Right ahead of NAFTA talks, the stats on how much Canada "wins" against America

[shockedcanadian]

Here are the stats. How we are able to beat you so soundly every year is simple, you're a nation based on liberty and relatively free market capitalism, we are a socialism, centralized, state owned, run and covert economy. Check out 2008, $78B trade surplus, our highest fleecing yet of America.


Foreign Trade - U.S. Trade with Canada

 

[my2¢]

But we more than make up for it by nailing you folks for services.

Canada is currently our 2nd largest goods trading partner with $544.0 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $266.0 billion; goods imports totaled $278.1 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Canada was $12.1 billion in 2016.

Trade in services with Canada (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $ 83.7 billion in 2016. Services exports were $54.2 billion; services imports were $ 26.9 billion. The U.S. services trade surplus with Canada was $24.6 billion in 2016.

Canada | United States Trade Representative​

 

[Tehon]

Here are the stats. How we are able to beat you so soundly every year is simple, you're a nation based on liberty and relatively free market capitalism, we are a socialism, centralized, state owned, run and covert economy. Check out 2008, $78B trade surplus, our highest fleecing yet of America.


Foreign Trade - U.S. Trade with Canada

Socialism is smacking the crap out of free market capitalism. I wouldn't be shouting that too loud if I were you.

 

[cnm]

WTF does 2008 have to do with anything?

 

[cnm]

But we more than make up for it by nailing you folks for services.

Citizen. Please. This is not a thread for reality.

 

[shockedcanadian]

But we more than make up for it by nailing you folks for services.

Canada is currently our 2nd largest goods trading partner with $544.0 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $266.0 billion; goods imports totaled $278.1 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Canada was $12.1 billion in 2016.

Trade in services with Canada (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $ 83.7 billion in 2016. Services exports were $54.2 billion; services imports were $ 26.9 billion. The U.S. services trade surplus with Canada was $24.6 billion in 2016.

Canada | United States Trade Representative​

But we more than make up for it by nailing you folks for services.

Canada is currently our 2nd largest goods trading partner with $544.0 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $266.0 billion; goods imports totaled $278.1 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with Canada was $12.1 billion in 2016.

Trade in services with Canada (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $ 83.7 billion in 2016. Services exports were $54.2 billion; services imports were $ 26.9 billion. The U.S. services trade surplus with Canada was $24.6 billion in 2016.

Canada | United States Trade Representative​

Another long one because I care (and type 60+ WPM).


Services is a horribly overrated metric and I agree with Trump, Ross, Lighthizer and others to not include this when calculating NAFTA, I said this even before I know the numbers. Services is a very broad, easily manipulated and loosely defined asset. It should not even be included in the data, and the fact that it is being presented as such is telling.

This is a game of Three Card Monty and it should be provided with an asterisk for the purposes of NAFTA. It is extremely complicated and not nearly as valuable in my opinion as goods alone in MOST cases. You should also note, we charge America a 7% GST (Goods and Service Tax, it was 8% for decades) taxes on ALL of your imports into Canada if it is at all housed here be it a truck, warehouse or anything. So a truck sending stuff to eh warehouse in Amazon or WalMart gets hit. This, even with NAFTA because we love you so much.

Let's work through the numbers for accuracy and you are going to see why I believe it's overrated. You can be sure there is no way America has a clean massive net export that high in services. When I say "clean" I mean a Canadian owned company and/or Canadian government purchasing this service from an American businesses and vice versa. We are a 35 Million with very little innovation, you have 330M. We don't even have a domestic auto industry for the love of God, the only Western nation without it. We are not going to require this level of purchasing of services from America, even Japan wouldn't.

So, guess where a number of these services is going to? Other U.S corporations located in Canada, for which, we Canadian citizens are happily employed and paying taxes to the Canadian government. A transfer across the border from one jurisdiction or subsidiary to another. Intellectual property/services from one U.S corporation in America to another U.S corporations operating in Canada, as Canada cannot provide the necessary know how domestically.

So it's not an equal apples to apples benefit in most cases. Company ABC in Michigan sends employees to Company ABC in Toronto to service the infrastructure or technical issue. Or, company ABC in Michigan transfers new Intellectual property to Company ABC in Toronto. Yay, look, an export! Nice on paper eh? Would you invest in a company who was moving boxes from one building to the next and calling it a sale?

You can also just imagine how Canada might use this intellectual property, and my foghorn should give you some pause on this issue. Let's glean a cue from Trump himself to how much weight and trust Trump and U.S place on this "trade" with Canada. Take a listen and make note of how often Trump talks about "protecting intellectual property in any negotiated NAFTA agreement". The same issues that Canada is balking at, Why is that? Why would Canada, who offers so little in intellectual exports, be so concerned about NOT wanting to negotiate this issue? America wants protection. From China diaspora in particular who operate in Canada, but also, from Canada and other "allies" across the pond. It's a dirty world when you deal with a centralized economy.

There was a news report from a U.S channel a few months back, talking about a specific mall, one I had been to in the past many times. It's just outside Toronto in a city called Markham, the name is aptly "Pacific Mall". It is rampant, I mean rampant, wall to wall, maybe 300 small cubicle stores as you might see in Shanghai, and it is full of counterfeit items. Everything from DVD's to watches and high end clothing. Outright copied, sold sometimes for many of hundreds of dollars, when it was imported cheaply from China for pennies. The RCMP and local police do f all about it as they figure the money is being cycled in the economy, so why care about American copywrites and patents?. It's clear as day, right in front of your face and Canada has refused to enforce our laws. It has been deemed by America as the #1 location of intellectual property theft and counterfeiting outside the U.S.

In regards to Travel export, which is the biggest item of services that the U.S exports to Canada, check out the definition:

Travel services (% of commercial service imports) covers goods and services acquired from an economy by travelers in that economy for their own use during visits of less than one year for business or personal purposes. Travel services include the goods and services consumed by travelers, such as lodging, meals, and transport (within the economy visited).

It's important for us to understand what this export really means for America, especially since we know some measure of this value will be business trips paid for by American companies in Canada who send their Canadian employees to America for education, and, home purchases by Snowbirds who go to Florida for the winter, and who will ultimately realize a capital gain. Of course you will see a massive difference in this export, as we have many Canadians who retire/visit America for six months of the year.

This is why Goods alone should be determined for NAFTA. Since the largest issue in services exists regardless of NAFTA, it's a necessity for businesses education, students and often investment for homes that will ultimately see a withdrawal of U.S dollars upon sale (of course, not calculated, but extremely important in regards to a "loss" of currency leaving the country). So, in fact, these services can be deemed an investment for personal gain, rather than for consumption in the traditional sense as the purchase of goods entails.

Now, there are obviously some areas of service export that are a clear benefit to an economy, especially in healthcare, business development etc. As of now, as far as I can tell and I have felt this for awhile, it's not a good metric for the negotiation of NAFTA especially between two economies so closely located as Canada and America. It's a far more relevant measurement between say America and Japan, as you don't have snowbirds, the ease and convenience of crossing borders to send people for education, technical assistance to your own corporations and the like.