Religion, how I hate thee

[Neser Boha]

HOWEVER, what I do not understand and what grosses me out is a person's adherence to that one religion such as Islam that they are willing to put everyone else down because of the misguided and totally WRONG notion that they are made somehow better by that certain religion! I would NEVER, EVER flaunt something as unclearly good/wrong, normal/perverse as religion is. I would NEVER subscribe to something that allows three-year-olds to be fucked by a grown man ... or something that praises a clear PEDOFILE. Yes, I am especially bewildered by what is happening to innocent children in these books.

'Aishah (RA), even if we were to assume that she was nine when she began living with the Messenger (SAWS) and his family in Madinah, was extremely fortunate that she married someone who didn't allow her intellect to go to waste. Modern non-Muslims denounce this marriage frequently, but can they point to anything negative that came of it? It was a happy marriage and one that ultimately resulted in 'Aishah's own political and religious leadership and her transmission of an enormous amount of information that would form the basis of Islamic law.

So, you are basically saying you would be ok with someone 'marrying' your nine-year-old daughter? Or what are you saying? The man that sexually abused a friend of mine from the age of 5 until the age of 9 also cared of her education, claimed he 'loved her', bought her things ... which doesn't change anything about THE FACT he was and still is a SICK bastard. While life and world is not black and white, some things are simply either right .... or wrong. And in this case I think it goes without a debate.

And no, I would personally not be able to get over the fact that my prophet, the perfect man that I'm supposed to follow, fucked a child. Which doesn't mean that everything that he taught was totally wrong ... I would simply not be able to find it in me to call myself 'muslim' if that entailed my 'prophet' being a perv. But then, I guess we don't know that for sure and maybe you 'believe' in your bleeding heart of hearts ... that he wasn't.

And maybe, just maybe, it's all just bullshit to begin and end with.

 

[tigerbob]

This is just a rant.

Yes, before I wrote this, I did get pissed off.

Yes, this is stream-of-consciousness sort of thing.

__________________

I will never understand how can so many intelligent, sensible human beings spend energy and time on such an idiotic thing as religion.

All religions are fucked-up, wrong and have caused more evil than good. All of them. There is some sick-ass shit in all the holy books of the world that you all revere so much. In Talmud, it is spelled out, that one can 'acquire a three-year-old maiden in marriage through coition,' Mohammed was himself a pedophile, and we all know what evil crap is in the bible ... the worst of it in the Old Testament. And what about the caste system in Indian societies that was directly created from Hinduism?

Why would anyone be proud of belonging to any of these vile 'philosophies'? To these 'sets of beliefs' that include such disgusting shit as the examples I mentioned? Why would anyone be proud of being Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu? If you are religious, answer me then, what does 'your religion' have to do with you personally? How can you be proud of something you personally have NOTHING to do with? You did not create it, you probably do not even believe most of it (I doubt most Jews even know of the above-mentioned Talmud passage, for example) ... then how can you really 'belong to it', 'subscribe to it' or even 'be proud of it'?

I'm searching for LOGIC here!

It's bewildering and boggles my mind that so many extremely intelligent people that have so many talents and such a great capacity for learning would squander it on such an IDIOTIC thing as religion is.

I'm disgusted by the fact.

I'm looking forward to all the 'fire and brimstone' from all you innocent pious (uber) people.

If you want to insult my beliefs that's fine, it's a free country, but why claim you're looking for logic, trying to understand?

BTW, it's not the religions that are harmful, it's the things people do in the name of religion that are harmful. It's sort of like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.

Insult your beliefs? Beliefs can't be insulted ... that's illogical. I can insult YOU and you only. And no, I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm venting. I think I made that clear.

... "guns don't kill people, people kill people, but guns help"

The fact is that I think it's actually ok for an intelligent person to follow a religion, as long as that same person ACKNOWLEDGES that some parts of the religion's sacred texts, history, etc. is supremely FUCKED UP and is very open about disagreeing with those parts and is OPEN to criticism of the religion itself (unless, of course, one IS a-ok with fucking three-year-olds or killing infidels*, in which case he/she is a sick bastard dangerous to society.). In short, I can't tolerate BLIND FAITH.

I just despise the simple-minded: "I is a xtian and proud aaaav it and I dount care whatcha say!" Which is the attitude many religious people adopt that is actually offensive ... I get offended by idiocy and intellectual sloth - people that refuse to THINK for themselves and are willing to let others stuff bunch of shit down their throats instead of using that shriveling mass inside their skulls.

Everything, even faith, needs to be approached with - if not logic - at least intelligence and sensibility, it can't be just blindly swallowed. I can actually see it as 'the opium of the masses' - yes, the masses of idiots that are unwilling to take a CRITICAL look at what they actually believe or the TEXTS they REVERE - or the "prophets" they call 'PERFECT'.

*exaggeration for purposes of illustration, I'm not actually sure if any religion sanctions killing infidels.

Touché on the "insulting beliefs" thing.

I don't think one can follow faith with logic. Sensibility yes, but faith is not logical. It is deeply personal, highly emotional and, when all's said and done, in many cases pretty irrational.

I can't speak for other religions, but I believe that as far as Christianity is concerned the Old Testament has a lot of good things to teach us. At the same time, it also has a lot of things in it that do seem questionable at best, pretty fucked up at worst. I don't attempt to defend it.

But, there are one hell of a lot of people out there that give up their time, their money, their effort to try and see to it that those who are less fortunate have a better quality of life. These people don't ask for thanks, they don't ask for support and they don't try to convert you. They don't even expect people to be grateful. In many cases, they're not.

It's a shame that when some people choose to talk about religion, all they talk about is the negative. But this is arguably, to a degree, the fault of some adherents of that religion who view it as their job to push their views down the throats of others and sit in judgement when it's really not their job to do so.

 

[Kalam]

So, you are basically saying you would be ok with someone 'marrying' your nine-year-old daughter?

If he was one of God's apostles and we lived in a society that considered her marriageable, yes.

Or what are you saying? The man that sexually abused a friend of mine from the age of 5 until the age of 9 also cared of her education, claimed he 'loved her', bought her things ... which doesn't change anything about THE FACT he was and still is a SICK bastard.

While life and world is not black and white, some things are simply either right .... or wrong. And in this case I think it goes without a debate.

I think that judging a person who lived in 7th century Arabia according to the cultural nuances of the 21st century Western world is a bit illogical. Some moral principles are universal across all legitimate cultures and civilized periods of history; others, such as the age of majority, have been highly variable. It should be noted that the reported age of 'Aishah (RA) was never an object of criticism before the 20th century, because the marriage of young girls was a common and accepted practice among Westerners as well.

And no, I would personally not be able to get over the fact that my prophet, the perfect man that I'm supposed to follow, fucked a child.

Marriage does not imply the immediate commencement of a sexual relationship and 'Aishah's reported age varies from source to source.

Which doesn't mean that everything that he taught was totally wrong ... I would simply not be able to find it in me to call myself 'muslim' if that entailed my 'prophet' being a perv.

A pervert is a person with abnormal sexual preferences; this did not apply to Muhammad (SAWS). The age of his wives spans quite a range, with 'Aishah being the youngest and Khadija being the oldest at fifteen years his senior (40 at the time of their marriage.) Even if marrying young girls was abnormal in 7th century Arabia, which it certainly wasn't, "pedophilia" and "perversion" imply a sexual preference for pre-pubescent girls. If he married 'Aishah because he was sexually attracted to her, more of his wives would have been young. None before or after her were.

But then, I guess we don't know that for sure and maybe you 'believe' in your bleeding heart of hearts ... that he wasn't.

A pervert? Not in the least.

And maybe, just maybe, it's all just bullshit to begin and end with.

It's impossible for me to reach that conclusion knowing what I know.

 

[Neser Boha]

So, you are basically saying you would be ok with someone 'marrying' your nine-year-old daughter?

If he was one of God's apostles and we lived in a society that considered her marriageable, yes.

Or what are you saying? The man that sexually abused a friend of mine from the age of 5 until the age of 9 also cared of her education, claimed he 'loved her', bought her things ... which doesn't change anything about THE FACT he was and still is a SICK bastard.

While life and world is not black and white, some things are simply either right .... or wrong. And in this case I think it goes without a debate.

I think that judging a person who lived in 7th century Arabia according to the cultural nuances of the 21st century Western world is a bit illogical. Some moral principles are universal across all legitimate cultures and civilized periods of history; others, such as the age of majority, have been highly variable. It should be noted that the reported age of 'Aishah (RA) was never an object of criticism before the 20th century, because the marriage of young girls was a common and accepted practice among Westerners as well.


Marriage does not imply the immediate commencement of a sexual relationship and 'Aishah's reported age varies from source to source.


A pervert is a person with abnormal sexual preferences; this did not apply to Muhammad (SAWS). The age of his wives spans quite a range, with 'Aishah being the youngest and Khadija being the oldest at fifteen years his senior (40 at the time of their marriage.) Even if marrying young girls was abnormal in 7th century Arabia, which it certainly wasn't, "pedophilia" and "perversion" imply a sexual preference for pre-pubescent girls. If he married 'Aishah because he was sexually attracted to her, more of his wives would have been young. None before or after her were.

But then, I guess we don't know that for sure and maybe you 'believe' in your bleeding heart of hearts ... that he wasn't.

A pervert? Not in the least.

And maybe, just maybe, it's all just bullshit to begin and end with.

It's impossible for me to reach that conclusion knowing what I know.

You do have a point there with age and social norms. But that just shows how antiquated and out of touch with modernity and 'our current reality' religion is.

That about your daughter is a little ... off though.

Also, I'm wondering ... how is 'knowing what you know' working out for you? Is it making your life - and the lives of others - any better?

 

[Kalam]

You do have a point there with age and social norms. But that just shows how antiquated and out of touch with modernity and 'our current reality' religion is.

I'm not sure that I see how. We don't find in the Qur'an or in the authentic teachings of Muhammad any enjoinment to marry young girls. The age of marriageability is identified with the age of majority, which is obviously higher today than it has been in the past.

That about your daughter is a little ... off though.

Keep in mind that the final prophet came 1400 years ago. I also don't have a daughter... I'll wait until I'm older and married to have children.

Also, I'm wondering ... how is 'knowing what you know' working out for you? Is it making your life - and the lives of others - any better?

Absolutely. Becoming more religious made me a happier person and helped me improve my relationships with my friends, Muslim and non-Muslim.

 

[Neser Boha]

If you want to insult my beliefs that's fine, it's a free country, but why claim you're looking for logic, trying to understand?

BTW, it's not the religions that are harmful, it's the things people do in the name of religion that are harmful. It's sort of like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.

Insult your beliefs? Beliefs can't be insulted ... that's illogical. I can insult YOU and you only. And no, I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm venting. I think I made that clear.

... "guns don't kill people, people kill people, but guns help"

The fact is that I think it's actually ok for an intelligent person to follow a religion, as long as that same person ACKNOWLEDGES that some parts of the religion's sacred texts, history, etc. is supremely FUCKED UP and is very open about disagreeing with those parts and is OPEN to criticism of the religion itself (unless, of course, one IS a-ok with fucking three-year-olds or killing infidels*, in which case he/she is a sick bastard dangerous to society.). In short, I can't tolerate BLIND FAITH.

I just despise the simple-minded: "I is a xtian and proud aaaav it and I dount care whatcha say!" Which is the attitude many religious people adopt that is actually offensive ... I get offended by idiocy and intellectual sloth - people that refuse to THINK for themselves and are willing to let others stuff bunch of shit down their throats instead of using that shriveling mass inside their skulls.

Everything, even faith, needs to be approached with - if not logic - at least intelligence and sensibility, it can't be just blindly swallowed. I can actually see it as 'the opium of the masses' - yes, the masses of idiots that are unwilling to take a CRITICAL look at what they actually believe or the TEXTS they REVERE - or the "prophets" they call 'PERFECT'.

*exaggeration for purposes of illustration, I'm not actually sure if any religion sanctions killing infidels.

Touché on the "insulting beliefs" thing.

I don't think one can follow faith with logic. Sensibility yes, but faith is not logical. It is deeply personal, highly emotional and, when all's said and done, in many cases pretty irrational.

I can't speak for other religions, but I believe that as far as Christianity is concerned the Old Testament has a lot of good things to teach us. At the same time, it also has a lot of things in it that do seem questionable at best, pretty fucked up at worst. I don't attempt to defend it.

But, there are one hell of a lot of people out there that give up their time, their money, their effort to try and see to it that those who are less fortunate have a better quality of life. These people don't ask for thanks, they don't ask for support and they don't try to convert you. They don't even expect people to be grateful. In many cases, they're not.

It's a shame that when some people choose to talk about religion, all they talk about is the negative. But this is arguably, to a degree, the fault of some adherents of that religion who view it as their job to push their views down the throats of others and sit in judgement when it's really not their job to do so.

I'm glad I can see we're in agreement. I wish more people had your attitude.

And when it comes to being always critical of religion ... I've said it before - probably not here on the discussion forum because I come here mostly just to vent, but certainly in real life - that I can see a real value in certain things certain religions teach.

Some of it even I 'adopted' or 'use' in certain situations. For example, I do believe in some sort of 'afterlife' and even play with the idea of 'past and future lives after this life'. I also think that karma makes quite a bit of sense and helps me deal with certain situations in life that are otherwise pretty much impossible to understand and bear (usually something 'unjust' or 'unusually cruel).

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Scientists cannot deny the existence of God. Why? Because then the science would have no conscience, and you could end up with some really nasty stuff.

yeah, yeah, yeah... atheists have no reason to not be rapists and murderers... we've heard it all before. You know where you can stick it.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

but allie...my religion makes no claims that scientific accounts for, say, evolution, are inaccurate. my whole argument is that there's no necessity for conflict between science and religion. nevertheless, fundamental sects of religions established during a time when religion was the dominant source of 'science', tend to differ, and are vehemently juxt'd against science.

similarly, atheists try to wield science against religion, but seem to only account for this role of faith, excluding ritual, culture spirituality and community.

Atheism relies upon nothing BUT faith...

Fail.


But you've already had your ass handed to you on numerous occasions. It's common knowledge that you have no interest in honest discussion and you're shut off to anything that counters your rhetoric and preconceived stupidity.

Go play bananas with Ray Comfort.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Scientists cannot deny the existence of God. Why? Because then the science would have no conscience, and you could end up with some really nasty stuff.

yeah, yeah, yeah... atheists have no reason to not be rapists and murderers... we've heard it all before. You know where you can stick it.

You're right. But, nor do they have the ability to NOT be rapists and murderers.

But then again.........Copernicus and Galileo were heretics.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Scientists cannot deny the existence of God. Why? Because then the science would have no conscience, and you could end up with some really nasty stuff.

yeah, yeah, yeah... atheists have no reason to not be rapists and murderers... we've heard it all before. You know where you can stick it.

You're right. But, nor do they have the ability to NOT be rapists and murderers.

What?

So every single atheist is a rapist and a murderer because they have no ability to not rape and murder?

Are you retarded? Honest question.

And you wonder why nobody takes anything you say seriously.

 

[Hawkins]

However, I think that most of you missed the main point of my rant and that is: How can you (for example) be proud and even proselytize being Jewish when one or all of your holy books are full to the brim with vile perversions such as fucking an infant, fucking one's daughters, killing one's son (for the faith in god?), etcetera.

Let me hint you this, the Jews in that period of time are just as cruel as everyone else, they are just as cruel as their enemies. Or else they won't be able to survive themselves in human history. The egyptians killed the Jews' first born children just because they felt that the Jews are over-populated.

So no matter which branch of human race God is going to bury the seed of salvation, that branch of humans may have to have this kind of history. God allows this to happen because He wants the Jews (or whatever) to survive the history and to bring forward the salvation message. Because in the end, everyone dies physically in way or another. You dying in the hospital bed won't gurrantee that you will be less painful. Everyone dies one way or another, God's job is to save souls. A branch of human is acted as the message carrier such that His salvation plan will be feasible.

In that period of time, the Jews were just slaves perhaps with no concept of Law, they obey masters instead of law. And as slaves, their masters can take whatever from them, f**king their babies shouldn't be any exception. The Jews changed later on after Moses brought them the Law and they settled themselves in the land of Caanan.

 

[Hawkins]

I'm searching for LOGIC here!

I think first you need to accept the fact that humans' reasoning capability is limited. What lacks an explanation at the moment doesn't mean that it doesn't have an explanation. So it doesn't seem to be that logical to disregard a religion of faith just because of the lack of an explanation at the moment by the limited human minds.

 

[ABikerSailor]

However, I think that most of you missed the main point of my rant and that is: How can you (for example) be proud and even proselytize being Jewish when one or all of your holy books are full to the brim with vile perversions such as fucking an infant, fucking one's daughters, killing one's son (for the faith in god?), etcetera.

Let me hint you this, the Jews in that period of time are just as cruel as everyone else, they are just as cruel as their enemies. Or else they won't be able to survive themselves in human history. The egyptians killed the Jews' first born children just because they felt that the Jews are over-populated.

So no matter which branch of human race God is going to bury the seed of salvation, that branch of humans may have to have this kind of history. God allows this to happen because He wants the Jews (or whatever) to survive the history and to bring forward the salvation message. Because in the end, everyone dies physically in way or another. You dying in the hospital bed won't gurrantee that you will be less painful. Everyone dies one way or another, God's job is to save souls. A branch of human is acted as the message carrier such that His salvation plan will be feasible.

In that period of time, the Jews were just slaves perhaps with no concept of Law, they obey masters instead of law. And as slaves, their masters can take whatever from them, f**king their babies shouldn't be any exception. The Jews changed later on after Moses brought them the Law and they settled themselves in the land of Caanan.

You don't know very much about Judaic history or theology, do you Hawkins?

If so, you wouldn't have posted such horribly wrong crap. You're Christian as well, I'd wager.

No...........the Jews are people just like everyone else, with one exception.

Abraham.

What did Abraham do? He watched the world, and when he finally saw God's handiwork, he started to talk to Him. Because Abraham figured out who the One True God was, he was blessed by God, and the blessing carried on to Abraham's lineage to this day.

It's in the Jewish religion.

Now........the Jews aren't people who are "better", they're just people who have a covenant with God. Yes, they messed up along the way a few times (destruction of both Temples), but God still keeps His covenant with them.

Around 2,000 years ago, God wanted to do 2 things.......straighten out the High Priests of Jerusalem, and make salvation available to the Gentiles (everyone not Jewish), so He sent Yeshua.

Might wanna actually do some research into your posts (or at least include some critical thinking), before posting crap like you did.

There are Jews on this board dude, and some will correct you quick.

 

[amrchaos]

This is just a rant.

Yes, before I wrote this, I did get pissed off.

Yes, this is stream-of-consciousness sort of thing.

__________________

I will never understand how can so many intelligent, sensible human beings spend energy and time on such an idiotic thing as religion.

All religions are fucked-up, wrong and have caused more evil than good. All of them. There is some sick-ass shit in all the holy books of the world that you all revere so much. In Talmud, it is spelled out, that one can 'acquire a three-year-old maiden in marriage through coition,' Mohammed was himself a pedophile, and we all know what evil crap is in the bible ... the worst of it in the Old Testament. And what about the caste system in Indian societies that was directly created from Hinduism?

Why would anyone be proud of belonging to any of these vile 'philosophies'? To these 'sets of beliefs' that include such disgusting shit as the examples I mentioned? Why would anyone be proud of being Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu? If you are religious, answer me then, what does 'your religion' have to do with you personally? How can you be proud of something you personally have NOTHING to do with? You did not create it, you probably do not even believe most of it (I doubt most Jews even know of the above-mentioned Talmud passage, for example) ... then how can you really 'belong to it', 'subscribe to it' or even 'be proud of it'?

I'm searching for LOGIC here!

It's bewildering and boggles my mind that so many extremely intelligent people that have so many talents and such a great capacity for learning would squander it on such an IDIOTIC thing as religion is.

I'm disgusted by the fact.

I'm looking forward to all the 'fire and brimstone' from all you innocent pious (uber) people.

I am not religious, but I think I can answer your question


Religion tends to provide a reason to its members. It tends to bind people through a sense of purpose, identity and understanding of the universe. notice it does not matter if it is true or not, as long as it gives the follower a working perception of reality.

People grab ahold of religion because they want to hold on to something that will give their lives a "meaning" or "purpose" that they may find lacking without it. Or, in short Religion serves to "enrich" the life, as a theologian once told me.

 

[ABikerSailor]

yeah, yeah, yeah... atheists have no reason to not be rapists and murderers... we've heard it all before. You know where you can stick it.

You're right. But, nor do they have the ability to NOT be rapists and murderers.

What?

So every single atheist is a rapist and a murderer because they have no ability to not rape and murder?

Are you retarded? Honest question.

And you wonder why nobody takes anything you say seriously.

I got my words tripped up. My problem is with anyone that thinks religion will make them "better" when in many cases it makes them worse, and why people without religion are going to go out and rape and kill just because they don't have religion.

It's not because you do or do not have religion, it's because you are a sentient being who can think for yourself.

Religion has nothing to do with keeping you from doing horrible acts. Look at Torquemada and what he did for religion.

 

[prinx]

Religion is what you make of it. It is your faith in something that gets you through. For me it is my faith in God that gets me through the tough times and I know in the good times he is there for me. I am Catholic but do not practice my religion because I do not believe in the constraints of the church. I am a prayerful man and do love God with all my heart and soul. I have God in my life because he has created me and I know that when I do die I will inherit his kingdom in Heaven.
Religion is the belief in a system of theology, faith is believing with your whole body and soul that there is something greater than us.
I hope this is helpful to you.

 

[Kalam]

In that period of time, the Jews were just slaves perhaps with no concept of Law, they obey masters instead of law. And as slaves, their masters can take whatever from them, f**king their babies shouldn't be any exception. The Jews changed later on after Moses brought them the Law and they settled themselves in the land of Caanan.

The passage NB referred to came from the Talmud, the orally transmitted part of the Torah. It is supposed to have come from Moses (A.S.) as well.

 

[ABikerSailor]

In that period of time, the Jews were just slaves perhaps with no concept of Law, they obey masters instead of law. And as slaves, their masters can take whatever from them, f**king their babies shouldn't be any exception. The Jews changed later on after Moses brought them the Law and they settled themselves in the land of Caanan.

The passage NB referred to came from the Talmud, the orally transmitted part of the Torah. It is supposed to have come from Moses (A.S.) as well.

Are you sure that it didn't come from Abraham?

 

[Kalam]

In that period of time, the Jews were just slaves perhaps with no concept of Law, they obey masters instead of law. And as slaves, their masters can take whatever from them, f**king their babies shouldn't be any exception. The Jews changed later on after Moses brought them the Law and they settled themselves in the land of Caanan.

The passage NB referred to came from the Talmud, the orally transmitted part of the Torah. It is supposed to have come from Moses (A.S.) as well.

Are you sure that it didn't come from Abraham?

Rabbinic Jews, which is to say "mainstream" Jews, believe that the Talmud was given to Moses (AS) on Sinai along with the written law.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Actually, it was the Torah that was given to Moshe on Sinai.