Question for atheists, agnostics, other non-believers.

[catzmeow]

I question the accuracy of your 99% statistic. Do you have some scientific validation to back that up? From personal experience I can tell you the 99% of the time when I respond to a thread with an insult it's because the 'table' is bereft of substance to begin with so there is little point in bringing what I might have to it.

But whatcha gonna do?

In this case, Mani, the table isn't bare, and Si Modo is incapable of keeping pace with the discussion. Sometimes, people act from a very emotional place, particularly when they think their dearly cherished beliefs are under fire.

 

[catzmeow]

Look, dearie. I didn't start with the condescension by using a term of endearment on you.

Oh, really. So, asking me if I lived under a rock wasn't condescending? Lulz.

All that you've posted confirms that churches do have to provide financial statements. I suggest you look up what financial statements contain. You will find that they contain operating expenses. That is by definition.

So, your claim that churches do NOT itemize their costs for religious rituals is just false.

These reports aren't public information in the same way that a non-profit's expenditures are. Check it out.

 

[Si modo]

I question the accuracy of your 99% statistic. Do you have some scientific validation to back that up? From personal experience I can tell you the 99% of the time when I respond to a thread with an insult it's because the 'table' is bereft of substance to begin with so there is little point in bringing what I might have to it.

But whatcha gonna do?

In this case, Mani, the table isn't bare, and Si Modo is incapable of keeping pace with the discussion. Sometimes, people act from a very emotional place, particularly when they think their dearly cherished beliefs are under fire.

What cherished beliefs do you think I have?

 

[manifold]

It's kinda funny when a guy responds to a thread with an insult. 99% of the time, it's because he doesn't have anything else to bring to the table.

I question the accuracy of your 99% statistic. Do you have some scientific validation to back that up? From personal experience I can tell you the 99% of the time when I respond to a thread with an insult it's because the 'table' is bereft of substance to begin with so there is little point in bringing what I might have to it.

But whatcha gonna do?

Actually the exact substance you were asking for was just provided........twice, and you ignored it.


Why did you ignore them both and only post this little rant?

I ignored the first one because it read like an opinion piece and the site clearly had an axe to grind. And I posted this rant before I saw the second one. I admit, the second one has piqued my curiosity a bit and I am giving it some thought. But still, I'm having a difficult time with the idea that this constitutes oppression.

 

[catzmeow]

What cherished beliefs do you think I have?

Not sure, but your initial emotional response suggests that they exist.

 

[catzmeow]

I ignored the first one because it read like an opinion piece and the site clearly had an axe to grind. And I posted this rant before I saw the second one. I admit, the second one has piqued my curiosity a bit and I am giving it some thought. But still, I'm having a difficult time with the idea that this constitutes oppression.

In no way do I consider this oppression. That's an extreme strawman position, imo. I just feel like religious organizations should be subject to the same laws and requirements and transparency as any other charity. That seems just to me. I do not see a reason for religious congregations/organizations to be treated differently than other charities.

 

[Si modo]

Look, dearie. I didn't start with the condescension by using a term of endearment on you.

Oh, really. So, asking me if I lived under a rock wasn't condescending? Lulz.

All that you've posted confirms that churches do have to provide financial statements. I suggest you look up what financial statements contain. You will find that they contain operating expenses. That is by definition.

So, your claim that churches do NOT itemize their costs for religious rituals is just false.

These reports aren't public information in the same way that a non-profit's expenditures are. Check it out.

Well, that is not what I am refuting. Do try to follow.

Your belief that churches do not itemize their costs for religious rituals is false.

And, if you have such a burning desire to know, file a FOIA claim on the information for the church you suspect has too many operating costs in your opinion.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I question the accuracy of your 99% statistic. Do you have some scientific validation to back that up? From personal experience I can tell you the 99% of the time when I respond to a thread with an insult it's because the 'table' is bereft of substance to begin with so there is little point in bringing what I might have to it.

But whatcha gonna do?

Actually the exact substance you were asking for was just provided........twice, and you ignored it.


Why did you ignore them both and only post this little rant?

I ignored the first one because it read like an opinion piece and the site clearly had an axe to grind. And I posted this rant before I saw the second one. I admit, the second one has piqued my curiosity a bit and I am giving it some thought. But still, I'm having a difficult time with the idea that this constitutes oppression.

Oppression is your word, not mine, I wouldn't use a word that strong. I just think it's unconstitutional and illogical.

 

[Newby]

ALL non-profits are required to file financial reports along with the requirements you posted for NY non-profit status. It's an IRS thing. Those financial reports, by definition, include operating expenses.

Churches are specifically excluded from non-profit requirements. For example:

Automatic Exemption for ChurchesChurches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

Furthermore, wages paid to ministerial staff (unlike wages paid to a non-profit employee), are exempt to FICA tax.

FICA taxes consist of Social Security and Medicare taxes. Wages paid to employees of churches or religious organizations are subject to FICA taxes unless one of the
following exceptions applies:

■ wages are paid for services performed by a duly
ordained, commissioned, or licensed minister of a church
in the exercise of his or her ministry, or by a member
of a religious order in the exercise of duties required by
such order,

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

Nor are church financial reports openly available in the community like the reports of non-profits.

Those are key differences. And, clearly, Snookems, you didn't know about them. Save your condescension for a subject about which you are not woefully ignorant.

(also not a guy)

They are open to the congretation however, so those who are giving the money know exactly where it all goes and how it's used.

 

[Si modo]

What cherished beliefs do you think I have?

Not sure, but your initial emotional response suggests that they exist.

I like accuracy over bullshit. Apparently that is being emotional to you.

I think we're seeing a propensity on your part to project.

 

[catzmeow]

So, your claim that churches do NOT itemize their costs for religious rituals is just false.

I've never made that claim. I think you've mistaken me for Dr. Drock.

And, if you have such a burning desire to know, file a FOIA claim on the information for the church you suspect has too many operating costs in your opinion.

I don't believe that this should be necessary. Churches require services, the same as any other business or individual living in the community. We (the people) are granting them a special circumstance purely because they are religious. The onus for openness should be on the people receiving the entitlement.

 

[catzmeow]

I think we're seeing a propensity on your part to project.

Is it your claim that churches are treated no differently than other non-profits and charities?

 

[Si modo]

What cherished beliefs do you think I have?

Not sure, but your initial emotional response suggests that they exist.

So, you mention shit with knowing fuck all about it.

 

[manifold]

Oppression is your word, not mine, I wouldn't use a word that strong. I just think it's unconstitutional and illogical.

The poll question is yours.

And my understanding is that having one's rights violated by the government = Oppression

As a side discussion, if you disagree with this please explain what the difference is to you.

 

[catzmeow]

So, you mention shit with knowing fuck all about it.

 

[Si modo]

So, your claim that churches do NOT itemize their costs for religious rituals is just false.

I've never made that claim. I think you've mistaken me for Dr. Drock.

And, if you have such a burning desire to know, file a FOIA claim on the information for the church you suspect has too many operating costs in your opinion.

I don't believe that this should be necessary. Churches require services, the same as any other business or individual living in the community. We (the people) are granting them a special circumstance purely because they are religious. The onus for openness should be on the people receiving the entitlement.

Well, you may believe what you will, but there is a mechanism in place for you or anyone to get the information you want. If you choose not to use that mechanism, the only reason you don't have that information is by your choice.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Oppression is your word, not mine, I wouldn't use a word that strong. I just think it's unconstitutional and illogical.

The poll question is yours.

And my understanding is that having one's rights violated by the government = Oppression

As a side discussion, if you disagree with this please explain what the difference is to you.

Well I do think the Bill of Rights is being violated by giving them a tax loophole solely because they're religion affiliated. That's an establishment of religion imo.

 

[catzmeow]

And my understanding is that having one's rights violated by the government = Oppression

As a side discussion, if you disagree with this please explain what the difference is to you.

I don't believe it is a violation of rights, per say. I consider it a mild injustice, at best.

 

[Newby]

Oppression is your word, not mine, I wouldn't use a word that strong. I just think it's unconstitutional and illogical.

The poll question is yours.

And my understanding is that having one's rights violated by the government = Oppression

As a side discussion, if you disagree with this please explain what the difference is to you.

Well I do think the Bill of Rights is being violated by giving them a tax loophole solely because they're religion affiliated. That's an establishment of religion imo.

 

[manifold]

I ignored the first one because it read like an opinion piece and the site clearly had an axe to grind. And I posted this rant before I saw the second one. I admit, the second one has piqued my curiosity a bit and I am giving it some thought. But still, I'm having a difficult time with the idea that this constitutes oppression.

In no way do I consider this oppression. That's an extreme strawman position, imo. I just feel like religious organizations should be subject to the same laws and requirements and transparency as any other charity. That seems just to me. I do not see a reason for religious congregations/organizations to be treated differently than other charities.

It's not a strawman position, I'm simply interpretting the underlying substance of the poll question itself. If you don't consider it oppression, then can I assume that you voted no in the poll?