Question for atheists, agnostics, other non-believers.

[Si modo]

Anyone in the United States of America that believes he/she is being oppressed because charitable organizations get tax breaks is a certified, grade-A fuckchop.

Fact, not opinion.

Why thank you.


But the question entails how much of their money goes to charitable causes and how much just goes to the religious rituals.

I have no problem with all of their operations being given tax break status. Their religious operations continue to bring in revenue used for their charitable ops. And, it's not as if folks take up the career of being a pastor/priest/rabbi/etc. for the great pay (usually), so few are scamming the non-profit system for huge pays. Rather most revenues go to charitable ops.

Sure, there is a history of some huge churches scamming (leaders having gold giraffes or some shit like that) but they eventually get exposed for what they are.

 

[catzmeow]

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but every church that I'm familiar with in my area does charity work on a continual basis, that's where most of the money they take in goes.

Some do charity work. Not all. And, in my experience, most of the church budget is administrative costs (pastor's salary, building maintenance/construction, etc.). I believe that churches should be required to report the percentage of donations taken in that actually go to charity, versus the percentage that goes to administrative costs...just like any other non-profit/charity. And, that these numbers should be openly available to the community.

 

[catzmeow]

I'm wondering if you live under a rock.

I'm wondering what the best way would be to respond to such a thoughtful and evidence-based comment. God forbid that churches should have the same level of openness and accountability that any other non-profit operates under. I find it curious that my expectation that churches (because they are tax exempt, but demand the same services that we lesser mortals have to pay for, like fire response, law enforcement services, water, roads, etc.) created such an emotional response from you.

Is this because you don't have any facts or good arguments to bring to the table?

Here's a question for you: Why shouldn't churches have to report on their expenditures, by category, in the same way that other non-profits and charities do?

 

[Si modo]

I'm wondering if you live under a rock.

I'm wondering what the best way would be to respond to such a thoughtful and evidence-based comment. God forbid that churches should have the same level of openness and accountability that any other non-profit operates under.

And your 'evidence' is an anecdote ("in my experience").

Yeah, that's some solid shit right there.

Just as solid as an anecdote I may decide to present.

Edited to add your edit:

Here's a question for you: Why shouldn't churches have to report on their expenditures, by category, in the same way that other non-profits and charities do?

They do. It's called operations/operating expenses.

 

[Moonglow]

those that deliver the word of God are subject to income tax.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Anyone in the United States of America that believes he/she is being oppressed because charitable organizations get tax breaks is a certified, grade-A fuckchop.

Fact, not opinion.

Why thank you.


But the question entails how much of their money goes to charitable causes and how much just goes to the religious rituals.

I have no problem with all of their operations being given tax break status. Their religious operations continue to bring in revenue used for their charitable ops. And, it's not as if folks take up the career of being a pastor/priest/rabbi/etc. for the great pay (usually), so few are scamming the non-profit system for huge pays. Rather most revenues go to charitable ops.

Sure, there is a history of some huge churches scamming (leaders having gold giraffes or some shit like that) but they eventually get exposed for what they are.

You should've seen the catholic church I was forced to go to as a kid. It was as elaborate as they come, I don't even want to guess how much all the figures, the decorations, the pieces, the organs and everything cost.

I never understood why fancy expensive decorations were necessary to pray, seemed like to me all you'd really need is a priest, bibles and a place to sit.

 

[Newby]

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but every church that I'm familiar with in my area does charity work on a continual basis, that's where most of the money they take in goes.

Some do charity work. Not all. And, in my experience, most of the church budget is administrative costs (pastor's salary, building maintenance/construction, etc.). I believe that churches should be required to report the percentage of donations taken in that actually go to charity, versus the percentage that goes to administrative costs...just like any other non-profit/charity. And, that these numbers should be openly available to the community.

They already are open, and every church that I'm familiar with supports missions both here in the US and abroad with most of the money they take in. And what is your experience with it exactly? From what I've read of your posts, you wouldn't be familiar with any church at all, let alone what they do with their finances?

 

[dblack]

Tax 'breaks' targeted at any specific group or class of people violate our rights to equal protection. The tax code is being used as a 'stealth' legislative tool, to manipulate society in ways that would be blatantly unconstitutional if implemented as ordinary law. In my opinion, this practice is one of the worst aspects of abusive government going on right now, in large part because so few people recognize its insidious nature. On the contrary, most people see tax breaks (aka incentives, credits, loopholes, abatements, etc) as good things, allowing the government to 'reward' positive behavior. We need to get over that delusion.

 

[catzmeow]

They do. It's called operations/operating expenses.

No, dear, they don't.

For example, here are New York's reporting requirements for charities and non-profits. Religious organizations are exempt from these.

New York Reporting Requirements for Nonprofit Organizations

It's kinda funny when a guy responds to a thread with an insult. 99% of the time, it's because he doesn't have anything else to bring to the table.

I've worked for non-profits for most of my career and served on the boards of several. Non-profits and charities have to publish their administrative salaries, and the percentage of their funding that is spend on fundraising and administrative costs. This information is openly available to potential donors and members of the community.

Is the same true of churches in your community? You're speaking from ignorance because religious communities aren't required to report on these things the same way that other charities are. SO, you think you know the answer, but you have zero data. The reason for that is that churches aren't required to collect/report it.

I know that. You clearly don't.

 

[manifold]

Anyone in the United States of America that believes he/she is being oppressed because charitable organizations get tax breaks is a certified, grade-A fuckchop.

Fact, not opinion.

Why thank you.


But the question entails how much of their money goes to charitable causes and how much just goes to the religious rituals.

So what split would you find necessarily not oppressive?

 

[catzmeow]

So what split would you find necessarily not oppressive?

I don't really care how they spend their money. I'm not religious, but churches don't particularly bother me. Clearly, a lot of people need them, so they must have worth on some level. I do care, however, that many churches operate under completely different standards from other non-profits and charities. That seems wrong to me, and it is a situation that has led to a lot of financial problems in local congregations. Requiring fiscal openness from them, in the same way that fiscal openness is required from other non-profits, would probably address that issue.

I do feel, though, that they should have to contribute in some way to cover the services that they require, just like any other business would. For instance, in our area, cops and deputies are dispatched to the mega churches each sunday to direct traffic when church lets out. I think that churches should have to pay for that service.

 

[manifold]

...many churches operate under completely different standards from other non-profits and charities.

I do not believe your assertion here is true.

You're going to have to back that up with some concrete evidence if you want to convince me that this is something I need to be even remotely concerned about.

 

[Dr.Drock]

...many churches operate under completely different standards from other non-profits and charities.

I do not believe your assertion here is true.

You're going to have to back that up with some concrete evidence if you want to convince me that this is something I need to be even remotely concerned about.

Here's your evidence, he's exactly right.

home

"Because religious organizations are not accountable to the citizens who subsidize them. If churches engage in charitable work that benefits the community, do all citizens have an interest in supporting such endeavors with, say, various tax exemptions? Of course. This is the sound basis for tax exemptions for non-profit organizations, whose activities and finances are subject to IRS audit and public scrutiny. In the case of religious organizations, however, the books are closed.

Non-church groups receiving tax exemptions must annually file a detailed 990 statement itemizing where the money has gone. The IRS automatically waives the 990 requirement for churches.

So what if churches do not engage in charitable work? Or do so far less efficiently, effectively - or charitably - than the many non-profits or government programs we do not subsidize in this way? Religious organizations can and do take great advantage of their tax-free status. Many amass great wealth and vast media empires - all of it off the tax rolls. The point is that religious organizations can and do espouse doctrines of intolerance and hatred, filter funds to foreign enemies, and cause far more harm than good in their communities. They are nevertheless entirely tax-exempt, their finances never scrutinized, because they qualify as "religious organizations."

Tax-exempt status is a privilege - not a right - and churches should be held to the same standards as other non-profits - if not higher standards. "

 

[Si modo]

They do. It's called operations/operating expenses.

No, dear, they don't.

....

Yes, snookems, they do.

ALL non-profits are required to file financial reports along with the requirements you posted for NY non-profit status. It's an IRS thing. Those financial reports, by definition, include operating expenses.

.... For example, here are New York's reporting requirements for charities and non-profits. Religious organizations are exempt from these.

New York Reporting Requirements for Nonprofit Organizations...

Nice link but it does nothing to say that churches don't have to file their financial reports.

.... It's kinda funny when a guy responds to a thread with an insult. 99% of the time, it's because he doesn't have anything else to bring to the table.

....

I'm not a guy, dearie.

....

I've worked for non-profits for most of my career and served on the boards of several. Non-profits and charities have to publish their administrative salaries, and the percentage of their funding that is spend on fundraising and administrative costs. This information is openly available to potential donors and members of the community.

Is the same true of churches in your community? You're speaking from ignorance because religious communities aren't required to report on these things the same way that other charities are. SO, you think you know the answer, but you have zero data. The reason for that is that churches aren't required to collect/report it.

I know that. You clearly don't.

I don't really care about anecdotes (look up the definition if you have to). They mean nothing.

Your ignorance is in what the IRS requires - ALWAYS - for any organization to retain a non-profit status. They require YEARLY financial statements. And, financial statements, by definition, include operation expenses.

 

[catzmeow]

ALL non-profits are required to file financial reports along with the requirements you posted for NY non-profit status. It's an IRS thing. Those financial reports, by definition, include operating expenses.

Churches are specifically excluded from non-profit requirements. For example:

Automatic Exemption for ChurchesChurches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

Furthermore, wages paid to ministerial staff (unlike wages paid to a non-profit employee), are exempt to FICA tax.

FICA taxes consist of Social Security and Medicare taxes. Wages paid to employees of churches or religious organizations are subject to FICA taxes unless one of the
following exceptions applies:

■ wages are paid for services performed by a duly
ordained, commissioned, or licensed minister of a church
in the exercise of his or her ministry, or by a member
of a religious order in the exercise of duties required by
such order,

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

Nor are church financial reports openly available in the community like the reports of non-profits.

Those are key differences. And, clearly, Snookems, you didn't know about them. Save your condescension for a subject about which you are not woefully ignorant.

(also not a guy)

 

[Dr.Drock]

I don't think asking to hold churches to same tax standard as non-profit organizations is really asking all that much.

Seems like common sense to me.

 

[manifold]

It's kinda funny when a guy responds to a thread with an insult. 99% of the time, it's because he doesn't have anything else to bring to the table.

I question the accuracy of your 99% statistic. Do you have some scientific validation to back that up? From personal experience I can tell you the 99% of the time when I respond to a thread with an insult it's because the 'table' is bereft of substance to begin with so there is little point in bringing what I might have to it.

But whatcha gonna do?

 

[catzmeow]

The difference between churches and non-profits for one thing is openness. There is VOLUNTARY openness on the part of many churches. However, unlike a non-profit or charitable organization, there is no requirement for fiscal transparency for churches.

Consider the LDS church, for instance. It's probaby the wealthiest church in the U.S., owns considerable land and investment property, oversees a huge pool of capitol. But, its financial statements aren't even open to its membership, much less the community at large.

Tithing in the LDS Church

 

[Dr.Drock]

It's kinda funny when a guy responds to a thread with an insult. 99% of the time, it's because he doesn't have anything else to bring to the table.

I question the accuracy of your 99% statistic. Do you have some scientific validation to back that up? From personal experience I can tell you the 99% of the time when I respond to a thread with an insult it's because the 'table' is bereft of substance to begin with so there is little point in bringing what I might have to it.

But whatcha gonna do?

Actually the exact substance you were asking for was just provided........twice, and you ignored it.


Why did you ignore them both and only post this little rant?

 

[Si modo]

ALL non-profits are required to file financial reports along with the requirements you posted for NY non-profit status. It's an IRS thing. Those financial reports, by definition, include operating expenses.

Churches are specifically excluded from non-profit requirements. For example:

Automatic Exemption for ChurchesChurches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

Furthermore, wages paid to ministerial staff (unlike wages paid to a non-profit employee), are exempt to FICA tax.

FICA taxes consist of Social Security and Medicare taxes. Wages paid to employees of churches or religious organizations are subject to FICA taxes unless one of the
following exceptions applies:

■ wages are paid for services performed by a duly
ordained, commissioned, or licensed minister of a church
in the exercise of his or her ministry, or by a member
of a religious order in the exercise of duties required by
such order,

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

Nor are church financial reports openly available in the community like the reports of non-profits.

Those are key differences. And, clearly, Snookems, you didn't know about them. Save your condescension for a subject about which you are not woefully ignorant.

(also not a guy)

Look, dearie. I didn't start with the condescension by using a term of endearment on you.

So, snookems, you want to stop the bullshit terms of endearment now, or shall we continue with that crap?

All that you've posted confirms that churches do have to provide financial statements. I suggest you look up what financial statements contain. You will find that they contain operating expenses. That is by definition.

So, your claim that churches do NOT itemize their costs for religious rituals is just false.