Question for atheists, agnostics, other non-believers.

[Si modo]

So, you mention shit with knowing fuck all about it.

More projection on your part.


But do keep posting shit about me that you know fuck all about. And, although I am fascinating, I actually am not the topic - do try to focus.

I'll be happy to talk all about me when I actually am the topic, because I really am fascinating.

 

[catzmeow]

Well, you may believe what you will, but there is a mechanism in place for you or anyone to get the information you want. If you choose not to use that mechanism, the only reason you don't have that information is by your choice.

Sorry. That's not good enough. The records of charitable organizations are freely available without putting the onus on community members.

These religious congregations are the recipient of benefits from their tax exempt status by the community at the local, county, state and federal level. Their information should be published, on a mandatory basis, annually.

Community members should not have to engage in legalistic calisthenics to get access information about a benefit being provided by the community.

You should be able to search the church next door as easily as you can search the Boys & Girls Clubs or some other charity here:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

IF churches want to be seen as charitable organizations who give to the community, they should act like them. Just my take, ymmv. But, I fail to see why churches wouldn't want to be fiscally transparent.

 

[catzmeow]

But do keep posting shit about me that you know fuck all about. And, although I am fascinating, I actually am not the topic - do try to focus.

I'll be happy to talk all about me when I actually am the topic, because I really am fascinating.

So, was I the topic when you asked if I crawled out from under a rock? The response you get from me is largely going to depend on the way that you respond to me. You're a hypocritical buffoon who doesn't know what he/she is talking about. That's painfully obvious to everyone at this point.

kisses,

Catz

 

[manifold]

Well I do think the Bill of Rights is being violated by giving them a tax loophole solely because they're religion affiliated. That's an establishment of religion imo.

I would suggest that your benchmark for what constitutes 'establishment' is considerably lower than that of the vast majority of people, and may not even pass a reasonable person standard.

But whatcha gonna do?

 

[Si modo]

Well, you may believe what you will, but there is a mechanism in place for you or anyone to get the information you want. If you choose not to use that mechanism, the only reason you don't have that information is by your choice.

Sorry. That's not good enough. The records of charitable organizations are freely available without putting the onus on community members.

....

Then write your congressman because that is the law. Make sure you tell him or her that you are too lazy to use your rights to get the information.

....
These organizations are the recipient of benefits from their tax exempt status by the community at the local, county, state and federal level. Their information should be published, on a mandatory basis, annually.

Community members should not have to engage in legalistic calisthenics to get access information about a benefit being provided by the community.

You should be able to search the church next door as easily as you can search the Boys & Girls Clubs or some other charity here:

Charity Navigator - State Charity Reports: How Much Donor Money is Wasted in Your State?

You have a mechanism and you choose not to use it.

 

[Si modo]

But do keep posting shit about me that you know fuck all about. And, although I am fascinating, I actually am not the topic - do try to focus.

I'll be happy to talk all about me when I actually am the topic, because I really am fascinating.

So, was I the topic when you asked if I crawled out from under a rock? The response you get from me is largely going to depend on the way that you respond to me. You're a hypocritical buffoon who doesn't know what he/she is talking about. That's painfully obvious to everyone at this point.

kisses,

Catz

So, now I'm a buffoon because the facts I posted don't agree with your idiotic posts.

 

[catzmeow]

So, now I'm a buffoon because the facts I posted don't agree with your idiotic posts.

First, you haven't posted any facts that have contradicted my evidence. But, that's not why you're a buffoon. You're a buffoon because you entered the discussion with insults, and then had the audacity to whine when you were treated with a dose of your own medicine. You aren't nearly as smart as you think you are, dearie.

 

[catzmeow]

Then write your congressman because that is the law. Make sure you tell him or her that you are too lazy to use your rights to get the information.

You have a mechanism and you choose not to use it.

Why do you feel that churches shouldn't be subject to the same transparency as charities. Do churches have something to hide?

 

[manifold]

I'll concede that it's at least an interesting topic, and perhaps more worthy of consideration than my initial reaction. However, I don't know who is factually correct, nor do I care enough to do my own research. In principle, I agree that churches should be subject to the same rules and standards as non-religious charities and non-profits. If indeed they are not, then those who care more about it than I should work toward getting a remedy on the balot and if so, you'll get my vote. Beyond that, I have more important shit to worry about.

 

[catzmeow]

Beyond that, I have more important shit to worry about.

True dat. This was an enjoyable 20 minutes, but I probably should do some work.

 

[Si modo]

So, now I'm a buffoon because the facts I posted don't agree with your idiotic posts.

First, you haven't posted any facts that have contradicted my evidence. But, that's not why you're a buffoon. You're a buffoon because you entered the discussion with insults, and then had the audacity to whine when you were treated with a dose of your own medicine. You aren't nearly as smart as you think you are, dearie.

And yet, you continue with me as the topic.

Yes, I know. I am fascinating. I already know that and most others here know it, too.

And, if you think that your anecdotes are actual evidence of much of anything, then I just have to laugh.

But, if you want me to link to the FOIA, the IRS, and the definition of financial statements, I certainly can do that. Your propensity for laziness is already established.

 

[Si modo]

Then write your congressman because that is the law. Make sure you tell him or her that you are too lazy to use your rights to get the information.

You have a mechanism and you choose not to use it.

Why do you feel that churches shouldn't be subject to the same transparency as charities. Do churches have something to hide?

Well, look at that. A church has posted their financial statement online.

Look, another has done the same.

Wait...there is another.

And, that RC church has done the same.

So, you seem to be bitching that something isn't readily available, yet it is. Were you too lazy to look?

So, if the churches that interest you haven't already made it readily available, you have a mechanism in place to find the information you feel you need.

 

[Si modo]

Summary of thread: OMG!!!!!! I think churches do something but I'm too lazy to find out. And, they don't even do it.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Summary of thread: OMG!!!!!! I think churches do something but I'm too lazy to find out. And, they don't even do it.

No, the summary is there's people who think they should be subject to the same guidelines as other non-profit organizations, and there's some people who think they should get special exceptions for whatever reason.

 

[catzmeow]

Look, another has done the same.

These are voluntary releases of information. This is exactly why I stated that churches are held to a different standard from charities and non-profits. The financials of charities and non-profits is considered public information. The financials of churches are considered private.

This is exactly why the average member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, for example, has no idea where their tithes go, because the LDS Church does not voluntarily release their financial information. And, it is virtually impossible to track down. Our current system allows this.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The church has not released church-wide financial statements since 1959, but in 1997, Time magazine called it one of the world's wealthiest churches per capita.

The church receives significant funds from tithes (ten percent of a member's income) and fast offerings (money given to the church to assist individuals in need). According to the church, tithing and fast offering moneys collected are devoted to ecclesiastical purposes and not used in for-profit ventures. However membership income distributions do rank among the lowest of any religious group in the United States [[1]].

The church has also invested in for-profit business and real estate ventures such as Bonneville International, Deseret Book Company, and cattle ranches in Utah, Florida, and Canada. However, these ranches are split between Church Welfare Work (Bishops' Storehouse and Welfare Square) for which funds are used from tithing and are not for profit. On June 9, 2010, California Progress Report and CBS-News, reported The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be the first religious organization to be fined for political malfeasance in California. On June 10, 2010, the Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC) of California fined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for failing to “timely report making non-monetary contributions totaling $36,928 in connection with the November 4, 2008 General Election”[106] in connection with Proposition 8. California Government Code Section 84203 requires that non-monetary contributions be reported on a daily basis.[107] The commission's enforcement included levying a 15% punitive fine against the LDS Church totaling $5,539. The church reported all contributions but failed to report them on a daily basis. In a statement the church said, “In the last two weeks leading up to the election, the Church mistakenly overlooked the daily reporting requirement for non-monetary contributions and instead reported those contributions together in a later filing.”[108]

Why are you so opposed, Si Modo, to having churches financial information being transparent in the same way that the financial information of charities and non-profits is?

 

[Si modo]

Look, another has done the same.

These are voluntary releases of information. This is exactly why I stated that churches are held to a different standard from charities and non-profits. The financials of charities and non-profits is considered public information. The financials of churches are considered private.

This is exactly why the average member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, for example, has no idea where their tithes go, because the LDS Church does not voluntarily release their financial information. And, it is virtually impossible to track down. Our current system allows this.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The church has not released church-wide financial statements since 1959, but in 1997, Time magazine called it one of the world's wealthiest churches per capita.

The church receives significant funds from tithes (ten percent of a member's income) and fast offerings (money given to the church to assist individuals in need). According to the church, tithing and fast offering moneys collected are devoted to ecclesiastical purposes and not used in for-profit ventures. However membership income distributions do rank among the lowest of any religious group in the United States [[1]].

The church has also invested in for-profit business and real estate ventures such as Bonneville International, Deseret Book Company, and cattle ranches in Utah, Florida, and Canada. However, these ranches are split between Church Welfare Work (Bishops' Storehouse and Welfare Square) for which funds are used from tithing and are not for profit. On June 9, 2010, California Progress Report and CBS-News, reported The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be the first religious organization to be fined for political malfeasance in California. On June 10, 2010, the Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC) of California fined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for failing to “timely report making non-monetary contributions totaling $36,928 in connection with the November 4, 2008 General Election”[106] in connection with Proposition 8. California Government Code Section 84203 requires that non-monetary contributions be reported on a daily basis.[107] The commission's enforcement included levying a 15% punitive fine against the LDS Church totaling $5,539. The church reported all contributions but failed to report them on a daily basis. In a statement the church said, “In the last two weeks leading up to the election, the Church mistakenly overlooked the daily reporting requirement for non-monetary contributions and instead reported those contributions together in a later filing.”[108]

Why are you so opposed, Si Modo, to having churches financial information being transparent in the same way that the financial information of charities and non-profits is?

Oh, so now that your claim that they don't have to report their expenses for religious operations is shot and your claim that the public doesn't have access to that information is shot, you're bitching is about what now?

Let's make it easier for you: What exactly do you want to know about church finances?

 

[manifold]

Since I don't really have a dog in this fight, I'll offer my services as a referee.

catzmeow has identified the Church of Latter Day Saints as an example of a religious organization whose finances are not a matter of public record.

Si Modo, can you prove that she is wrong is this regard?

From where I'm sitting, one way or the other that would determine which one of you is the winner of the interwebz today.

 

[catzmeow]

Since I don't really have a dog in this fight, I'll offer my services as a referee.

catzmeow has identified the Church of Latter Day Saints as an example of a religious organization whose finances are not a matter of public record.

Si Modo, can you prove that she is wrong is this regard?

From where I'm sitting, one way or the other that would determine which one of you is the winner of the interwebz today.

I'm willing to accept this challenge. I've always wanted to win internet.

 

[Si modo]

Since I don't really have a dog in this fight, I'll offer my services as a referee.

catzmeow has identified the Church of Latter Day Saints as an example of a religious organization whose finances are not a matter of public record.

Si Modo, can you prove that she is wrong is this regard?

From where I'm sitting, one way or the other that would determine which one of you is the winner of the interwebz today.

After looking into it, it appears that the Mormon church is classified as a split-interest trust by the IRS, which is not fully tax exempt, thus exempt from the requirements of transparency of other churches.

But, that does not exclude them from disclosing their non-profit statements, according to IRS transparency requirements for non-profits.

In general, exempt organizations must make available for public inspection certain annual returns and applications for exemption, and must provide copies of such returns and applications to individuals who request them. Copies usually must be provided immediately in the case of in-person requests, and within 30 days in the case of written requests. The tax-exempt organization may charge a reasonable copying fee plus actual postage, if any. The IRS must also make this same information available to the general public.​

But, there are some stories online that the Mormons have refused providing statements on their non-profit operations when asked.

According to the IRS, all non-profits must provide this information when asked for it.

I never really trusted the Mormons too much, but I imagine if someone were to push for the financial information on their non-profit ops or use FOIA, they would get it.

Just like you, mani, I am not too worried about it. The Mormon church has plenty of operations that are not exempt and if I trust anything that the government does, I trust that the IRS will get their due tax in the end.

 

[manifold]

Alright, we'll call it a draw.

Now get your ass over to the flame thread and let's have some fun god damn it!