Questions for Herr Ashcroft

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
Jim, I have to say that your statement is about as unamerican as can be.

Unamerican? do we really want to get into this again?

If you have a problem with them beefing up security against suspected terrorists and drug traffickers, that's your perogative. I'm all for them doing what is necessary to rid the US of these scum.

My rights are fine. I'm not worried in the slightest bit about any freedoms of mine being revoked. I won't be involved in anything that might get me scrutinized a bit further. If someone is, that's tough shit for them.

Please don't call me unamerican for having different beliefs in the future security of our nation. If you have a problem, work to have things changed. Throwing names out at those who don't oppose the new standards won't really do much to solve the issues YOU have with them.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Unamerican? do we really want to get into this again?

If need be, yes.

If you have a problem with them beefing up security against suspected terrorists and drug traffickers

the two are mutually exclusive. One has nothing to do with the other, therefore, drug traffickers should not be prosecuted with anti terrorism legislation (as the patriot act is advertised) just as terrorists should not be prosecuted with standard violations of law. Beefing up security is not going to reduce the number of drug pushers just like lowering the amount of drugs required to legitimize drug trafficing charges is going to do nothing to stop terrorism. There lies the error of your thinking with regards to the patriot act, an act advertised and originally promoted as anti terrorist legislation and also given the caveat by the attorney general as an act that would only be used against terrorists, that it will reduce crime. It will not.

I'm all for them doing what is necessary to rid the US of these scum.

Obviously, as you've mentioned several times you have no problem giving up some freedoms for security, including distorting anti terrorism legislation to include domestic crime activities that could be prosecuted using the laws and means it originally had.

My rights are fine.

No, your ILLUSION of rights are fine, when in fact they are not. Your bill of rights has been eroded yet you feel it isn't because you have not personally been affected. What you fail to realize is that the bill of rights is not an exclusionary piece of paper designed to provide some with freedom but not others and when one person, who has had their constitutional rights violated, is affected, we all are whether you have been personally affected or not.

I won't be involved in anything that might get me scrutinized a bit further.

Good for you, but thats not the issue. We're talking about affecting all citizens with a broad piece of legislation instead of using what we had and then limiting the criminals.

Please don't call me unamerican for having different beliefs in the future security of our nation.

I'm sorry if you are offended but I will use the term 'unamerican' if I feel it goes against american freedoms and traditions. It has nothing to do with security of the nation and everything to do with changing what america stands for.

If you have a problem, work to have things changed.

I keep trying but some people don't seem to want to listen.

Throwing names out at those who don't oppose the new standards won't really do much to solve the issues YOU have with them.

agreed, and if you took my remark personally, I apologize. It wasn't directed at you, but at your statement.

 

[jimnyc]

the two are mutually exclusive. One has nothing to do with the other, therefore, drug traffickers should not be prosecuted with anti terrorism legislation (as the patriot act is advertised) just as terrorists should not be prosecuted with standard violations of law. Beefing up security is not going to reduce the number of drug pushers just like lowering the amount of drugs required to legitimize drug trafficing charges is going to do nothing to stop terrorism. There lies the error of your thinking with regards to the patriot act, an act advertised and originally promoted as anti terrorist legislation and also given the caveat by the attorney general as an act that would only be used against terrorists, that it will reduce crime. It will not.

Bottom line, it's security for the nation. Cracking down on both terrorists and drug traffickers is a good thing.

Obviously, as you've mentioned several times you have no problem giving up some freedoms for security, including distorting anti terrorism legislation to include domestic crime activities that could be prosecuted using the laws and means it originally had.

And again, I've given up nothing. I'm not involved in these activities, and don't plan to be, so these will not effect law abiding citizens.

No, your ILLUSION of rights are fine, when in fact they are not. Your bill of rights has been eroded yet you feel it isn't because you have not personally been affected. What you fail to realize is that the bill of rights is not an exclusionary piece of paper designed to provide some with freedom but not others and when one person, who has had their constitutional rights violated, is affected, we all are whether you have been personally affected or not.

No illusion here at all, my rights are fine. The bill of rights weren't written to protect the rights of terrorists and drug traffickers. It hasn't been eroded at all, unless you're a scumbag terrorist or drug trafficker.

Good for you, but thats not the issue. We're talking about affecting all citizens with a broad piece of legislation instead of using what we had and then limiting the criminals.

All the citizens haven't been effected, just those involved in shady activities. I say fuck 'em.

I'm sorry if you are offended but I will use the term 'unamerican' if I feel it goes against american freedoms and traditions. It has nothing to do with security of the nation and everything to do with changing what america stands for.

And many of your thoughts have went against much of what I believe in too. I chalked it up to you just having an opposing view, not that it somehow made you less of an American.

Your opinion is that it's changing what America stands for, and I think it's protecting what America stands for.

I keep trying but some people don't seem to want to listen.

Maybe that's because a lot of people are glad that steps are being taken to ensure America's safety.

 

[Moi]

This country was created, and the constitution written, to keep government as much out of the personal life as possible. It should also be known that when the rights and freedoms of ONE person is violated, so are all of our rights and freedoms violated.


Excuse me? To which American government do you refer? The one who makes laws about abortions, birth control, affirmative action, record labelling, anti-monopolies, taxes, marriages, children, etc? Or perhaps the one which requires me to have a license to drive, own a gun or purchase bullets. Or maybe the one which states that I cannot smoke in a restaurant or a bar? Better yet, how about the one who says I have to be 18 to vote and 21 to buy alcohol and can't exceed a certain speed or fail to wear a seatbelt?

If you want to keep the goverment out of my personal life, I'd suggest that you tell them to stop forcing me to spend money on things I wish not to spend it on (in other words, supporting and perpetuating personal activites which I do not choose to support).

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Unamerican? do we really want to get into this again?

If you have a problem with them beefing up security against suspected terrorists and drug traffickers, that's your perogative. I'm all for them <b>doing what is necessary to rid the US of these scum.</b>

My rights are fine. I'm not worried in the slightest bit about any freedoms of mine being revoked. I won't be involved in anything that might get me scrutinized a bit further. If someone is, that's tough shit for them.

Please don't call me unamerican for having different beliefs in the future security of our nation. If you have a problem, work to have things changed. Throwing names out at those who don't oppose the new standards won't really do much to solve the issues YOU have with them.

<i>(emphasis mine)</i>

"...<b>doing what is necessary to rid the US of these scum.</b>..."

Ah yes, the ends justify the means. I've said this before, and I'll say it yet again.

Americans do enjoy more freedoms than a vast majority of the world. However, freedom neccessarily entails responsibility. In a free society those who abuse their freedom in acts of violence, or terrorism, against others should be held accountable for their actions. However, one does not suspend or in any way abrogate the freedoms of those who act responsibly, which is the sub-rosa agenda of the PATRIOT Act. One does not punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few, such tactics are appropriate to kindergarten, not a democracy.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
[BOne does not punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few, such tactics are appropriate to kindergarten, not a democracy. [/B]

Ah, but one does. The entire fray surrounding gun control is the result of a small minority of offenders causing people in this country to spend vast amounts of time and energy against A CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
[BHowever, one does not suspend or in any way abrogate the freedoms of those who act responsibly, which is the sub-rosa agenda of the PATRIOT Act. One does not punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few, such tactics are appropriate to kindergarten, not a democracy. [/B]

Again, how have YOU been punished? How have YOUR freedoms been effected. Only those who don't act responsibly will be effected.

 

[Bern80]

Why are some of you so hell bent on protecting criminals. I don't know maybe you think all human life should be valued equally. I don't. Personally I think the life of a sex offender is worth a lot less than mine. I don't believe in rights for the convicted. When they committed a crime there rights are forfeit in my mind.

For example, in north western MN we have a girl missing. The man who did it was caught and found to be a repeat sex offender. Do you get that. We have the man, but we can't get him to tell us where he hid the body, because we're so concerned about his frickin rights. If it were my daughter, i would torture him w/ in an inch of his life because his life until he told because his life is worthless anyway.

With regard to the act itself.....i don't, b/t Jim and I how many more ways to say it. If you aren't doing anything illegal what on earth is your problem? or do you not think we should be monitoring people who are doing illegal things?

 

[DKSuddeth]

Why are some of you so hell bent on protecting criminals.

Its not about protecting criminals, Its about protecting everybody. There was a justice system in place that worked, not all the time, but it worked.

I wish everyone could see that the patriot act is not something that differentiates between criminal and honest citizen, it encompasses everyone.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
Its not about protecting criminals, Its about protecting everybody. There was a justice system in place that worked, not all the time, but it worked.

yeah..kinda like the time two giant planes crashed into the WTC.

I wish everyone could see that the patriot act is not something that differentiates between criminal and honest citizen, it encompasses everyone.

What do you mean it encompasses all citizens. It allows the government to monitor individuals they deam suspicious, which i don't have a problem with. Those they do deam so they will watch w/ more vigilence. they aren't gonna waste their time on people like u or i.

 

[jimnyc]

Its not about protecting criminals, Its about protecting everybody. There was a justice system in place that worked, not all the time, but it worked.

Yes, it worked well on 9/11. The laws need to change to protect the country so there isn't a next time.

I wish everyone could see that the patriot act is not something that differentiates between criminal and honest citizen, it encompasses everyone.

Sorry, that's just your opinion. I don't see how this is going to harm the honest citizen. I don't see it because that's just not the case here.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Yes, it worked well on 9/11. The laws need to change to protect the country so there isn't a next time.

Nobody ever said freedom came without a price.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Nobody ever said freedom came without a price.

Nor did they ever say steps couldn't be taken to reduce the cost.

 

[DKSuddeth]

I guess the viewpoints between us are way too different.

I'm a firm believer in 'live free or die' and you believe in 'live and be less free'

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I'm a firm believer in 'live free or die' and you believe in 'live and be less free'

Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't plan on living 'less free' nor has anything been enacted that gives me less freedoms, that's still just your opinion.

I guess you're also a firm believer in 'live free, even if you are a terrorist'.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I guess the viewpoints between us are way too different.

I'm a firm believer in 'live free or die' and you believe in 'live and be less free'

Obviously you're not getting it. So, i'll ask for the third time.. i think. How are you, an honest, innocent, terrorist conspiracy free individual, less free?

and

what provisions are there in the Act that say you can't do something today that you could do before the act? For your statement above to be true i would have to believe that i am less free. Nothing i have seen since the act was passed has indicated to me that i am less free. Please tell me how I am less free.

Any answer to the above questions would be appreciated.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I guess the viewpoints between us are way too different.

I'm a firm believer in 'live free or die' and you believe in 'live and be less free'

DK, I agree with your viewpoint; however, I don't see how the Patriot Act has caused us to live less free.

 

[DKSuddeth]

I'll say it again, for the third time I think, sneak and peek. You are now less free from home invasion by the government from a simple anonymous phone call. Despite all the rhetoric aimed at calming the 'unfounded' fears about the searches, the government can get a search warrant for your home by simply telling a judge that its related to an ongoing terror investigation. It also reduces whats needed in a FISA court to just the claim for said warrant. After that, the ball game is over. You no longer have the right to privacy and you didn't do a damn thing.

Keep ignoring the fact that if it can happen to one it can happen to anyone. You'll feel different about it if it happens to you. At least some people in congress are opening their eyes while you have your head in the sand or in the clouds

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I'll say it again, for the third time I think, sneak and peek. You are now less free from home invasion by the government from a simple anonymous phone call. Despite all the rhetoric aimed at calming the 'unfounded' fears about the searches, the government can get a search warrant for your home by simply telling a judge that its related to an ongoing terror investigation. It also reduces whats needed in a FISA court to just the claim for said warrant. After that, the ball game is over. You no longer have the right to privacy and you didn't do a damn thing.

Keep ignoring the fact that if it can happen to one it can happen to anyone. You'll feel different about it if it happens to you. At least some people in congress are opening their eyes while you have your head in the sand or in the clouds

But DK what can you not DO NOW? That's all they want to know. I think they would concede that some privacy is compromised.

 

[jimnyc]

I'll say it again, for the third time I think, sneak and peek. You are now less free from home invasion by the government from a simple anonymous phone call. Despite all the rhetoric aimed at calming the 'unfounded' fears about the searches, the government can get a search warrant for your home by simply telling a judge that its related to an ongoing terror investigation. It also reduces whats needed in a FISA court to just the claim for said warrant. After that, the ball game is over. You no longer have the right to privacy and you didn't do a damn thing.

So you're telling me they may listen in on my calls or search my house because I ate too many candy bars? I'll say it again, for the third time, if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. If you believe they are going to use these powers against regular law abiding citizens - then you really do need a new tinfoil hat.

Keep ignoring the fact that if it can happen to one it can happen to anyone.

And a boulder can fall from the sky and kill you. At least the odds are about the same, unless of course you aren't a law abiding citizen.

You'll feel different about it if it happens to you. At least some people in congress are opening their eyes while you have your head in the sand or in the clouds

The air is fresh up here, why don't you pull yours out of your ass and join us!