Red Flag, Jan, 2017 is building

[DrainBamage]

Imagine the US gets involved in a real war again. Like in Iraq 2003, most sorties will be CAS sorties. The war could last for years and the warparties will eventually run out of the expensive smartbombs they have wasted on large troop contingents while a simple gravity bomb would have done the same damage.

Smart bombs aren't expensive, anymore a JDAM costs about $25k. Their accuracy more than makes up for price difference with simple gravity bombs since you drop one instead of six to ensure same results. They are also far more effective in CAS since can be dropped relatively close to friendlies, they have put 500lb PGMs within 100 meters of friendlies, no way you're trying that with a free fall dumb bomb.

Wouldn´t you agree that the A-10, one of the cheapest aircraft regarding cost per hour and nevertheless celebrated by the ground troops for its excellent performance, would be of major importance, while the F35 would not only lack of smartbombs but would also be needed to counter the enemy airforce?

They upgraded A-10s to A-10C, reason = so it could drop smart bombs. In today's CAS missions A-10 primary weapon is JDAMs and LGBs, same as with other planes.

In your scenario (years into another war in Iraq) there is no enemy air force, but assuming there was a significant threat from enemy aircraft the A-10 wouldn't even be flying. F-35 can do both, it can support ground operations and switch to air superiority role.

 

[Bleipriester]

Smart bombs aren't expensive, anymore a JDAM costs about $25k. Their accuracy more than makes up for price difference with simple gravity bombs since you drop one instead of six to ensure same results. They are also far more effective in CAS since can be dropped relatively close to friendlies, they have put 500lb PGMs within 100 meters of friendlies, no way you're trying that with a free fall dumb bomb.

Good point but each JDAM was a simple gravity bomb in its "first life". Cheap, though. However, the A-10´s actual main armament are missiles, right?

They upgraded A-10s to A-10C, reason = so it could drop smart bombs. In today's CAS missions A-10 primary weapon is JDAMs and LGBs, same as with other planes.

In your scenario (years into another war in Iraq) there is no enemy air force, but assuming there was a significant threat from enemy aircraft the A-10 wouldn't even be flying. F-35 can do both, it can support ground operations and switch to air superiority role.

In my scenario, the air superiority is contested. Troops will call in CAS regardless of enemy aircraft patrolling the skies. For example, CAS was a major component of warfare in WWII, particularly Germans and Russians used CAS regardless of enemy fighters everywhere.

 

[DrainBamage]

Good point but each JDAM was a simple gravity bomb in its "first life". Cheap, though. However, the A-10´s actual main armament are missiles, right?

It's hard to label something as "main" armament with the diverse loadout A-10s fly with. They do usually carry 1 or 2 maverick missiles and often a rocket pod as well, but also four smart bombs (2 LGB and 2 JDAMs) along with a sniper pod.

As in below, in the center are two LGBs and two JDAMs, Mavericks missiles are white:

These all have similar configuration

This one has a sidewinder as well, but same LGBs and JDAMs center

In my scenario, the air superiority is contested. Troops will call in CAS regardless of enemy aircraft patrolling the skies. For example, CAS was a major component of warfare in WWII, particularly Germans and Russians used CAS regardless of enemy fighters everywhere.

No A-10s in contested airspace.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

So the F-22 will be covering its ass.....

I guess we can wait for Westpuke to cover yours.

 

[DrainBamage]

In my scenario, the air superiority is contested. Troops will call in CAS regardless of enemy aircraft patrolling the skies. For example, CAS was a major component of warfare in WWII, particularly Germans and Russians used CAS regardless of enemy fighters everywhere.

Thinking on this, it's a moot point since US military doctrine is premised on quickly achieving battlefield air superiority, and currently there is no country in the world that can counter that. Who knows maybe in 15 years there will be, but by then the A-10s will be past the 2028 service extension anyway.

 

[DrainBamage]

So the F-22 will be covering its ass.....

I'm not sure what type of joint sorties they have planned with F-22/F-35 together, but if it is strike that would indeed make the most sense since F-22 is a better air superiority fighter while F-35 is far more capable against ground targets.

If they are flying them together in air vs. air exercises they'd be covering each others' asses. They both have excellent sensors that would detect red air first, it would just be a matter of coordinating for the kill.

 

[DrainBamage]

Back on topic = Controversial F-35A warplane struts its stuff in Red Flag excercise

Notable quotes:

"So far, the Lightning II has racked up 110 missions in the exercise that ends Feb. 10 over the sprawling Nevada Test and Training Range, north of the Las Vegas Valley."

So much for Westwall's dumbass won't get out of the hangar nonsense.

"Meanwhile the F-35s on the friendly “blue team” have been successful in finding ground-based air defense sites with their high-tech sensors and taking them out with inert training bombs."

So much for Westwall's dumbass they only target for other jets to hit nonsense.

"As of Thursday the F-35’s kill ratio with aggressor jets stood at 15-1"

So much for Westwall's not significantly better than planes it's replacing nonsense.

"Watkins said he’s “never seen a Red Flag like this where they’ve put up as many advanced threats against us"

Yeah they are definitely coddling the F-35 contingent like idiots claim.


Let the unfounded claims of propaganda, paid Lockheed Martin article, etc. begin...

 

[Bleipriester]

In my scenario, the air superiority is contested. Troops will call in CAS regardless of enemy aircraft patrolling the skies. For example, CAS was a major component of warfare in WWII, particularly Germans and Russians used CAS regardless of enemy fighters everywhere.

Thinking on this, it's a moot point since US military doctrine is premised on quickly achieving battlefield air superiority, and currently there is no country in the world that can counter that. Who knows maybe in 15 years there will be, but by then the A-10s will be past the 2028 service extension anyway.

The Russians certainly can but a war with Russia is not likely. More likely is a war with Iran or China in the end.
Both countries made considerable advances and would not allow an enemy to rule their skies easily.
Iran has certainly one of the most powerful air defenses. It is a separate force and maybe even second behind the Russian capabilities. There is no comparison to the air defense of Iraq, whether 1990 or 2003. I do not think the doctrine of achieving air superiority ahead of an actual invasion would work out. Not only can Iran intercept jets and missiles but they also can target the bases and carriers with missiles and underwater missiles. Given that the US lost more than 8000 aircraft in Vietnam, the vast majority due to air defense, this doctrine only applies for asymmetric warfare.

Iran Tests Powerful Underwater Missile
Islamic Republic of Iran Air Defense Force - Wikipedia

 

[DrainBamage]

The Russians certainly can but a war with Russia is not likely. More likely is a war with Iran or China in the end.
Both countries made considerable advances and would not allow an enemy to rule their skies easily.

Russia leans on IAD because they aircraft wouldn't have a chance in the air against USA and they know it.

Despite slowly developing more advanced fighters China is currently far, far behind USA. They have less than 200 Sukhois (mostly SU-27s and SU-30s) the rest of their fighters are Chengdus and Shenyangs knockoffs of western planes. Their combat experience is zilch.

I do not think the doctrine of achieving air superiority ahead of an actual invasion would work out. Not only can Iran intercept jets and missiles but they also can target the bases and carriers with missiles and underwater missiles. Given that the US lost more than 8000 aircraft in Vietnam, the vast majority due to air defense, this doctrine only applies for asymmetric warfare.

Iran's air defense network would be blind and in disarray within days, and largely ineffective within a couple weeks. Either way we're talking about air superiority, what Iranian aircraft do you imagine challenging US in the skies to impact the battlefield?

Also = Iran announcing they have a weapon doesn't mean they actually have it. They have a long history of being caught lying about their capabilities, from photoshopped images to fake scale model airplanes, they bluster a lot more than they actually do anything.

 

[Bleipriester]

Russia leans on IAD because they aircraft wouldn't have a chance in the air against USA and they know it.

Despite slowly developing more advanced fighters China is currently far, far behind USA. They have less than 200 Sukhois (mostly SU-27s and SU-30s) the rest of their fighters are Chengdus and Shenyangs knockoffs of western planes. Their combat experience is zilch.

Putin recently declared Russia the Number one military power. Their new stuff is certainly superior to all the cold war oldltimers. No doubt here. And remember the F-117 that was downed by a 20 year older missile.

Russia recently mocked US stealth aircraft and said the US should not be vain about them too much.

Iran's air defense network would be blind and in disarray within days, and largely ineffective within a couple weeks. Either way we're talking about air superiority, what Iranian aircraft do you imagine challenging US in the skies to impact the battlefield?

Also = Iran announcing they have a weapon doesn't mean they actually have it. They have a long history of being caught lying about their capabilities, from photoshopped images to fake scale model airplanes, they bluster a lot more than they actually do anything.

Iranian aircraft are already being developed and tested but they cannot compete. Iran´s real power are missiles. And when western puppet media, that praises Islamist terrorists and Nazis as democratic movements, tell us Iran photoshopped something it is themselves who photoshopped it. Iran´s mobile radar systems are no easy targets and fleets will be likely attacked with underwater missiles. A single hit on a carrier and its lamed, no plane could start and land anymore.

 

[DrainBamage]

Putin recently declared Russia the Number one military power. Their new stuff is certainly superior to all the cold war oldltimers. No doubt here. And remember the F-117 that was downed by a 20 year older missile.

Who cares what Putin says, Russia is a shell of their former self and nobody in their right mind believes they are the number one military power. Their surface fleet is a joke, they hardly have any subs running, their aircraft are almost all rehashes of previous airframes designed in the 70s except for PAK-FA which has gone absolutely nowhere.

Iranian aircraft are already being developed and tested but they cannot compete. Iran´s real power are missiles. And when western puppet media, that praises Islamist terrorists and Nazis as democratic movements, tell us Iran photoshopped something it is themselves who photoshopped it. Iran´s mobile radar systems are no easy targets and fleets will be likely attacked with underwater missiles. A single hit on a carrier and its lamed, no plane could start and land anymore.

Iran's IADS would be ineffective within weeks, Iran photoshopped to lie about their primitive military capabilities, and there is no underwater missile.

 

[Bleipriester]

Putin recently declared Russia the Number one military power. Their new stuff is certainly superior to all the cold war oldltimers. No doubt here. And remember the F-117 that was downed by a 20 year older missile.

Who cares what Putin says, Russia is a shell of their former self and nobody in their right mind believes they are the number one military power. Their surface fleet is a joke, they hardly have any subs running, their aircraft are almost all rehashes of previous airframes designed in the 70s except for PAK-FA which has gone absolutely nowhere.

Iranian aircraft are already being developed and tested but they cannot compete. Iran´s real power are missiles. And when western puppet media, that praises Islamist terrorists and Nazis as democratic movements, tell us Iran photoshopped something it is themselves who photoshopped it. Iran´s mobile radar systems are no easy targets and fleets will be likely attacked with underwater missiles. A single hit on a carrier and its lamed, no plane could start and land anymore.

Iran's IADS would be ineffective within weeks, Iran photoshopped to lie about their primitive military capabilities, and there is no underwater missile.

Look into it and you´ll see you are wrong. Russia has overcome its crisis, is a debt-free country that will not be affected by the next mad bubble exploding in our midst. On the other hand, the Russian crisis did not destroy the technological advance. Their weaponry ist state of the art and being introduced right now.

Iran´s advance is most probably real and your denial will cause that the underwater missiles will face no countermeasures and end the war before it begins.

Look at Syria and you´ll know you need to look up. There are plenty of sources. Wikipedia for example.

"S-400 holt alles runter": Ein "Höllensystem" ändert die Lage in Syrien

 

[DrainBamage]

Look into it and you´ll see you are wrong. Russia has overcome its crisis, is a debt-free country that will not be affected by the next mad bubble exploding in our midst.

Yeah right. Their GDP is down 40%, their reserves are at 30 billion (from over 90 billion before oil crisis) and projected to hit 15 billion this year, and they are 600 billion in debt. The only bright spot is their stock market, which is up only because people anticipate the worst is over. That is not a country that has overcome an economic crisis.

On the other hand, the Russian crisis did not destroy the technological advance. Their weaponry ist state of the art and being introduced right now.

Yeah let's watch them tow their aircraft carrier around some more.

Iran´s advance is most probably real and your denial will cause that the underwater missiles will face no countermeasures and end the war before it begins.

Yeee ha go Iran!

 

[Bleipriester]

Look into it and you´ll see you are wrong. Russia has overcome its crisis, is a debt-free country that will not be affected by the next mad bubble exploding in our midst.

Yeah right. Their GDP is down 40%, their reserves are at 30 billion (from over 90 billion before oil crisis) and projected to hit 15 billion this year, and they are 600 billion in debt. The only bright spot is their stock market, which is up only because people anticipate the worst is over. That is not a country that has overcome an economic crisis.

On the other hand, the Russian crisis did not destroy the technological advance. Their weaponry ist state of the art and being introduced right now.

Yeah let's watch them tow their aircraft carrier around some more.

Iran´s advance is most probably real and your denial will cause that the underwater missiles will face no countermeasures and end the war before it begins.

Yeee ha go Iran!

All this does not say anything about military capabilities.

 

[Bleipriester]

 

[DrainBamage]

All this does not say anything about military capabilities.

It sure says a lot about your credibility in claiming Russia's economy has overcome it's crisis. Clearly their economy is still in the toilet.

Congrats, you fell for it. That is a fake plane. Look at the pilot in the cockpit with his knees sticking up, he'd have more room for his legs in a bumper car. That is a plastic mockup that is way to small to be a real fighter aircraft.

 

[Bleipriester]

It sure says a lot about your credibility in claiming Russia's economy has overcome it's crisis. Clearly their economy is still in the toilet.

I actually meant the implosion of the USSR.

Congrats, you fell for it. That is a fake plane. Look at the pilot in the cockpit with his knees sticking up, he'd have more room for his legs in a bumper car. That is a plastic mockup that is way to small to be a real fighter aircraft.

Too small because? The legs are right and left of the fittings. I agree, the plane is a very early prototype but to claim it is fake is not acceptable in a serious discussion. You can´t know it.

Is this one a fake, too?

 

[DrainBamage]

I actually meant the implosion of the USSR.

Russia's economy today sucks, GDP is still way down and they are still a one-dimensional oil based economy with plenty of debt just like everyone else.

Too small because? The legs are right and left of the fittings. I agree, the plane is a very early prototype but to claim it is fake is not acceptable in a serious discussion. You can´t know it.

I can. Google it, various sources have pointed out obvious signs it could not fly and is made of plastic. They even photoshopped it flying over some mountains but people found the originals they used and they were busted as usual.

Is this one a fake, too?

That is a HESA Saeqeh, an Iranian knock of the Northrop F-5. The F-5 first flew in 1959, is that what you're counting as Iran's advanced weaponry?

 

[Bleipriester]

I actually meant the implosion of the USSR.
Russia's economy today sucks, GDP is still way down and they are still a one-dimensional oil based economy with plenty of debt just like everyone else.

Russia´s economy is as large as Germany´s and it´s per head performance is way above China´s. Russia is making big contracts with other countries like India and when someday the Europeans call for Russia to come back they say sorry our capacities are used to the full please stand by.

I can. Google it, various sources have pointed out obvious signs it could not fly and is made of plastic. They even photoshopped it flying over some mountains but people found the originals they used and they were busted as usual.

The video above shows it flying.

That is a HESA Saeqeh, an Iranian knock of the Northrop F-5. The F-5 first flew in 1959, is that what you're counting as Iran's advanced weaponry?

As I said before their profession is the development of missiles. They also like drones. However, they are able to make their own combat planes, and Uncle Sam has a big role in enabling them. Their planes and choppers have US models.

 

[DrainBamage]

Russia´s economy is as large as Germany´s

Population Russia: 143 million
Population Germany: 80 million

Russia's GDP per capita is less than Gabon, Latvia, Chile, East Timor. They are barely ahead of Malaysia.

The video above shows it flying.

It's an RC model. I'm in awe you are gullible enough to believe that this pilot is in an actual stealth fighter plane. How much range do you think it would have at that size? Where would the radar be, he'd kick it with his feet.

As I said before their profession is the development of missiles. They also like drones. However, they are able to make their own combat planes, and Uncle Sam has a big role in enabling them. Their planes and choppers have US models.

Yep like any developing country they reverse engineer a lot of stuff and in the process are always generations back in technology.