Religion and Ethics - The topic of this USMB Discussion is an "oxymoron"

[Boss]

Let's turn this argument into a simple logic test based on all his posts:

Boss argues that ethics and morality are due to religion.

Boss does not believe in a religion.

Therefore Boss has no ethics or morality...

No. Boss believes that ethics, morality AND religion are all manifest from our unique spirituality. You again show a view where generalizations are applied with broad strokes. People are different, things happen in degrees. Ethics and morality are ever-changing and vary from culture to culture.

You don't have all the answers, you don't have any answers. You just want to pontificate your opinion and silence disagreement. I'm not cooperating and that's frustrating you.

This is another thing I find typical of bigots, they lack the ability to debate their ideas. It always boils down to, believe as I do or shut up. When you run across people like me, you have to marginalize us by calling us trolls or attempt to humiliate and intimidate.

None of that works on me because I know your tactics.

Talking about yourself in third-person is kinda creepy.

Ethics and morality are part of our innate nature, thanks to evolution. Religion just tries to corrupt that nature, and make us do the opposite. Like I said before, anybody who violates their innate ethics or morality, is either insane, or following a religion. Which one are you?

I know I don't have all the answers. Nobody does. But I can rule out some things, to make it a little bit easier. And one of those things is to not follow a religion, at least not one of the OT religions. Buddhism is actually kinda good, but that's not what this thread is about.

And lastly, I have debated my ideas. You've been trolling them, with no reason other than to argue. You haven't brought anything to the table, except to argue my semantics. So yes, you are a troll, and I gave you many outs. You are not special in this thread, as you believe you are. You began with the insults. You have to accept your fate when people don't back down to your insults.

You cannot bully us boss-man. You're only hurting your reputation, whatever of that is left in your circles...

Again, you go immediately to the tactic of calling me creepy because you're losing badly. There isn't anything about human ethics and morality supported by natural selection. In fact, natural selection is contrary to the notion of ethical morality.

This isn't an attack on your semantics, it's a rebuttal to your argument. Human ethics and morality come from our spiritual connection. It doesn't come from nature... else you'd have lions forming 'Save the Gazelles' organizations and such. Nature doesn't abide by human ethics and morality. This is one of the main things that distinguish us from all other species.

I know you might have convinced yourself of something else but you're not presenting a coherent argument for it. All you seem to have is an opinion and an arsenal of insults. That, and a procession of clowns who hate religion as much as you.

 

[RWS]

The term "faggots", that is a symbol of bigotry today, actually meant things that would be thrown into the fire to help it burn.

So during the Christian Inquisition, when they were burning "witches" and others, they would throw suspected homosexuals into the fire to help it burn. Hence why the term "faggots" came to define "homosexuals". That was done by people blindly following their religion. And that bigotry is still here today, but sans knowledge of where it came from. It is purely a Christian creation.

 

[Boss]

Again, you're missing the point. The U.N. doesn't exist in a universe devoid of religion, therefore, you don't know that they would exist without religion. I personally think, just the basic idea of the U.N. is rooted in human spirituality. So you don't have a point here and you'll never make this point because you reside in a universe where human spirituality exists and always will.

Again, you're confusing spirituality with religion. Religion is when people looking for power, fool people seeking explanations for their innate spirituality to follow them, to benefit their goal for power and wealth, and then institutionalize it to guarantee future growth, power, and wealth after the first ruler is dead. To the detriment of the followers that were seeking truth. They get converted into soldiers and money-making machines, and fuel the religious empire.

If you're a spiritual person, and intelligent enough to realize the truth that religious history has presented, then there is no way you can follow an institutionalized religion. But if you do, then you lack ethics and morals, since you dismiss the truth that made the Religion powerful enough to conquer your ancestors and then dictate your future religious allegiance. Since most people believe their religion because they were born into it.

If someone can believe in the religion, yet laugh off the evils it took to get them there, and just say it was stupidity and part of the past, then they have accepted a deep moral crack in their souls. Which is yearning to be cracked further open, once necessary again.

Again, I disagree that religion lacks ethics and morals and you haven't established that as a matter of fact. It may be your opinion... just like the opinions of others chiming in... that doesn't make something a fact.

You are all anti-christian bigots who dislike the influence of the religious in politics, especially social issues. Why can't you just admit that truth?

Can't speak for others, but I'm against any religious zealot having anything to do with politics and world affairs. They are the problem, not the solution... They seek to stoke religious flames to further their goals. Doesn't matter what religion.

I know. That's why I said that is what this is all about. That's what is usually behind all these anti-religious threads. What you need to remember is, we live in a religiously free representative democracy, so those people have the same rights as you to shape policy.

Exactly why the founding fathers wanted seperation of church and state. So that religious views don't overtake what is good for the people. A religious zealot nowadays, holding power to WMD's, is a very scary thing.

Nonsense. They didn't want government defining your religion. The very concept of our founding is religious... all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with inalienable rights.

Now I don't know about "zealots", to you, that's anyone who practices their religious faith. If you're not committed to your faith what good is it?

 

[Boss]

The term "faggots", that is a symbol of bigotry today, actually meant things that would be thrown into the fire to help it burn.

So during the Christian Inquisition, when they were burning "witches" and others, they would throw suspected homosexuals into the fire to help it burn. Hence why the term "faggots" came to define "homosexuals". That was done by people blindly following their religion. And that bigotry is still here today, but sans knowledge of where it came from. It is purely a Christian creation.

I don't think you understand what bigotry is. And again, you're trying to condemn an entire religion based on a single event that you're now inclined to embellish. You really need some new reading material.

 

[RWS]

It's the reason they're called "flaming faggots". And it was not a single event. You need to learn stuff.

 

[RWS]

If you accept that, and forgive Christians for doing what they did, and continue to defend the religion, then you are not moral. And have no ethics.

You're just a troll.

And the reason for your trolling has left you. Have you noticed you have no "likes" lately?

While you continue to make a fool out of yourself?

 

[RWS]

Everybody has abandoned you. And even as you try to change your story to more closely fit ours, you have been proven to be a troll and an attention-seeking fanatic, and your fellow fanatics want nothing to do with you. Sorry...

 

[RWS]

I'll be your friend though.

 

[RWS]

 

[RWS]

cmon boss, give me some love...

 

[PK1]

Boss believes that ethics, morality AND religion are all manifest from our unique spirituality.

Human ethics and morality come from our spiritual connection. It doesn't come from nature...

"unique spirituality" & "spiritual connection" are expressions that reflect ignorance, confusion, and pretension to resolve cognitive dissonance.

There is nothing wrong with ignorance if one is honest; that's the realm of agnostic scientists. Objectivity.

The word "spiritual" refers to one's imagination about consciousness & a primitive attempt to explain it, along with a desire to "live" beyond physical death mixed with fear.

The roots of empathy are naturally innate, and ethics/morality, human or otherwise, are learned during behavioral development within social-cultural contexts.

Religious faith reflects pretension and/or a need to comply to a political authority. Religion is cultural & political. It is not about knowledge, which is the domain of science.

 

[Igrok_]

Religious faith reflects pretension and/or a need to comply to a political authority. Religion is cultural & political

this is true only for totalitarian regimes, such as fascism, communism or one which is now in Ukraine. In other countries where religion is free it serves for spiritual goals. What politician do monks of Athos serve? Or monks in the Caucasus mountains?

 

[BreezeWood]

Let's turn this argument into a simple logic test based on all his posts:

Boss argues that ethics and morality are due to religion.

Boss does not believe in a religion.

Therefore Boss has no ethics or morality...

No. Boss believes that ethics, morality AND religion are all manifest from our unique spirituality. You again show a view where generalizations are applied with broad strokes. People are different, things happen in degrees. Ethics and morality are ever-changing and vary from culture to culture.

You don't have all the answers, you don't have any answers. You just want to pontificate your opinion and silence disagreement. I'm not cooperating and that's frustrating you.

This is another thing I find typical of bigots, they lack the ability to debate their ideas. It always boils down to, believe as I do or shut up. When you run across people like me, you have to marginalize us by calling us trolls or attempt to humiliate and intimidate.

None of that works on me because I know your tactics.

Talking about yourself in third-person is kinda creepy.

Ethics and morality are part of our innate nature, thanks to evolution. Religion just tries to corrupt that nature, and make us do the opposite. Like I said before, anybody who violates their innate ethics or morality, is either insane, or following a religion. Which one are you?

I know I don't have all the answers. Nobody does. But I can rule out some things, to make it a little bit easier. And one of those things is to not follow a religion, at least not one of the OT religions. Buddhism is actually kinda good, but that's not what this thread is about.

And lastly, I have debated my ideas. You've been trolling them, with no reason other than to argue. You haven't brought anything to the table, except to argue my semantics. So yes, you are a troll, and I gave you many outs. You are not special in this thread, as you believe you are. You began with the insults. You have to accept your fate when people don't back down to your insults.

You cannot bully us boss-man. You're only hurting your reputation, whatever of that is left in your circles...

Again, you go immediately to the tactic of calling me creepy because you're losing badly. There isn't anything about human ethics and morality supported by natural selection. In fact, natural selection is contrary to the notion of ethical morality.

This isn't an attack on your semantics, it's a rebuttal to your argument. Human ethics and morality come from our spiritual connection. It doesn't come from nature... else you'd have lions forming 'Save the Gazelles' organizations and such. Nature doesn't abide by human ethics and morality. This is one of the main things that distinguish us from all other species.

I know you might have convinced yourself of something else but you're not presenting a coherent argument for it. All you seem to have is an opinion and an arsenal of insults. That, and a procession of clowns who hate religion as much as you.

.

It doesn't come from nature... else you'd have lions forming 'Save the Gazelles' organizations and such. Nature doesn't abide by human ethics and morality. This is one of the main things that distinguish us from all other species.

Hunter Crushed to Death by Collapsing Elephant

Sources tell Netwerk24 that three female elephants charged the group and Botha shot at them, but he was taken by surprise by a fourth elephant that charged from the side and picked him up with her trunk. Another member of the party shot the elephant, and Botha was crushed to death when the fatally wounded animal collapsed on him.

good riddance, surly they were christian - the "hunter".


It doesn't come from nature...


it is sad you refer yourself to as a Spiritualist, let me offer you again the opportunity as before for you to be placed in a room with a Lion and I will not include the "hungry one" caveat. your so smart, I'm sure that will help, is there something else that may be from the genome of life in regards to your survival you will include for your defense ... humanity is so special they alone are loved by the Almighty even bossy the hunter.

 

[Boss]

It's the reason they're called "flaming faggots". And it was not a single event. You need to learn stuff.

I don't believe that came from religion and I don't think you've offered any proof of that. It's just another wild accusation you throw at religion because you lack a substantive argument. And, at what point did deviant homosexuality become something moral and ethical? Is this an example of secular morals and ethics? Homosexual behavior is a deviation from nature, it's unnatural. Nevertheless, Christianity teaches that you love the homosexual and hate the sin. Regardless of what some individuals may or may not pervert religion to do, that IS the Christian doctrine.

If you accept that, and forgive Christians for doing what they did, and continue to defend the religion, then you are not moral. And have no ethics.

You're just a troll.

And the reason for your trolling has left you. Have you noticed you have no "likes" lately?

While you continue to make a fool out of yourself?

First of all, Christians don't rely on my forgiveness. I accept that some Christians are good and some are bad. I accept that some follow the tenets of their religion and some are hypocrites. I only defend the religion against your unfounded accusation that it's the antithesis of morality and ethics. I do that because you haven't made your case. You've proven you have no morals or ethics and you're basically a religious bigot.

Second, I don't care about "likes" here. I never have. That was your argument. I told you from the start that this wasn't about me getting "likes" in spite of your claims otherwise. So thanks for proving that I was right and you were wrong about that. You're also wrong about me being a troll. I've told you that a couple of times as well, but you won't listen to people because you're a bigot and bigots always think they know everything.

Everybody has abandoned you. And even as you try to change your story to more closely fit ours, you have been proven to be a troll and an attention-seeking fanatic, and your fellow fanatics want nothing to do with you. Sorry...

I don't know what you think I've changed but I think my position has been consistent throughout this thread. You continue to demonstrate that you've been wrong but you want to try to spin that somehow. You've not proven I'm a troll and you've not proven much of anything other than your own bigotry and hardheaded stubbornness. Apparently, you now think that you can win arguments ad populum... by having others chime in and back your opinions. That's not how debate works. I don't care how many people come in here and take pot shots at Christianity. I'm not a Christian so it doesn't offend me.

 

[Boss]

Boss believes that ethics, morality AND religion are all manifest from our unique spirituality.

Human ethics and morality come from our spiritual connection. It doesn't come from nature...

"unique spirituality" & "spiritual connection" are expressions that reflect ignorance, confusion, and pretension to resolve cognitive dissonance.

There is nothing wrong with ignorance if one is honest; that's the realm of agnostic scientists. Objectivity.

The word "spiritual" refers to one's imagination about consciousness & a primitive attempt to explain it, along with a desire to "live" beyond physical death mixed with fear.

The roots of empathy are naturally innate, and ethics/morality, human or otherwise, are learned during behavioral development within social-cultural contexts.

Religious faith reflects pretension and/or a need to comply to a political authority. Religion is cultural & political. It is not about knowledge, which is the domain of science.

Science has nothing to do with spirituality or spiritual nature. Science is short for Physical Sciences... meaning, OF THE PHYSICAL... not spiritual. Spiritual refers to something metaphysical in nature, that which science is inadequate to evaluate or examine. You have developed a very flawed myth to explain away human spirituality, claiming it is some mechanism for us to cope with fear of death. This is nonsense because we have a fear of death due to our spiritual understanding. This is why humans have fear of death requiring a coping mechanism and other creatures don't. We have an intrinsic spiritual awareness of something greater than self.

The roots of empathy are not naturally innate. You don't see a wild lion have empathy for the gazelle they are chasing. They don't care about the gazelle's loving family or inability to defend itself. The alpha male gorilla in a pack doesn't give two shits about the other males, he has no empathy whatsoever. That's how nature works. Empathy is innate in humans because humans have spiritual awareness and believe in something greater than self. This is also the basis for cultural and social civilization. Human civilization could not exist without intrinsic human spiritual awareness.

You may fairly ask, how do we KNOW this? Because of science. We have another example of hominids who became extinct because they lacked this attribute, for whatever reason. Neanderthals were not spiritually connected. Sure, there is some evidence that later tribes attempted to mimic their homo sapien counterparts in Europe but it was too little, too late. The species simply couldn't survive many thousands of years without any spirituality.

Religions came along much later than spirituality. They are an attempt to organize spiritual thoughts and ideas. There are many faults in religion and I am not a "theist" as such, I believe they are all flawed to an extent because they are the creations of mankind who is fallible. I am a strong spiritualist who is aware of a power greater than self, it's not a matter of my beliefs, it's a matter of knowing something intrinsically that can't be denied. I simply don't allow that to be defined by arbitrary dogma established by man.

 

[Boss]

Matthew posted a very true statement of why people are rejecting religions today. It's a truth that people are now realizing more and more, especially with the advent of technology and enlightenment. We're no longer just stickin with what we were born with... We realize the meaning of these institutionalized religions, and what they did, and we choose to not follow them due to our personal ethics and morals.

Matthew, like yourself, posted an OPINION. I would argue we've had an "age of enlightenment" going on for hundreds of years and curiously, the father of enlightenment was a very spiritual Sir Isaac Newton. I would also point out that in certain parts of the world. Christianity is growing a faster pace than in it's entire history. Africa, for instance. In the most recent surveys from various objective sources, only about 5% of the human population are Nihilist. That means they believe in absolutely nothing beyond the physical. This leaves 95% who believe to some degree in something greater than self. In Sweden, the most Atheistic nation on the planet, 66% profess to be Atheists BUT... only 32% of them are willing to say they believe there is no possibility of any God of any kind. So even in the most Atheist civilization, a majority still believe in something greater than self or the possibility of such.

You so-called "smart" people have a really LONG way to go if you are trying to rid humanity of all spiritual belief. I don't think you're ever going to accomplish it. There is yet another obstacle slapping you upside your goofy faces... in every account of a major cataclysmic event in human history, what inevitable follows is a great revival of spirituality in human survivors. So this means, whenever that big asteroid hits and wipes out most of humanity, the remainder will have a broad spiritual awakening.... you're back to square one. You cannot stomp spirituality out of the hearts of man, it will defy you every single time.

 

[Boss]

it is sad you refer yourself to as a Spiritualist, let me offer you again the opportunity as before for you to be placed in a room with a Lion and I will not include the "hungry one" caveat. your so smart, I'm sure that will help, is there something else that may be from the genome of life in regards to your survival you will include for your defense ... humanity is so special they alone are loved by the Almighty even bossy the hunter.

The fact that you repeatedly use the word "Almighty" (capitalized) is a spiritual connotation that can't be dismissed. You constantly promote this concept along with excellent arguments regarding spiritual connection with the Flora and Fauna. I'm sorry you find my Spirituality sad, I find it interesting that we seem to share much the same faith in something greater than self.

I'll decline your offer with the lion and I will offer a counter analogy... if you and I were the only two male humans remaining, along with a female human, we could cooperatively work together to reform a civilization based on our mutual understanding of "The Almighty."

 

[BreezeWood]

it is sad you refer yourself to as a Spiritualist, let me offer you again the opportunity as before for you to be placed in a room with a Lion and I will not include the "hungry one" caveat. your so smart, I'm sure that will help, is there something else that may be from the genome of life in regards to your survival you will include for your defense ... humanity is so special they alone are loved by the Almighty even bossy the hunter.

The fact that you repeatedly use the word "Almighty" (capitalized) is a spiritual connotation that can't be dismissed. You constantly promote this concept along with excellent arguments regarding spiritual connection with the Flora and Fauna. I'm sorry you find my Spirituality sad, I find it interesting that we seem to share much the same faith in something greater than self.

I'll decline your offer with the lion and I will offer a counter analogy... if you and I were the only two male humans remaining, along with a female human, we could cooperatively work together to reform a civilization based on our mutual understanding of "The Almighty."

.

we could cooperatively work together to reform a civilization based on our mutual understanding of "The Almighty."

we sortof have areas of agreement pertaining to Spirituality but in significant and multi faceted areas we are diametrically opposite as I would question how reactionary rightwing ideology would correspond to a true Free Spirit. they seem to rather torch a free spirit as looking at them being enveloped with hatred.

the Almighty is not christian, christians steal from the true religion as though it belongs to them - The Triumph of Good vs Evil is all there is as provided by the ruler of the Everlasting, only one will be granted admittance when purity is accomplished. the genome of life is the evidence - all living beings being the same - no blade of grass from 600 million years ago to the present and for all eternity will ever be the same. each blade as all beings have an opportunity as freed spirits to become a part of the Everlasting after their physiology expires.

your scenario is odd boss, 2 guy's one gal and with us two, it would never work - I can't even imagine the outcome.

I do agree we have agreements in regards to Spirituality.

 

[Boss]

we sortof have areas of agreement pertaining to Spirituality but in significant and multi faceted areas we are diametrically opposite as I would question how reactionary rightwing ideology would correspond to a true Free Spirit. they seem to rather torch a free spirit as looking at them being enveloped with hatred.

the Almighty is not christian, christians steal from the true religion as though it belongs to them - The Triumph of Good vs Evil is all there is as provided by the ruler of the Everlasting, only one will be granted admittance when purity is accomplished. the genome of life is the evidence - all living beings being the same - no blade of grass from 600 million years ago to the present and for all eternity will ever be the same. each blade as all beings have an opportunity as freed spirits to become a part of the Everlasting after their physiology expires.

your scenario is odd boss, 2 guy's one gal and with us two, it would never work - I can't even imagine the outcome.

I do agree we have agreements in regards to Spirituality.

All I am trying to do here is introduce perspective. We're really not that diametrically opposite, truth be told. The main difference is your bias against Christianity and/or "reactionary right wing ideology" which you see as hateful. I don't see all Christians as being the same. I try to avoid generalizing people because we're all different. I know a lot of morally good and decent people who follow Christian teachings. Are they perfect? Do they live perfect lives and never have fault? Of course not, they'll be the first to tell you they are sinners. But they do try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. And in my objective analysis of everything Jesus taught, I find nothing inherently wrong about his philosophy. I don't need to believe he was the living son of God but they do and that's fine with me.

The OP wants to posit the argument that all religion is antithetical to ethics and morality and I think that is an absurd assumption without basis in reality. Most of what we understand as ethical morality stems from our religious philosophies, whether it's Jesus or others. It's all spiritually based. We didn't become ethical and moral creatures because of evolution and nature and this is proven by observing the rest of nature. It all begins with mankind's comprehension of something greater than self. This "inspires" humans. It is through our inspiration that we are able to form civilizations and base them on codes of ethics and morals.

Religion is not without it's flaws and faults, pitfalls and perils, this is well-recorded through history and I don't deny that. It has been exploited by the powerful and perverted by evil people who take advantage of the human propensity to be spiritual. In that respect, what you are saying is true, the human spirit can definitely be led astray. But this, in of itself, is not a reason to condemn all religion. We can certainly acknowledge the tremendous good religion has accomplished while condemning the bad things. That's an open-minded approach which is far better than bias and bigoted views which seek to generalize and hold firm to ridiculous assumptions like the OP makes.

 

[PK1]

Religious faith reflects pretension and/or a need to comply to a political authority. Religion is cultural & political

this is true only for totalitarian regimes, such as fascism, communism or one which is now in Ukraine. In other countries where religion is free it serves for spiritual goals. What politician do monks of Athos serve? Or monks in the Caucasus mountains?

It's true for ALL governments/regimes that use religion to drive their policies, including Russia.
"Spiritual goals" is made up crap used to dominate uneducated people.