Rigged Elections and Voter Fraud - how common is fraud? Not very.

[koshergrl]

So why are you regressives spending so much on lawyers trying to kill these laws, couldn't you put those same funds helping people get their IDs?

Why are you regressives trying so hard to prevent your opponents from voting?

Only the ineligible and illegal, that's not regressive at all.

Nothing regressive in insisting that all eligible voters are able to vote either. So why are you throwing around "regressive regressive regressive"?

Feel free to point out any quote from me that said eligible voters shouldn't be voting. I just want them to prove eligibility. Just like we make you prove you're eligible to buy alcohol, cigarettes, drive, cash a check, open a bank account or any of the thousands of other activities that require proof of eligibility.

I have news, you can actually live & survive in our society without a fricken photo ID.

What does that have to do with requiring those who vote in our society be required to prove they may?

You do know that voting isn't a right, right?

"In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the Court decided the 600,000 or so (mostly black) residents of Washington D.C. have no legal recourse for their complete lack of voting representation in Congress (they have one “representative” in the House who can speak, but cannot vote).

"The Court affirmed the district court’s interpretation that our Constitution “does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.” And it’s state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is “qualified.”

Beyond the Voting Rights Act: Why We Need a Constitutional Right to Vote

 

[OKTexas]

What blows my mind about the voter fraud issue is that the RW didn't even care about this issue before repubs in office expressed faux outrage over it in the 2012 election. For some bizarre reason, USMB cons believe everything republicans in office tell them.

So what are these Republicans telling us?

Look......some of us here have presented multiple stories of voter fraud evidence. I have an entire folder of links. Voter fraud is real.

If you want to talk about what those in office tell us, it's your party that made this into a nonexistent racial thing when race was not even a subject. The reason Democrats do this is because race is such a sensitive issue and expect most to cave in on it.

This has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with party. One law fits all. How much more fair can it be than that?

No one ever said it didn't happen. It's just very rare and therefore doesn't matter. Again, you people didn't give two shits about this issue before repubs in office started whining over it in 2012.

You mean people are rarely caught, the way the system is set up, it encourages fraud, there are no meaningful ways to check citizenship and without ID you have no way to check if it is the person registered.

What?????? You have to give a name. That name must appear in a voting book that dshows they are registered.

And without ID you don't know who is voting. Joe Smith is registered, I walk in and say I'm Joe Smith, what the poll worker has no way of knowing is Joe Smith died yesterday or was in a bad car accident and in the hospital in a coma. How do you stop me for casting Joe Smiths vote and mine, we vote at different locations?

 

[Coyote]

No, the bill would only prove your address theoretically. But using it as one form of ID along with a picture ID should be sufficient. There is no reason to make it as restrictive as some of those laws have been.

One of the problems here is that a voter can use just a utility bill to vote. And if there is a requirement to also have a picture ID, why not a government issued ID?

Because that is where people start to have difficulties and it starts to become unduly burdensome for particular groups of people.

 

[koshergrl]

No, the bill would only prove your address theoretically. But using it as one form of ID along with a picture ID should be sufficient. There is no reason to make it as restrictive as some of those laws have been.

One of the problems here is that a voter can use just a utility bill to vote. And if there is a requirement to also have a picture ID, why not a government issued ID?

Because that is where people start to have difficulties and it starts to become unduly burdensome for particular groups of people.

Only the ones who can't legally vote.

 

[Coyote]

Apples and oranges.

Nebraska, for one.

I don't actually know how many, but even if one does - it calls into question the ID as somehow being proof of citizenship. Required documentation for a permit varies per state.

It's no more reliable than a student ID. But student's tend to vote Democrat...

According to your link, they allow "legal" non-citizens to obtain a permit.

Yes. And even legal non citizens aren't allowed to vote.

 

[koshergrl]

Apples and oranges.

Nebraska, for one.

I don't actually know how many, but even if one does - it calls into question the ID as somehow being proof of citizenship. Required documentation for a permit varies per state.

It's no more reliable than a student ID. But student's tend to vote Democrat...

According to your link, they allow "legal" non-citizens to obtain a permit.

Yes. And even legal non citizens aren't allowed to vote.

so why do you suppose the feds make foodstamp workers send them voter registration information?

Hmmmmm...

 

[Coyote]

It's not the ID itself that is the burden, it is the narrow and restrictive nature of the ID required in some states that disenfranchises voters.

Exactly, and it's those restrictions that are deliberately designed to make it difficult for certain groups of voters who happen tend to vote democrate in Republican controlled states. A lot of thought went into this.

 

[RealDave]

What blows my mind about the voter fraud issue is that the RW didn't even care about this issue before repubs in office expressed faux outrage over it in the 2012 election. For some bizarre reason, USMB cons believe everything republicans in office tell them.

So what are these Republicans telling us?

Look......some of us here have presented multiple stories of voter fraud evidence. I have an entire folder of links. Voter fraud is real.

If you want to talk about what those in office tell us, it's your party that made this into a nonexistent racial thing when race was not even a subject. The reason Democrats do this is because race is such a sensitive issue and expect most to cave in on it.

This has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with party. One law fits all. How much more fair can it be than that?

No one ever said it didn't happen. It's just very rare and therefore doesn't matter. Again, you people didn't give two shits about this issue before repubs in office started whining over it in 2012.

You mean people are rarely caught, the way the system is set up, it encourages fraud, there are no meaningful ways to check citizenship and without ID you have no way to check if it is the person registered.

What?????? You have to give a name. That name must appear in a voting book that dshows they are registered.

And without ID you don't know who is voting. Joe Smith is registered, I walk in and say I'm Joe Smith, what the poll worker has no way of knowing is Joe Smith died yesterday or was in a bad car accident and in the hospital in a coma. How do you stop me for casting Joe Smiths vote and mine, we vote at different locations?

Here in PA, you'd have top sign that book & your signatures compared.

 

[NYcarbineer]

If these people were really concerned about voter fraud as they claim, the first thing they should want done is to get rid of the electoral college.

Nobody knows why?

Because in a close race for president in a particularly large state, if voter fraud were capable of moving a few thousand votes to a different candidate winning,

that candidate would get ALL the electoral votes. Easily enough to change the overall election result.

In a popular vote presidential election, moving a few thousand votes would only gain the candidate a few thousand votes,
not all of a large states electoral votes.

 

[NYcarbineer]

What blows my mind about the voter fraud issue is that the RW didn't even care about this issue before repubs in office expressed faux outrage over it in the 2012 election. For some bizarre reason, USMB cons believe everything republicans in office tell them.

So what are these Republicans telling us?

Look......some of us here have presented multiple stories of voter fraud evidence. I have an entire folder of links. Voter fraud is real.

If you want to talk about what those in office tell us, it's your party that made this into a nonexistent racial thing when race was not even a subject. The reason Democrats do this is because race is such a sensitive issue and expect most to cave in on it.

This has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with party. One law fits all. How much more fair can it be than that?

No one ever said it didn't happen. It's just very rare and therefore doesn't matter. Again, you people didn't give two shits about this issue before repubs in office started whining over it in 2012.

You mean people are rarely caught, the way the system is set up, it encourages fraud, there are no meaningful ways to check citizenship and without ID you have no way to check if it is the person registered.

What?????? You have to give a name. That name must appear in a voting book that dshows they are registered.

And without ID you don't know who is voting. Joe Smith is registered, I walk in and say I'm Joe Smith, what the poll worker has no way of knowing is Joe Smith died yesterday or was in a bad car accident and in the hospital in a coma. How do you stop me for casting Joe Smiths vote and mine, we vote at different locations?

Then issue every voter a registered voter card when he or she registers. Show the card when the person votes.

 

[Coyote]

Citizens alone cannot commit the voter fraud on the large scale. That could be done only by the election officials and by those who are in power over ballot boxes/voting machines/vote counts. That's why voter ID laws are necessary to make sure that only registered voters with proper ID can cast only one vote. Stuffing boxes would be impossible.

Voter ID would have no effect on ballot stuffing.

Clarify.

With voter ID, if there is one vote more counted than person voted, it could be proven that there is a fraud. One.

And in that case, I would void vote for whole precinct and do re-vote with additional oversight. Until it all match.

Ballot stuffing is when one person submits multiple ballots during a vote. ID wouldn't make a difference in that.

Voter ID would prevent exactly that.

By the way, ballot stuffing term is primarily used to describe election official stuffing the ballot box with the additional premarked ballots that favors one side.

And voter ID would prevent that how?

 

[Coyote]

The problem of race is less that it's deliberately racist (other than trying to affect those who tend to vote democrat) then that it's effectively racist (in that those affected by the laws are disproportionately minorities).

One law fits all. Well, that's what the poll tax was, but it was struck down.

No, because a poll tax eliminated people that had no ability to pay. Voter-ID is something everybody can obtain. It may require you to take some effort on your part, but it's far from impossible.

Paying for an ID to vote is effectively the same.

 

[OKTexas]

How?

Getting a photo ID so you can vote is easy. Unless you’re poor, black, Latino or elderly.

Supporters say that everyone should easily be able to get a photo ID and that the requirement is needed to combat voter fraud. But many election experts say that the process for obtaining a photo ID can be far more difficult than it looks for hundreds of thousands of people across the country who do not have the required photo identification cards. Those most likely to be affected are elderly citizens, African Americans, Hispanics and low-income residents.

“A lot of people don’t realize what it takes to obtain an ID without the proper identification and papers,” said Abbie Kamin, a lawyer who has worked with the Campaign Legal Center to help Texans obtain the proper identification to vote. “Many people will give up and not even bother trying to vote.”

A federal court in Texas found that 608,470 registered voters don’t have the forms of identification that the state now requires for voting. For example, residents can vote with their concealed-carry handgun licenses but not their state-issued student university IDs.

Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law.
​

Courts are finally pointing out the racism behind voter ID laws

In North Carolina, the legislature requested racial data on the use of electoral mechanisms, then restricted all those disproportionately used by blacks, such as early voting, same-day registration and out-of-precinct voting. Absentee ballots, disproportionately used by white voters, were exempted from the voter ID requirement. The legislative record actually justified the elimination of one of the two days of Sunday voting because “counties with Sunday voting in 2014 were disproportionately black” and “disproportionately Democratic.”


The documents acceptable for proving voters’ identity in North Carolina were the ones disproportionately held by whites, such as driver’s licenses, U.S. passports, and veteran and military IDs, and the ones that were left out were the ones often held by poor minority voters, such as student IDs, government employee IDs and public assistance IDs. The Texas voter ID law was designed the same way: There, officials accepted concealed-weapon licenses but not student or state employee IDs. The Texas legislature was repeatedly advised of the likely effect on minority voters but rebuffed nearly all amendments that would have eased its harsh impact.​

Blah, blah, blah, blah, typical regressive double speak and situational bullshit.

If a conservative mentions all the minorities on welfare, the left charges out, pointing at more whites being on welfare rolls than minorities.

Now a proposal is made that would effect ALL poor people exactly the same, but no, it's suddenly racist and disproportionately effects only poor minorities.

You fuckers are a real piece of work.

Do you know what disproportionately means? Didn't think so. You whioers are just plain dumber than sh*t.

Yep, I know exactly what it means, I can also recognize bullshit when I see it, and you're full of it.

If you knew what it meant, you would not have made the comment you did.

Say you have a bowl of red & green marbles where it is 20% red.

If I take some out & put them in a different bowl & this bowl had 40% red marbles, then it would be disproportionately Red even though there were more green marbles in both bowls.

Suppose that there are 40% of the people at are Republican & 40% Democrat & 20% other. If we stopped a million people at random from voting, then the resulting loss in votes would coincide with the expected.

If you stop a million poor people from voting, you stop a sample that is disproportionately poor & thereby disproportionately Democrat voters.

Yep, you've lost your marbles.

You're claiming a subset (minoritites) of a subset (the poor), are effected more than the subset(the poor) as a whole. That sir is bullshit.

 

[Coyote]

Like whites, almost 80% of non-white people support voter ID. They clearly aren't buying the lefts condescending racist disenfranchisement conspiracy theory. Good on them

They support voter ID in polls that allow a broad number of ID's to be considered - not the extremely narrow definition supported by the right's attempted disenfranchment activities. The NC laws were struck down with very specific language that included noting how the NC politicians (rightwing) requested and used racial data in the formation of the laws.

Have you read about NC's law?

Appeals court strikes down North Carolina’s voter-ID law

In North Carolina, for instance, the judges at oral arguments noted that government-issued driver’s licenses are an acceptable form of identification but that government-issued public assistance cards — used disproportionately by minorities in the state — are not...

...The panel seemed to say it found the equivalent of a smoking gun. “Before enacting that law, the legislature requested data on the use, by race, of a number of voting practices,” Motz wrote. “Upon receipt of the race data, the General Assembly enacted legislation that restricted voting and registration in five different ways, all of which disproportionately affected African Americans.”
​

Seems pretty difficult to come up with a way of justifying this.

You might want to actually look at the polls you quote, and review the actual wording before crying "conspiracy theory".

 

[OKTexas]

No, the bill would only prove your address theoretically. But using it as one form of ID along with a picture ID should be sufficient. There is no reason to make it as restrictive as some of those laws have been.

One of the problems here is that a voter can use just a utility bill to vote. And if there is a requirement to also have a picture ID, why not a government issued ID?

Because that is where people start to have difficulties and it starts to become unduly burdensome for particular groups of people.

Speeding fines that are set according offense effect the poor disproportionally as a percentage of income, are they discriminatory also? I still don't understand why you regressive keep fighting to allow an ineligible vote to cancel your valid vote by not demanding every safeguard possible.

 

[Coyote]

No, the bill would only prove your address theoretically. But using it as one form of ID along with a picture ID should be sufficient. There is no reason to make it as restrictive as some of those laws have been.

One of the problems here is that a voter can use just a utility bill to vote. And if there is a requirement to also have a picture ID, why not a government issued ID?

Because that is where people start to have difficulties and it starts to become unduly burdensome for particular groups of people.

Speeding fines that are set according offense effect the poor disproportionally as a percentage of income, are they discriminatory also? I still don't understand why you regressive keep fighting to allow an ineligible vote to cancel your valid vote by not demanding every safeguard possible.

Voting is a right, there is a requirement to not unduly make it burdensome for people to exercise that right. Driving a vehicle is not.

 

[OKTexas]

Apples and oranges.

Nebraska, for one.

I don't actually know how many, but even if one does - it calls into question the ID as somehow being proof of citizenship. Required documentation for a permit varies per state.

It's no more reliable than a student ID. But student's tend to vote Democrat...

According to your link, they allow "legal" non-citizens to obtain a permit.

Yes. And even legal non citizens aren't allowed to vote.

You mean they're aren't supposed to vote, the WI mall shooter voted in 3 elections even though he wasn't supposed to. It was discovered only after he committed another crime. How many more are out there like him?

 

[OKTexas]

So what are these Republicans telling us?

Look......some of us here have presented multiple stories of voter fraud evidence. I have an entire folder of links. Voter fraud is real.

If you want to talk about what those in office tell us, it's your party that made this into a nonexistent racial thing when race was not even a subject. The reason Democrats do this is because race is such a sensitive issue and expect most to cave in on it.

This has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with party. One law fits all. How much more fair can it be than that?

No one ever said it didn't happen. It's just very rare and therefore doesn't matter. Again, you people didn't give two shits about this issue before repubs in office started whining over it in 2012.

You mean people are rarely caught, the way the system is set up, it encourages fraud, there are no meaningful ways to check citizenship and without ID you have no way to check if it is the person registered.

What?????? You have to give a name. That name must appear in a voting book that dshows they are registered.

And without ID you don't know who is voting. Joe Smith is registered, I walk in and say I'm Joe Smith, what the poll worker has no way of knowing is Joe Smith died yesterday or was in a bad car accident and in the hospital in a coma. How do you stop me for casting Joe Smiths vote and mine, we vote at different locations?

Here in PA, you'd have top sign that book & your signatures compared.

They don't check signatures here, you just sign a computer printout.

 

[OKTexas]

So what are these Republicans telling us?

Look......some of us here have presented multiple stories of voter fraud evidence. I have an entire folder of links. Voter fraud is real.

If you want to talk about what those in office tell us, it's your party that made this into a nonexistent racial thing when race was not even a subject. The reason Democrats do this is because race is such a sensitive issue and expect most to cave in on it.

This has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with party. One law fits all. How much more fair can it be than that?

No one ever said it didn't happen. It's just very rare and therefore doesn't matter. Again, you people didn't give two shits about this issue before repubs in office started whining over it in 2012.

You mean people are rarely caught, the way the system is set up, it encourages fraud, there are no meaningful ways to check citizenship and without ID you have no way to check if it is the person registered.

What?????? You have to give a name. That name must appear in a voting book that dshows they are registered.

And without ID you don't know who is voting. Joe Smith is registered, I walk in and say I'm Joe Smith, what the poll worker has no way of knowing is Joe Smith died yesterday or was in a bad car accident and in the hospital in a coma. How do you stop me for casting Joe Smiths vote and mine, we vote at different locations?

Then issue every voter a registered voter card when he or she registers. Show the card when the person votes.

Ok, I'm Joe Smiths kid, I just take the card out of his wallet and vote for him.

 

[Coyote]

Apples and oranges.

Nebraska, for one.

I don't actually know how many, but even if one does - it calls into question the ID as somehow being proof of citizenship. Required documentation for a permit varies per state.

It's no more reliable than a student ID. But student's tend to vote Democrat...

According to your link, they allow "legal" non-citizens to obtain a permit.

Yes. And even legal non citizens aren't allowed to vote.

You mean they're aren't supposed to vote, the WI mall shooter voted in 3 elections even though he wasn't supposed to. It was discovered only after he committed another crime. How many more are out there like him?

Sure. And you are always going to find those who break the laws, or who inadvertently think they are elegible or who end up being disenfranchised, as in examples I gave.

The issue is how to balance the need to maintain public confidence in our elections vs. the right of citizens to vote in an election- that's the trick.

It seems to me that voter ID laws CAN be made to address both concerns fairly, but they clearly aren't in a number of situations - NC and Texas being two examples of extremely restrictive voter ID laws (amongst OTHER voting changes) that are unjust.