Questions for Herr Ashcroft

[Bern80]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I'll say it again, for the third time I think, sneak and peek. You are now less free from home invasion by the government from a simple anonymous phone call. Despite all the rhetoric aimed at calming the 'unfounded' fears about the searches, the government can get a search warrant for your home by simply telling a judge that its related to an ongoing terror investigation. It also reduces whats needed in a FISA court to just the claim for said warrant. After that, the ball game is over. You no longer have the right to privacy and you didn't do a damn thing.

First a clarification: Do you mean to say that someone you don't know could call your home, drop a terroristic innuendo and the government would come after you?

While the chances of a terrorist picking up the phone and dialing random number is slim to non-existant, let's assume this happens and you are investigated by the government. You seem to assume they will lock you up and throw away the key. I on the other hand have faith in our government that if such an unplausible scenario actually happened, not much more would be made of it.

Not having privacy in of itself does not make you less free.

 

[jimnyc]

Thanks, Bern! Just you using that word on this board probably has me under surveillance. Keep it up and they're going to find us at Guantanamo. (we get a free ride on the black helicopters though).

 

[Bern80]

Nevermind

let's assume further the gov't, just for kicks, decides to keep tabs on you for a while. They can't prosecute for anything else non-terrorist related unless you're trafficing drugs, but just do be safe you may want to cut down on your porn surfing.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Nor did they ever say steps couldn't be taken to reduce the cost.

Yes, but at what price? We cannot have eyes and ears prying into every nook and cranny of everyone's lives. Unless you what to turn neighbor against neighbor by having everyone spying on each other.

I don't like the way Mr. Smith looks at me as I go by every day...He must be up to something...I must report him to the Committee on Un-American Activities. And the lack of respect shown me by that Mr. Patel...Terrible, just terrible...I'll be adding him to my list also.

Absurd, but basically what you'd have us all doing...where's the freedom in that? And security...that'll just be a fart in a windstorm, a fever dream as you'll be so worried about the knock on the door in the middle of the night because someone who didn't like the way you looked at them to the authorities.

<quote>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759</quote>

 

[jimnyc]

Yes, but at what price? We cannot have eyes and ears prying into every nook and cranny of everyone's lives. Unless you what to turn neighbor against neighbor by having everyone spying on each other.

It's not everyone's lives. You guys can whine about this from now until the end of time, but the fact remains that if you aren't into shady activities - nothing has changed.

I don't like the way Mr. Smith looks at me as I go by every day...He must be up to something...I must report him to the Committee on Un-American Activities. And the lack of respect shown me by that Mr. Patel...Terrible, just terrible...I'll be adding him to my list also.

And if you accused your neighbor of terroristic activities before the Patriot Act, it would have been investigated then too. If someone accuses you of something you haven't done, then you have nothing to worry about. Shoot, my neighbor could call the FBI on my this morning and I'd be under surveillance within an hour! And it would have been no different before 9/11. They have a duty to investigate, this has nothing to do with the Patriot Act.

Absurd, but basically what you'd have us all doing...where's the freedom in that? And security...that'll just be a fart in a windstorm, a fever dream as you'll be so worried about the knock on the door in the middle of the night because someone who didn't like the way you looked at them to the authorities.

And again, I could call the local police on my neighbor at 3am and make things up. And guess what? The neighbor will have a knock on the door in the middle of the night. What the hell does this have to do with the Patriot Act? Unless you're involved in shady activity, you have nothing to hide and nothing to fear.

This was designed to go after terrorists and drug traffickers. The conspiracy theories are going to your guys heads. That's ok with me though, the Act is here to stay and I'm not losing any sleep over it, in fact - I'm sleeping better.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
It's not everyone's lives. You guys can whine about this from now until the end of time, but the fact remains that if you aren't into shady activities - nothing has changed.



And if you accused your neighbor of terroristic activities before the Patriot Act, it would have been investigated then too. If someone accuses you of something you haven't done, then you have nothing to worry about. Shoot, my neighbor could call the FBI on my this morning and I'd be under surveillance within an hour! And it would have been no different before 9/11. They have a duty to investigate, this has nothing to do with the Patriot Act.



And again, I could call the local police on my neighbor at 3am and make things up. And guess what? The neighbor will have a knock on the door in the middle of the night. What the hell does this have to do with the Patriot Act? Unless you're involved in shady activity, you have nothing to hide and nothing to fear.

This was designed to go after terrorists and drug traffickers. The conspiracy theories are going to your guys heads. That's ok with me though, the Act is here to stay and I'm not losing any sleep over it, in fact - I'm sleeping better.

Before PATRIOT your neighbor couldn't be declared an "enemy combatant", stripped of his/her US citizenship and held incommunicado, idefinitely without charge, as they can now.

Actions, such as those taken in the case of Jose Padilla are not the actions of a "freedom loving" administration. They are the actions of a despot eager to expand his power.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Yes, but your neighbor couldn't be declared an "enemy combatant", stripped of his/her US citizenship and held incommunicado, idefinitely without charge.

And they won't be, unless they are involved in something they shouldn't be.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by jimnyc
And they won't be, unless they are involved in something they shouldn't be.

Are you really this sure that these powers will never be abused? Think about if Dems ever get control again. Maybe they will use these powers to round up all the basically-law-abiding, survivalist nuts in the Northwest who utter one word against the federal government.

 

[Bern80]

Bully, just out of curiosity and since you keep bringing it up, do you actually know how many or anybody at all that is under surveillance that hasn't done anything wrong?

You would think if everybody felt the way you do that we would have some people who know they are being watched screaming bloody murder over this.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Bern80
Bully, just out of curiosity and since you keep bringing it up, do you actually know how many or anybody at all that is under surveillance that hasn't done anything wrong?

You would think if everybody felt the way you do that we would have some people who know they are being watched screaming bloody murder over this.

No. My greatest concern is for abuse of the provisions of the PATRIOT Act by an unscrupuolous and power hungry administration, namely the Bush administration. But the Demopublicans are just as sleazy as the Republicrats, both are but opposite faces of the same debased coin.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
No. My greatest concern is for abuse of the provisions of the PATRIOT Act by an unscrupuolous and power hungry administration, namely the Bush administration. But the Demopublicans are just as sleazy as the Republicrats, both are but opposite faces of the same debased coin.

A police officer uses a gun while on duty. He is expected to use that gun responsibly. It's always a concern that one could take things too far and use their sidearm in an improper manner.

I could pick apart just about every law and ordinance on the books if we could reject them based solely on our fears and conspiracy theories.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
No. My greatest concern is for abuse of the provisions of the PATRIOT Act by an unscrupuolous and power hungry administration, namely the Bush administration. But the Demopublicans are just as sleazy as the Republicrats, both are but opposite faces of the same debased coin.

Great, now we're getting somewhere. If I understand you correctly, let me know if I don't, you don't have a huge problem w/ the patriot act, your concern is abuse of it.

I am also not familiar w/ the terms you use above. What do they mean to you(Demopublicans, Republicrates)?

Also, I got news for ya Bully, there is no such think as a non-power hungery political party, no matter where on the spectrum it lies. That's what politics is all about. Power, though not in the way you may mean it. You believe this administration is power hungery because...well i don't know why. I guess i just don't see how a party would gain by this unscrupulous search for power you speak of.

I believe, on the other hand, that this administration wants to use power to make our country better. What good is authority w/o power? The two are one in the same. How do expect anything to change w/o power? Power of some sort must always be used to create change. Whether be power of persuasion or of number of seats a party holds.

But, back to the point. What sort of power is gained by using the patriot act in the way you invision? The only thing i think of is simply a feeling of perverse dominance one might feel about being able to monitor people at your whim. If you honestly believe that to be the case then you are farther left than I thought, though it is obvious since you lump two opposite politcal parties into one.

Also, you must recognize the hypocrisy of your stance. By definition liberals are supposed to believe that all people are inherently good and will do the right thing when given the choice. You obviously don't believe that. Most conservatives take the stance the liberals are supposed to take on human nature.

Have a little faith, Bully.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Bern80
I guess i just don't see how a party would gain by this unscrupulous search for power you speak of.

One word...Wealth. The ability to loot the treasury, the ability to benefit allies, and punish enemies to consolidate power.

I believe, on the other hand, that this administration wants to use power to make our country better. What good is authority w/o power? The two are one in the same. How do expect anything to change w/o power? Power of some sort must always be used to create change. Whether be power of persuasion or of number of seats a party holds.

It's not authority without power that's the issue. It's power without resposibility. Our last few presidents seem to have thought that the power of the presidency could shield them from resposibility for their trasngressions, including the current one. Thus far they've been right.


But, back to the point. What sort of power is gained by using the patriot act in the way you invision? The only thing i think of is simply a feeling of perverse dominance one might feel about being able to monitor people at your whim. If you honestly believe that to be the case then you are farther left than I thought, though it is obvious since you lump two opposite politcal parties into one.

The power to quash and silence opposition.

Also, you must recognize the hypocrisy of your stance. By definition liberals are supposed to believe that all people are inherently good and will do the right thing when given the choice. You obviously don't believe that. Most conservatives take the stance the liberals are supposed to take on human nature.

Who said I'm a liberal? Who says I'm a conservative? Merely labels we find convenient to use...It saves us the trouble of thinking. I contend that we each contain the seeds of good and evil within us. Our choices determine which seeds germinate. And those choices are not automatically the correct ones, but that's for another discussion.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
One word...Wealth. The ability to loot the treasury, the ability to benefit allies, and punish enemies to consolidate power.

That is completely counterintuitive. Political office isn't exactley the place to make a lot of money. What part of the Patriot Act allows the administration to make money? If all Bush wanted to be was rich he would've stayed in oil.

It's not authority without power that's the issue. It's power without resposibility. Our last few presidents seem to have thought that the power of the presidency could shield them from resposibility for their trasngressions, including the current one. Thus far they've been right.

I would agree. I guess we will have to agree to disagree however on the extent to which the President will shirk said responsibility and use it to his own advantage.

The power to quash and silence opposition.

Who is being 'quashed and silenced' that is innocent of wrongdoing?


Who said I'm a liberal? Who says I'm a conservative? Merely labels we find convenient to use...It saves us the trouble of thinking. I contend that we each contain the seeds of good and evil within us. Our choices determine which seeds germinate. And those choices are not automatically the correct ones, but that's for another discussion.

Why are people who are obviously liberal in their ideologies always ashamed of being called liberal? You can choose not accept the label of course, but your own words show that you are quite liberal. You don't see the difference in the two dominant political parties that couldn't disagree more on most issues and nothing I have ever read would lead me to believe you are an extreme conservative. It's simple process of elimination.

I agree w/ you assessment of human nature however. Where we differ is that i don't believe our administration is as evil as you make them out to be.

Again, have a little faith in people.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Bern80
Again, have a little faith in people. [/B]

I have plenty of faith in people, just little or none in the government.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
I have plenty of faith in people, just little or none in the government.

Sucks to be you!

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Sucks to be you!

Nah! Life is good.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Nah! Life is good.

Good! Now stop your incessant whining about Bush and Ashcroft.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
I have plenty of faith in people, just little or none in the government.

There is never been a President in office since i've been alive that I have always agreed w/ or not felt dissappointed in at times. The same is probably true of you as well. I just don't understand what it is about this particular administration that would cause you to sell off the entire lot. They are attempting to keep this country safe the best way they know how. It has zero to do with power and zero to do with money. Especially in the case of W. What do you think his plan is? To amass as much money as he can as President in the next four years(knock on wood)?

Like I said there plenty of other ways that are more effective and far less stressful to make money than being President.

And, again i have to ask is your life really so awful becasue our gov't is the way it is?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Bern80
There is never been a President in office since i've been alive that I have always agreed w/ or not felt dissappointed in at times. The same is probably true of you as well. I just don't understand what it is about this particular administration that would cause you to sell off the entire lot. They are attempting to keep this country safe the best way they know how. It has zero to do with power and zero to do with money. Especially in the case of W. What do you think his plan is? To amass as much money as he can as President in the next four years(knock on wood)?

Like I said there plenty of other ways that are more effective and far less stressful to make money than being President.

And, again i have to ask is your life really so awful becasue our gov't is the way it is?

I'm sorry, but if they're making safer in the best way they know how, I'd rather they not even make the effort.

As it stands now, you could walk into the chemical plant of your choice with a small amount of explosive andkill hundreds, if not thousands, of people. A bipartisan Congress killed a bill requiring the petro-chem industry to significantly tighten security all US chemical plants.

The Airline Traffic Safety Administration laid off 6,000 bagage screeners because their salaries weren't budgeted for. And golly, Dubbyuh sure found $87 billion for tax cuts.