Retiring the A-10

[para bellum]

Actually, air defense RADAR is rarely more than a few meters off of the ground. And nothing close to 30 feet.

We don't have an equivalent, but Russian radar masts are ubiquitous.

This is an S-300 battery's "Flap Lid and "Clam Shell" radars mounted on the mast. (btw, these extend up to 24m)

 

[Zincwarrior]

After repeatedly blocking the US Air Force's attempts to retire the A-10 Thunderbolt II, Congress late last year approved a plan to decommission 21 of the venerable ground-attack aircraft, which is the only US military aircraft purpose-built for close air support.

Those retirements would shrink the Air Force's A-10 fleet to 260 aircraft, and Air Force leaders plan to continue decommissioning A-10s in the years ahead.

Air Force officials have said they want to replace the A-10, affectionately known as the Warthog, with the F-35 as the service's primary close-air-support aircraft.

MSN

comment:
The A-10 can do things that no other plane can do.
But it is a very old plane design.
The first ones flew 50 years ago.
Maybe they will keep them in the A.F. Reserves.

As you note, its a very old airframe. The cannon is now irrelevant given the guided missiles and advanced targeting packages it has.

A newer frame could be developed easily in both manned and unmanned variant.

 

[JohnDB]

Unfortunately A-10's are obsolete....

Shame too....ugly plane but devastating firepower.

Today with swarm tech drones the A-10 just isn't needed anymore....and pilot's lives aren't risked. With swarm tech you can send a couple of the hundreds of drones off to stop the EW and then target the rest for close support without missing a beat.
And with drones the costs are much much lower than turbofan aircraft. You can literally send up hundreds of drones for the cost of one A-10. And some kid in a cubicle thousands of miles away from the battle front is flying the thing. He doesn't have to be that far away....but he doesn't get exposed to enemy munitions either when that far away. And he doesn't die when his airplane crashes.

 

[DudleySmith]

I think drones will eventually dominate, and have said so many times, but currently human eyeballs are still the best for some missions, including CAS. Given our decline, we probably won't see drones take over completely, we will collapse in another 10 years, if that long in the future. We're already in banana republic mode, and sliding fast. We off-shored a lot of technical skills and manufacturing bases, and have gone from over 50 sizable aerospace companies to 5. Good luck with all those Star Wars fantasies; they are going to remain in the realm of fiction without a major turnaround in the U.S.

 

[DudleySmith]

Unfortunately A-10's are obsolete....

Shame too....ugly plane but devastating firepower.

Today with swarm tech drones the A-10 just isn't needed anymore....and pilot's lives aren't risked. With swarm tech you can send a couple of the hundreds of drones off to stop the EW and then target the rest for close support without missing a beat.
And with drones the costs are much much lower than turbofan aircraft. You can literally send up hundreds of drones for the cost of one A-10. And some kid in a cubicle thousands of miles away from the battle front is flying the thing. He doesn't have to be that far away....but he doesn't get exposed to enemy munitions either when that far away. And he doesn't die when his airplane crashes.

That is what bio-wars and 5th columnists are for, taking care of eliminating such far away threats.

 

[JohnDB]

I think drones will eventually dominate, and have said so many times, but currently human eyeballs are still the best for some missions, including CAS. Given our decline, we probably won't see drones take over completely, we will collapse in another 10 years, if that long in the future. We're already in banana republic mode, and sliding fast. We off-shored a lot of technical skills and manufacturing bases, and have gone from over 50 sizable aerospace companies to 5. Good luck with all those Star Wars fantasies; they are going to remain in the realm of fiction without a major turnaround in the U.S.

You are correct in that the lines move....but not in its movement in only one direction. It's a pendulum in movement because both sides can't help but try to push it too far when they get their way. The backswing is always brutal and makes somebody cry. Take one look at the SCOTUS decisions of late (or at least the buzz about them) and it's plain and obvious.

Tech is no different. People try to go too far too soon with tech that doesn't really work well yet due to design flaws or limitations.

We'll see what happens when the pendulum swings the opposite way.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The A-10 is being retired very soon no matter what the A-10 follower do or say. It doesn't have a war it's going to excel at anymore. And as simple as the bird is, it actually is cost prohibitive to operate. Yes, there are higher birds that can operate but the new Turboprop Attacks operate at less than a third of what the A-10 does and they have more range and loiter time.

The original idea was to find a replacement for the A-1E and that is a tough bird to replace. The A-10 did replace it as long as it didn't have to go very far or hang out so long. The A-1E was 2/3rds the speed but it could fly for hours on end and then orbit for a few hours on top of that. But, like most Recips, it had a high operation cost. While it impressed the hell out of everyone, it could only do it one flight per day and it spend the next few hours with the Mechs combing over it especially the engine. Believe it or not, for the low tech fights of Iraq and Afhanistan, the A-1E would have been an improvement over the A-10 except the cost to operate it would have been high. Then they got the idea of using it against armor. Works pretty good for t-55s and early t-62s but when they uparmored, that big 30mm gun could only do damage from the rear. Plus, the Tanks from Modified T-62s and up could shoot back with the cannons because they had the optics to do so. So the A-10 was now just used for Coin and Ground Suppression and against lighter armor and vehicles. All of a sudden, the turboprop attack birds could actually do a better job at the job that the A-10 was relegated to.


It's days are numbered just as soon as congress stops protecting it. The USAF would have never had it in the inventory in the first place as the A-7E was actually a far superior bird when the A-10 was adopted. They rigged the flyoff against the A-7E to favor the A-10.

The A-10 was used a lot in the latest middle east conflict.

 

[Vrenn]

The A-10 was used a lot in the latest middle east conflict.

Yes, a war where the US had complete air superiority. We may not see too many of those come along anymore.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, a war where the US had complete air superiority. We may not see too many of those come along anymore.

The US only ever goes to wars where it thinks it'll have an easy time. Look at Iran, the US has been itching to invade for decades, and still hasn't.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Yes, a war where the US had complete air superiority. We may not see too many of those come along anymore.

Gaining air superiority is the foundation of how we fight.
First we bomb the living shit out of them and then move in with aircraft to control the skies.
I dont see that changing anytime soon considering we have the best aircraft on the planet.

 

[JohnDB]

The US only ever goes to wars where it thinks it'll have an easy time. Look at Iran, the US has been itching to invade for decades, and still hasn't.

That is precisely what the whole "Trump leaks secret documents" is centered on.

The MIC wanted Trump to start a war with Iran and invade so the Democrats could call him a bully and warmonger. Trump felt like he, himself was being bullied and cornered and completely refused. And Trump blew up in his normal fashion from the pressuring...started waving sheets of invasion plans everywhere and hollering and yelling in classic Trump fashion. (Just like he used to do in Jersey and NYC...back when his first wife was cutting his balls off and divorcing him)

That's the story.
We don't need to start any wars. (IMHO)
We just need to finish them.

 

[frigidweirdo]

That is precisely what the whole "Trump leaks secret documents" is centered on.

The MIC wanted Trump to start a war with Iran and invade so the Democrats could call him a bully and warmonger. Trump felt like he, himself was being bullied and cornered and completely refused. And Trump blew up in his normal fashion from the pressuring...started waving sheets of invasion plans everywhere and hollering and yelling in classic Trump fashion. (Just like he used to do in Jersey and NYC...back when his first wife was cutting his balls off and divorcing him)

That's the story.
We don't need to start any wars. (IMHO)
We just need to finish them.

Nice fiction.

 

[JohnDB]

Nice fiction.

What?
You got a different story?

 

[frigidweirdo]

What?
You got a different story?

Yeah, it involves penguins.

 

[Vrenn]

Gaining air superiority is the foundation of how we fight.
First we bomb the living shit out of them and then move in with aircraft to control the skies.
I dont see that changing anytime soon considering we have the best aircraft on the planet.

Yes, against 3rd world countries with second grade militaries. China and Russia won't be playing that game. And that is the reason we have such a massive military and spend the billions on it.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Yes, against 3rd world countries with second grade militaries. China and Russia won't be playing that game. And that is the reason we have such a massive military and spend the billions on it.

It certainly looks like russia isnt going to be an issue.
And the same can be said about china.
If you do a search on the number of aircraft we have compared to either of them you'll see that we not only have better aircraft we also out number them by a large margin.

 

[Mushroom]

We don't have an equivalent, but Russian radar masts are ubiquitous.

This is an S-300 battery's "Flap Lid and "Clam Shell" radars mounted on the mast. (btw, these extend up to 24m)

And those are the exception in Air Defense, and not the ones that are actually used most times.

The image above I posted? That is what the most common RADAR they use is, the 64N6E2. Yes, they do also have an enormous mast system like you show, but that takes a hell of a lot of time to set up and take down, so do not expect to see those at anything other than an installation defending an air base. And it still can not see as long as you think, because it can't see past the curvature of the earth. Anything beyond that point is invisible.

 

[Mushroom]

The cannon is now irrelevant given the guided missiles and advanced targeting packages it has.

It is a CAS aircraft. One as a general rule does not use guided missiles in CAS.

That argument makes about as much sense as claiming guns are irrelevant because we have artillery and missiles.

 

[Mushroom]

Yes, a war where the US had complete air superiority. We may not see too many of those come along anymore.

Actually, helicopters and aircraft like the A-10 are still useful even if we do not. So long as we have not given up air superiority most of the air to air fighters are going to be too busy seeking out each other to mess with the slower movers close to the ground.

 

[Vrenn]

Gaining air superiority is the foundation of how we fight.
First we bomb the living shit out of them and then move in with aircraft to control the skies.
I dont see that changing anytime soon considering we have the best aircraft on the planet.

Yes, against 3rd world countries with second grade militaries. China and Russia won't be playing that game. And that is the reason we have such a massive military and spend the billions on it.

It certainly looks like russia isnt going to be an issue.
And the same can be said about china.
If you do a search on the number of aircraft we have compared to either of them you'll see that we not only have better aircraft we also out number them by a large margin.

And we had better rely on the Naval Resources since the land based (not counting the long range bombers) are going to need to be involved in a chain of inflight refueling to get there and back.You can't rely on the F-22, hundreds of F-16s and the F-15 force.