President Obama on Defense

[Indiana Oracle]

The Prophet is essentially a graduate student learning on the job. Fine. He is not the first one.

My take on his foreign policy to include defense, is that he is

1: trying counter-propaganda out. It may work here and there and/or at least change the game a bit; and

2: has no defense backup plan. His advisors probably do not see anything apart from all-out war as being remotely feasible, and that is questionable given the current politics and economic situation we find ourselves and the social spending we are talking about.

Navy1960 is correct and any serious individual who is personally knowledgeable in foreign policy and its history (vs. repeating political talking points from one corner or another), knows this.

Did you hear Cheney blame 9-11 on Richard Clark?

The same Dick Clark that sent him a memo 3 days after Bush was sworn in saying, "bin ladin determined to attack...."?

Unless he meant the Dick Clark from New Years Eve & Band Stand?

You are a sucker. Yes, he's learning on the job. Bush didn't have to learn. Cheney and Rumsfeld worked for Dick Nixon. They knew what they were doing from day one.

And anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the real world, or is only saying the shit they say because they actually do know how politics are played and they are jedi mind fucking us all. The GOP are very clever. Just keep saying Weak on Defense and eventually find a situation that proves your point.

And get hit on 9-11 and flip it so you say, "hey, we haven't been attacked again".

Well Clinton got hit in 92 and never again since. So he did a good job? Sucker.

Seek help.

 

[sealybobo]

The Prophet is essentially a graduate student learning on the job. Fine. He is not the first one.

My take on his foreign policy to include defense, is that he is

1: trying counter-propaganda out. It may work here and there and/or at least change the game a bit; and

2: has no defense backup plan. His advisors probably do not see anything apart from all-out war as being remotely feasible, and that is questionable given the current politics and economic situation we find ourselves and the social spending we are talking about.

Navy1960 is correct and any serious individual who is personally knowledgeable in foreign policy and its history (vs. repeating political talking points from one corner or another), knows this.

Did you hear Cheney blame 9-11 on Richard Clark?

The same Dick Clark that sent him a memo 3 days after Bush was sworn in saying, "bin ladin determined to attack...."?

Unless he meant the Dick Clark from New Years Eve & Band Stand?

You are a sucker. Yes, he's learning on the job. Bush didn't have to learn. Cheney and Rumsfeld worked for Dick Nixon. They knew what they were doing from day one.

And anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the real world, or is only saying the shit they say because they actually do know how politics are played and they are jedi mind fucking us all. The GOP are very clever. Just keep saying Weak on Defense and eventually find a situation that proves your point.

And get hit on 9-11 and flip it so you say, "hey, we haven't been attacked again".

Well Clinton got hit in 92 and never again since. So he did a good job? Sucker.

Seek help.

Well lets analyze what you said:

(has no defense backup plan. His advisors probably do not see anything apart from all-out war as being remotely feasible, and that is questionable given the current politics and economic situation we find ourselves and the social spending we are talking about)

Do you have anything that suggests he doesn't have a back up plan OR that you know what his plans are?

When you say, "CURRENT ECONOMIC SITUATION", do you mean like how Bush broke the military by spreading it too thin so that we couldn't have handled another war without a draft, let alone afford one?

Or, could we really afford another one pre Obama? We're spending $10 billion a month now. And we were last year.

So maybe we need to end that bullshit tax break to the rich?

And Obama is cutting a lot of wastful spending. And he's closing offshore loopholes for companies leaving the USA.

And we joke about how Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld totally didn't try diplomacy before Iraq and they wanted to go to war with Iran without talking first. Remember all that? Meet without pre existing conditions, bomb bomb iran. Dude, Bush and Cheney were sooo trying to take us to war with Iran last year but we would not allow it. Then they tried to make Georgia/Russia an issue and Russia squashed that bullshit. You guys are sooo obvious. Its why you lost the election.

The internet is your downfall. Makes PROVING IT and spreading the word a lot easier. But voters are still dumb and the media is still run by the corporations so....

 

[Indiana Oracle]

Did you hear Cheney blame 9-11 on Richard Clark?

The same Dick Clark that sent him a memo 3 days after Bush was sworn in saying, "bin ladin determined to attack...."?

Unless he meant the Dick Clark from New Years Eve & Band Stand?

You are a sucker. Yes, he's learning on the job. Bush didn't have to learn. Cheney and Rumsfeld worked for Dick Nixon. They knew what they were doing from day one.

And anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the real world, or is only saying the shit they say because they actually do know how politics are played and they are jedi mind fucking us all. The GOP are very clever. Just keep saying Weak on Defense and eventually find a situation that proves your point.

And get hit on 9-11 and flip it so you say, "hey, we haven't been attacked again".

Well Clinton got hit in 92 and never again since. So he did a good job? Sucker.

Seek help.

Well lets analyze what you said:

(has no defense backup plan. His advisors probably do not see anything apart from all-out war as being remotely feasible, and that is questionable given the current politics and economic situation we find ourselves and the social spending we are talking about)

Do you have anything that suggests he doesn't have a back up plan OR that you know what his plans are?

When you say, "CURRENT ECONOMIC SITUATION", do you mean like how Bush broke the military by spreading it too thin so that we couldn't have handled another war without a draft, let alone afford one?

Or, could we really afford another one pre Obama? We're spending $10 billion a month now. And we were last year.

So maybe we need to end that bullshit tax break to the rich?

And Obama is cutting a lot of wastful spending. And he's closing offshore loopholes for companies leaving the USA.

And we joke about how Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld totally didn't try diplomacy before Iraq and they wanted to go to war with Iran without talking first. Remember all that? Meet without pre existing conditions, bomb bomb iran. Dude, Bush and Cheney were sooo trying to take us to war with Iran last year but we would not allow it. Then they tried to make Georgia/Russia an issue and Russia squashed that bullshit. You guys are sooo obvious. Its why you lost the election.

The internet is your downfall. Makes PROVING IT and spreading the word a lot easier. But voters are still dumb and the media is still run by the corporations so....

The Reps (I am not one) lost. Get over it and start thinking forward.

Forums are, foundationally, opinion spaces. Sometimes backed up, sometimes not. Having connections within the military I know what I am talking about on practical and accepted plans being in place to deal militarily short of full-scale war with Iran, to name one example. Would imagine most ex-military here would see things the same based purely on the known situation today.

The rest of what I posted on knowing the history of foreign policy is fully true. If you doubt it, study.

 

[Navy1960]

The New York Times is reporting that, a day after North Korea announced that it had successfully conducted its second nuclear test, it test fired three short-range missiles, in actions that further infuriated the rest of the international community.

Moreover, a South Korean newspaper reports that American spy satellites detected steam and signs of nuclear activity from a North Korean plant that reprocesses nuclear fuel to make weapons-grade plutonium.
North Korea fires three more test missiles - Collegenews.

Gates' budget recommendations signal the approaching end of production for Boeing's C-17 military cargo plane, built in Long Beach, Calif., and the F-22 advanced stealth jet fighter. Boeing builds the F-22's wings and aft fuselage in Seattle, employing more than 1,000 people.

The Army's $160 billion Future Combat Systems (FCS) program of networked vehicles, drones and communications, on which Boeing is the lead contractor, is being signficiantly restructured. The $87 billion vehicle component of FCS is canceled
Business & Technology | Boeing would be hit hard by defense budget cuts | Seattle Times Newspaper

U.S. military weapons procurement, long criticized for bloat and inefficiency, changed Friday when President Obama signed into law purchase reforms.

“I’m proud to join Democratic and Republican members of Congress for the signing of a bill that will eliminate some of the waste and inefficiency in our defense projects,” Obama said during the signing ceremony. He said they were “reforms that will better protect our nation, better protect our troops, and save taxpayers tens of billions of dollars.” Barack Obama

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Monday proposed killing weapons programs that are over budget, behind schedule and out-of-date, urging Congress to rise above parochial interests to support his plan.

But it took just minutes before the first group of U.S. senators dashed off a letter to President Barack Obama opposing the proposed $1.4 billion cut in missile defense spending, showing the challenges Gates faces in pushing through reforms.
Congress slams defense budget cuts | Reuters

Even as Johnstown’s business community celebrates Friday’s announcements of $110 million in federal contracts and dozens of new jobs, developments in Washington threaten a program envisioned to create 150 jobs.

The Missile Defense Agency on May 11 issued a stop-work order on Northrop Grumman’s $4 billion contract for a missile-defense weapon.

The entire Kinetic Energy Interceptor program was cut from President Barack Obama’s 2009-2010 defense budget.
The Tribune Democrat, Johnstown, PA - Weapons contract halted: Northrop Grumman dealt setback
ABL is equipped with a powerful megawatt-class chemical laser designed to defend against hostile ballistic attack. The program began weapon system flight tests in April and was approaching a key missile shootdown exercise when future funding was drastically cut under the Fiscal 2010 budget led by Defense Secretary Robert Gates. These will see the demonstrator relegated to a research-and-development role, while funding for a second ABL, “Tail Two,”


ABL Boosters Look to Kills for Survival | AVIATION WEEK

VH-71 Cancelled,

Shutting down the F-22 “will impact America for years to come,” according to Michael Wynne, former Air Force Secretary and champion of the F-22.

“We have shut down a fifth-generation fighter before we have another fifth-generation fighter available to our president,” Wynne said.

“We are really betting on [the F35] to mature on an aggressive timeline — one we haven't seen before and so it’s a risky course,” he said. “I would have to say that the decisions are very difficult, but here is a case I think we are maybe accepting a little more risk than we need to.”

Gates’ Defense cuts include F-22, CSAR-X - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times

Want me to keep going sealy? or do you want to keep resorting to name calling? The fact is I have always on this board been an advocate of purchasing reform at DoD but that does not include cutting defense projects that are well into the production stage or are vital to this nations defense in light of the fact we are engaged in two seperate conflicts with another country showing hostile intentions. I have always been an advocate for reform and streamling DoD purchasing and keeping the maximum number of Amercian JOBS here in this nation building these systems. Or have you forgotten that these mature programs such as the F-22 and Missile defense employ a great many people. I suppose it's okay for some people to lose their jobs if they are working in and industry that you just dont happen to like? So again tell me who doesn't have their facts straight here? I would suggest sealy that you take some time to read a little prior to resorting to name calling. Let me give you a little insight here, when the DoD purchases let's say a Presidential Helicopter such as the one recently cancelled, there are literally billions spent in R&D prior to first flight. Once that has been accomplished and you have tooled for production for let's say the first 4 airframes your program is mature enough ot have used several more billion. So when a stop order comes from DoD, the costs involved in disposing of all the tooling, the airframes and shutdowns is several more billion and the US taxpayer ends up with exactly nothing! Do you understand now? Want an even better example, you have no doubt heard of the B-1 Bomber which is est. over 1 billion dollars an aircraft, now had congress not cut the program to a very very small number of aircraft the cost per airframe would have been much much smaller, not only that the effect on capabilites force projection impact would have been much smaller as well, not to mention the countless tens of thousands of people who were unemployed and became a burden to states as a result. So given all this I have long advocated that DoD change the good old boy network up there and control costs to the advantage of us all. I do not believe you do that by taking a hammer and smashing programs to get money to redirect to social spending in a time of war.

 

[Luissa]

I still don't see how North Korea is that big of a threat? I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

 

[elvis]

I still don't see how North Korea is that big of a threat? I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

I think they're more of a threat to Japan than anyone else.

 

[Luissa]

I still don't see how North Korea is that big of a threat? I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

I think they're more of a threat to Japan than anyone else.

I don't see them going after Japan either, we still have a presense there and I really don't think they want to go to war with us. I also don't see how they have the money to even develope that good of weapons, they may have a large army but really what else do they have. I think it is more of a situation where they are just trying to show they have something so they will not get attacked. Like they say if you are weak you must try to seem stronger and if you are stronger you must try to seem weaker. I think they are just trying to put on a show just like Irag was trying to do. But like I said I could be wrong, this is not my subject but it is the impression I get.

 

[elvis]

I still don't see how North Korea is that big of a threat? I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

I think they're more of a threat to Japan than anyone else.

I don't see them going after Japan either, we still have a presense there and I really don't think they want to go to war with us. I also don't see how they have the money to even develope that good of weapons, they may have a large army but really what else do they have. I think it is more of a situation where they are just trying to show they have something so they will not get attacked. Like they say if you are weak you must try to seem stronger and if you are stronger you must try to seem weaker. I think they are just trying to put on a show just like Irag was trying to do. But like I said I could be wrong, this is not my subject but it is the impression I get.

I think they are sabor rattling. But when they conduct missile tests that go over Japan, the japanese get really nervous.

 

[sealybobo]

Seek help.

Well lets analyze what you said:

(has no defense backup plan. His advisors probably do not see anything apart from all-out war as being remotely feasible, and that is questionable given the current politics and economic situation we find ourselves and the social spending we are talking about)

Do you have anything that suggests he doesn't have a back up plan OR that you know what his plans are?

When you say, "CURRENT ECONOMIC SITUATION", do you mean like how Bush broke the military by spreading it too thin so that we couldn't have handled another war without a draft, let alone afford one?

Or, could we really afford another one pre Obama? We're spending $10 billion a month now. And we were last year.

So maybe we need to end that bullshit tax break to the rich?

And Obama is cutting a lot of wastful spending. And he's closing offshore loopholes for companies leaving the USA.

And we joke about how Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld totally didn't try diplomacy before Iraq and they wanted to go to war with Iran without talking first. Remember all that? Meet without pre existing conditions, bomb bomb iran. Dude, Bush and Cheney were sooo trying to take us to war with Iran last year but we would not allow it. Then they tried to make Georgia/Russia an issue and Russia squashed that bullshit. You guys are sooo obvious. Its why you lost the election.

The internet is your downfall. Makes PROVING IT and spreading the word a lot easier. But voters are still dumb and the media is still run by the corporations so....

The Reps (I am not one) lost. Get over it and start thinking forward.

Forums are, foundationally, opinion spaces. Sometimes backed up, sometimes not. Having connections within the military I know what I am talking about on practical and accepted plans being in place to deal militarily short of full-scale war with Iran, to name one example. Would imagine most ex-military here would see things the same based purely on the known situation today.

The rest of what I posted on knowing the history of foreign policy is fully true. If you doubt it, study.

That's the thing. I doubt you because I have studied it.

And I can't get over it because you won't get over it. Everything you say for the next 2 years (midterm) and 4 (presidential) is designed to set up the Dems so they fail and the GOP wins.

You don't want people to know that. It was the Newt Congress plan against Gore. Keep bashing Gore/Clinton so people get sick of it and then make the mistake of voting in Bush. They forgot how bad daddy bush was and voted in GW, so I will not forget so we make that mistake again and vote in Jebb or Mitt. They will be directed by the same men that pulled GW's strings.

PS. You're experience is probably not as good as McCain's, and his experience did not make him qualified to lead this country.

Your judgement is off. Your agenda is bad. We want to make friends, not enemies. No this isn't liberal pussy talk. This is fact. We can be on good terms with Iran and have them help us with Al Queda or we can be enemies and they can sponsor terrorism.

I don't know who started it. All I know is the GOP has a very dangerous leadership approach to running the free world. They seem to profit from making enemies.

And the same robber barons who own America want to own Venesuela. And Chavez told them to fuck off. And so I applaud that. I wish we would tell them to fuck off too. They are against ME/US more than Chavez. But you think the bankers are on your side. No. They want to enslave Venesuela just like they have enslaved you. And you don't even know it.

Hense the art of war. Read it. Without even firing one shot.

 

[Navy1960]

the intervening twelve months, Pyongyang substantiated our concerns. In July it flight-tested
missiles and in October it tested a nuclear device. We remain concerned it could proliferate
these weapons abroad. Indeed, it already has sold ballistic missiles to several Middle Eastern
countries. By pressing forward with its nuclear weapon and missile programs, North Korea
threatens to destabilize a region that has known several great power conflicts over the last one
hundred years and now comprises some of the world’s largest economies.

http://intelligence.senate.gov/070111/negroponte.pdf

While North Korea’s military almost certainly could not
defeat South Korea, it could inflict hundreds of thousands of
casualties and severe damage on the South. Missile delivery
systems, including several hundred deployed Scud and No
Dong missiles, which were flight-tested in July 2006, add to the
threat to South Korea and extend it to Japan, including to US
bases in both those countries. The North’s October 2006
nuclear test supports our previous assessment that it had
produced nuclear weapons. The test produced a nuclear yield of
less than one kiloton, well below the yield of most states’ first
nuclear tests. Prior to the test, North Korea produced
http://www.dni.gov/testimonies/20080227_testimony.pdf

They may not seem like it but N. Korea is a big threat to the world at the moment Luiassa and as they have not hesitated to sell technology to anyone. It's not unreasonable to assume that the nuclear technology they obviously have is availble for sale as well.

 

[sealybobo]

The New York Times is reporting that, a day after North Korea announced that it had successfully conducted its second nuclear test, it test fired three short-range missiles, in actions that further infuriated the rest of the international community.

Moreover, a South Korean newspaper reports that American spy satellites detected steam and signs of nuclear activity from a North Korean plant that reprocesses nuclear fuel to make weapons-grade plutonium.
North Korea fires three more test missiles - Collegenews.

Gates' budget recommendations signal the approaching end of production for Boeing's C-17 military cargo plane, built in Long Beach, Calif., and the F-22 advanced stealth jet fighter. Boeing builds the F-22's wings and aft fuselage in Seattle, employing more than 1,000 people.

The Army's $160 billion Future Combat Systems (FCS) program of networked vehicles, drones and communications, on which Boeing is the lead contractor, is being signficiantly restructured. The $87 billion vehicle component of FCS is canceled
Business & Technology | Boeing would be hit hard by defense budget cuts | Seattle Times Newspaper

U.S. military weapons procurement, long criticized for bloat and inefficiency, changed Friday when President Obama signed into law purchase reforms.

“I’m proud to join Democratic and Republican members of Congress for the signing of a bill that will eliminate some of the waste and inefficiency in our defense projects,” Obama said during the signing ceremony. He said they were “reforms that will better protect our nation, better protect our troops, and save taxpayers tens of billions of dollars.” Barack Obama

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Monday proposed killing weapons programs that are over budget, behind schedule and out-of-date, urging Congress to rise above parochial interests to support his plan.

But it took just minutes before the first group of U.S. senators dashed off a letter to President Barack Obama opposing the proposed $1.4 billion cut in missile defense spending, showing the challenges Gates faces in pushing through reforms.
Congress slams defense budget cuts | Reuters

Even as Johnstown’s business community celebrates Friday’s announcements of $110 million in federal contracts and dozens of new jobs, developments in Washington threaten a program envisioned to create 150 jobs.

The Missile Defense Agency on May 11 issued a stop-work order on Northrop Grumman’s $4 billion contract for a missile-defense weapon.

The entire Kinetic Energy Interceptor program was cut from President Barack Obama’s 2009-2010 defense budget.
The Tribune Democrat, Johnstown, PA - Weapons contract halted: Northrop Grumman dealt setback
ABL is equipped with a powerful megawatt-class chemical laser designed to defend against hostile ballistic attack. The program began weapon system flight tests in April and was approaching a key missile shootdown exercise when future funding was drastically cut under the Fiscal 2010 budget led by Defense Secretary Robert Gates. These will see the demonstrator relegated to a research-and-development role, while funding for a second ABL, “Tail Two,”


ABL Boosters Look to Kills for Survival | AVIATION WEEK

VH-71 Cancelled,

Shutting down the F-22 “will impact America for years to come,” according to Michael Wynne, former Air Force Secretary and champion of the F-22.

“We have shut down a fifth-generation fighter before we have another fifth-generation fighter available to our president,” Wynne said.

“We are really betting on [the F35] to mature on an aggressive timeline — one we haven't seen before and so it’s a risky course,” he said. “I would have to say that the decisions are very difficult, but here is a case I think we are maybe accepting a little more risk than we need to.”

Gates’ Defense cuts include F-22, CSAR-X - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times

Want me to keep going sealy? or do you want to keep resorting to name calling? The fact is I have always on this board been an advocate of purchasing reform at DoD but that does not include cutting defense projects that are well into the production stage or are vital to this nations defense in light of the fact we are engaged in two seperate conflicts with another country showing hostile intentions. I have always been an advocate for reform and streamling DoD purchasing and keeping the maximum number of Amercian JOBS here in this nation building these systems. Or have you forgotten that these mature programs such as the F-22 and Missile defense employ a great many people. I suppose it's okay for some people to lose their jobs if they are working in and industry that you just dont happen to like? So again tell me who doesn't have their facts straight here? I would suggest sealy that you take some time to read a little prior to resorting to name calling. Let me give you a little insight here, when the DoD purchases let's say a Presidential Helicopter such as the one recently cancelled, there are literally billions spent in R&D prior to first flight. Once that has been accomplished and you have tooled for production for let's say the first 4 airframes your program is mature enough ot have used several more billion. So when a stop order comes from DoD, the costs involved in disposing of all the tooling, the airframes and shutdowns is several more billion and the US taxpayer ends up with exactly nothing! Do you understand now? Want an even better example, you have no doubt heard of the B-1 Bomber which is est. over 1 billion dollars an aircraft, now had congress not cut the program to a very very small number of aircraft the cost per airframe would have been much much smaller, not only that the effect on capabilites force projection impact would have been much smaller as well, not to mention the countless tens of thousands of people who were unemployed and became a burden to states as a result. So given all this I have long advocated that DoD change the good old boy network up there and control costs to the advantage of us all. I do not believe you do that by taking a hammer and smashing programs to get money to redirect to social spending in a time of war.

What did you prove? If we don't need more of those planes, then end the program. And now you want to cry about jobs? How about jobs in companies that make shit that the free market purchases, like cars? But you want cheap cars, right? But you don't mind if these defense companies gouge the tax payers? And remember they tried sending Boing jobs to Airbus (europe) last year? You didn't like that. But it was ok sending car jobs overeseas, huh?

These are government/tax payer funded programs. We can't worry about the jobs lost. Those people will have to go get jobs in the free market. We didn't keep making tanks after ww2 because it employed a lot of people.

Remember, tax payers are paying those salaries.

 

[sealybobo]

the intervening twelve months, Pyongyang substantiated our concerns. In July it flight-tested
missiles and in October it tested a nuclear device. We remain concerned it could proliferate
these weapons abroad. Indeed, it already has sold ballistic missiles to several Middle Eastern
countries. By pressing forward with its nuclear weapon and missile programs, North Korea
threatens to destabilize a region that has known several great power conflicts over the last one
hundred years and now comprises some of the world’s largest economies.

http://intelligence.senate.gov/070111/negroponte.pdf

While North Korea’s military almost certainly could not
defeat South Korea, it could inflict hundreds of thousands of
casualties and severe damage on the South. Missile delivery
systems, including several hundred deployed Scud and No
Dong missiles, which were flight-tested in July 2006, add to the
threat to South Korea and extend it to Japan, including to US
bases in both those countries. The North’s October 2006
nuclear test supports our previous assessment that it had
produced nuclear weapons. The test produced a nuclear yield of
less than one kiloton, well below the yield of most states’ first
nuclear tests. Prior to the test, North Korea produced
http://www.dni.gov/testimonies/20080227_testimony.pdf

They may not seem like it but N. Korea is a big threat to the world at the moment Luiassa and as they have not hesitated to sell technology to anyone. It's not unreasonable to assume that the nuclear technology they obviously have is availble for sale as well.

What is China going to do about it? It is their part of the world and their turn. They have trillions of soldiers.

 

[Navy1960]

Who do you think sealy all those Boeing workers are represented by? Oh yes that would be the UAW , I forgot. Okay let's talk about all those compaines and jobs going oversea's because you want to read air between the lines I write and fill in blanks that are not there. First, I think its a shame that and a disgrace that the American Auto Industry has gotten to the point it has. Car's made in this country are every bit as good as any car made anywhere. The problem is with the costs invloved in making the car. If for example you have thousands of dollars in pension and healthcare costs wrapped up in the cost of every car you make it makes it hard to compete with the guy who is selling a care much cheaper than you which is equal in quality. Further, if you have a labor union that is unbending and does not allow you to compete then in order to survice you have to go elsewhere. I'm not saying these are the only factors , but they are some of the reasons why Amercian jobs are going overseas including American defense jobs. Which by the way create a number of jobs for the Free Market, as well. Let me give you a huge example of that which has being playing itself out for years many civilian and military aircraft such as the KC135, C9,KC10 etc etc were made in the same plants that civilian aircraft are made. There are literally thousands of suppliers for these the world over that keep people employed and yes even UAW members. Of course if a program is being mismanged or is just plain not needed it should be cancelled or brought to an end correctly, but done so in a manner that is much more cost efficient than it is today.

I suppose to you I proved nothing however because you are most likely under the impression that an F-18 can fly for 50 years and still be effective or perhaps an F-16 which was frist flown in the 70's or the F-15 same era. Here we are 39 years later fighting 2 wars with aircraft that are long past retirement age. The Military expecially the Navy, Marine, and Air Force Air Arms are in desperate need of modernization. You cited the Tanker program, did you know the KC-135 first flew in the 50's and the US Air Force primary bomber is a design dating back to the 40's ? So yes we need these programs , but they need to be managed better and brought in on time and on budget and the contractors held to account when they are not.

 

[Luissa]

the intervening twelve months, Pyongyang substantiated our concerns. In July it flight-tested
missiles and in October it tested a nuclear device. We remain concerned it could proliferate
these weapons abroad. Indeed, it already has sold ballistic missiles to several Middle Eastern
countries. By pressing forward with its nuclear weapon and missile programs, North Korea
threatens to destabilize a region that has known several great power conflicts over the last one
hundred years and now comprises some of the world’s largest economies.

http://intelligence.senate.gov/070111/negroponte.pdf

While North Korea’s military almost certainly could not
defeat South Korea, it could inflict hundreds of thousands of
casualties and severe damage on the South. Missile delivery
systems, including several hundred deployed Scud and No
Dong missiles, which were flight-tested in July 2006, add to the
threat to South Korea and extend it to Japan, including to US
bases in both those countries. The North’s October 2006
nuclear test supports our previous assessment that it had
produced nuclear weapons. The test produced a nuclear yield of
less than one kiloton, well below the yield of most states’ first
nuclear tests. Prior to the test, North Korea produced
http://www.dni.gov/testimonies/20080227_testimony.pdf

They may not seem like it but N. Korea is a big threat to the world at the moment Luiassa and as they have not hesitated to sell technology to anyone. It's not unreasonable to assume that the nuclear technology they obviously have is availble for sale as well.

I just don't see it lasting very long! I also don't see China letting them continue to do this, they don't want them acting up and North Korea knows it wouldn't take much for China to come in and take over things. North Korea is nothing without Chinese support and they don't really have it right now.

 

[Chris]

One nuclear submarine could destroy North Korea.

 

[sealybobo]

Who do you think sealy all those Boeing workers are represented by? Oh yes that would be the UAW , I forgot. Okay let's talk about all those compaines and jobs going oversea's because you want to read air between the lines I write and fill in blanks that are not there. First, I think its a shame that and a disgrace that the American Auto Industry has gotten to the point it has. Car's made in this country are every bit as good as any car made anywhere. The problem is with the costs invloved in making the car. If for example you have thousands of dollars in pension and healthcare costs wrapped up in the cost of every car you make it makes it hard to compete with the guy who is selling a care much cheaper than you which is equal in quality. Further, if you have a labor union that is unbending and does not allow you to compete then in order to survice you have to go elsewhere. I'm not saying these are the only factors , but they are some of the reasons why Amercian jobs are going overseas including American defense jobs. Which by the way create a number of jobs for the Free Market, as well. Let me give you a huge example of that which has being playing itself out for years many civilian and military aircraft such as the KC135, C9,KC10 etc etc were made in the same plants that civilian aircraft are made. There are literally thousands of suppliers for these the world over that keep people employed and yes even UAW members. Of course if a program is being mismanged or is just plain not needed it should be cancelled or brought to an end correctly, but done so in a manner that is much more cost efficient than it is today.

I suppose to you I proved nothing however because you are most likely under the impression that an F-18 can fly for 50 years and still be effective or perhaps an F-16 which was frist flown in the 70's or the F-15 same era. Here we are 39 years later fighting 2 wars with aircraft that are long past retirement age. The Military expecially the Navy, Marine, and Air Force Air Arms are in desperate need of modernization. You cited the Tanker program, did you know the KC-135 first flew in the 50's and the US Air Force primary bomber is a design dating back to the 40's ? So yes we need these programs , but they need to be managed better and brought in on time and on budget and the contractors held to account when they are not.

Yes, American workers cost more than workers in other countries. What's your point? What do/did you do for a living?

And I'm not going to debate f 18's and kc 135's with you. I suspect if you look close, they are money wasters and they need to go. I'm sure you can make an argument why they are necessary though.

 

[Luissa]

Who do you think sealy all those Boeing workers are represented by? Oh yes that would be the UAW , I forgot. Okay let's talk about all those compaines and jobs going oversea's because you want to read air between the lines I write and fill in blanks that are not there. First, I think its a shame that and a disgrace that the American Auto Industry has gotten to the point it has. Car's made in this country are every bit as good as any car made anywhere. The problem is with the costs invloved in making the car. If for example you have thousands of dollars in pension and healthcare costs wrapped up in the cost of every car you make it makes it hard to compete with the guy who is selling a care much cheaper than you which is equal in quality. Further, if you have a labor union that is unbending and does not allow you to compete then in order to survice you have to go elsewhere. I'm not saying these are the only factors , but they are some of the reasons why Amercian jobs are going overseas including American defense jobs. Which by the way create a number of jobs for the Free Market, as well. Let me give you a huge example of that which has being playing itself out for years many civilian and military aircraft such as the KC135, C9,KC10 etc etc were made in the same plants that civilian aircraft are made. There are literally thousands of suppliers for these the world over that keep people employed and yes even UAW members. Of course if a program is being mismanged or is just plain not needed it should be cancelled or brought to an end correctly, but done so in a manner that is much more cost efficient than it is today.

I suppose to you I proved nothing however because you are most likely under the impression that an F-18 can fly for 50 years and still be effective or perhaps an F-16 which was frist flown in the 70's or the F-15 same era. Here we are 39 years later fighting 2 wars with aircraft that are long past retirement age. The Military expecially the Navy, Marine, and Air Force Air Arms are in desperate need of modernization. You cited the Tanker program, did you know the KC-135 first flew in the 50's and the US Air Force primary bomber is a design dating back to the 40's ? So yes we need these programs , but they need to be managed better and brought in on time and on budget and the contractors held to account when they are not.

Yes, American workers cost more than workers in other countries. What's your point? What do/did you do for a living?

And I'm not going to debate f 18's and kc 135's with you. I suspect if you look close, they are money wasters and they need to go. I'm sure you can make an argument why they are necessary though.

They are necessary where I live since the base which is large influence in our local economy and all they really fly out of here is KC135's. Yes they could probably make a more efficent aircraft but you need a refueling unit such as the one here.

 

[sealybobo]

Who do you think sealy all those Boeing workers are represented by? Oh yes that would be the UAW , I forgot. Okay let's talk about all those compaines and jobs going oversea's because you want to read air between the lines I write and fill in blanks that are not there. First, I think its a shame that and a disgrace that the American Auto Industry has gotten to the point it has. Car's made in this country are every bit as good as any car made anywhere. The problem is with the costs invloved in making the car. If for example you have thousands of dollars in pension and healthcare costs wrapped up in the cost of every car you make it makes it hard to compete with the guy who is selling a care much cheaper than you which is equal in quality. Further, if you have a labor union that is unbending and does not allow you to compete then in order to survice you have to go elsewhere. I'm not saying these are the only factors , but they are some of the reasons why Amercian jobs are going overseas including American defense jobs. Which by the way create a number of jobs for the Free Market, as well. Let me give you a huge example of that which has being playing itself out for years many civilian and military aircraft such as the KC135, C9,KC10 etc etc were made in the same plants that civilian aircraft are made. There are literally thousands of suppliers for these the world over that keep people employed and yes even UAW members. Of course if a program is being mismanged or is just plain not needed it should be cancelled or brought to an end correctly, but done so in a manner that is much more cost efficient than it is today.

I suppose to you I proved nothing however because you are most likely under the impression that an F-18 can fly for 50 years and still be effective or perhaps an F-16 which was frist flown in the 70's or the F-15 same era. Here we are 39 years later fighting 2 wars with aircraft that are long past retirement age. The Military expecially the Navy, Marine, and Air Force Air Arms are in desperate need of modernization. You cited the Tanker program, did you know the KC-135 first flew in the 50's and the US Air Force primary bomber is a design dating back to the 40's ? So yes we need these programs , but they need to be managed better and brought in on time and on budget and the contractors held to account when they are not.

Yes, American workers cost more than workers in other countries. What's your point? What do/did you do for a living?

And I'm not going to debate f 18's and kc 135's with you. I suspect if you look close, they are money wasters and they need to go. I'm sure you can make an argument why they are necessary though.

They are necessary where I live since the base which is large influence in our local economy and all they really fly out of here is KC135's. Yes they could probably make a more efficent aircraft but you need a refueling unit such as the one here.

Like I said to Navy. I don't know enough about each weapon to say which are a waste of money. That's the governments job.

Under the GOP, they overspent. No one complained because it was in the name of defense. Well welfare isn't the only place we are pissing away money.

And these kinds of jobs are not as good as jobs that make a product that is sold to the public. Correct? It is us tax payers paying for it. And I'm sure you tea baggers agree that there is a lot of waste in government, even in Defense?

I hope we haven't been funding the KC135's just so you can take home a paycheck. Go find something else to do if thats the case.

It's like saying, "we can't leave iraq because blackwater employees will lose their jobs."

 

[Indiana Oracle]

Sealy, what exactly are you for vs. against? Sans the hyperbole.

 

[Navy1960]

sealy in answer to your question I own a private consulting group that works for the aviation industry. As to your quetions about the merits of one system over the other you miss my point, my point is not the system itself, it the investment in that system and the mission creep that is allowed to happen long enough for billions of tax payer dollars to be spent once the system is about to come online, civilian and military jobs have been in place for years then a stop order comes from DoD resulting in even more loss to local communities both civilian and military. It is not the weapon system itself. As for what system I would argue for or against, if you read closely I think it is high time the weapons that our warfighters have been using for half a century or more that cost more to operate and maintain should be shelved and new ones brought online to replace them.