividend tax rate. With Obama increasing the dividends tax rate from 15% to 43.4%*, applying the 43.4% rate to the 60 cents remaining after paying the corporate income tax leaves just 34 cents for the investor, of the original dollar he earned!

    c. A third layer of taxation of capital income is represented by the capital gains tax. Consider an asset such as a share of stock….If that asset is sold, taxing the increased value by the capital gains tax is effectively taxing that future income stream a third time.

    d. The death tax (estate tax) is a fourth layer of taxation on capital income. If our investor saves the 34 cents from the corporate stock and leaves it to his children, the death tax would take about half, leaving 17 cents of the original dollar.
    Ferrara, “America’s Ticking Bankruptcy Bomb,” p. 215-216.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012

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