Premeditation and Genocide

Discussion in 'Education' started by ekrem, Oct 31, 2006.

  1. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Guenter Lewy is professor emeritus of political science, University of Massachusetts, and the author of The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide (University of Utah Press, 2005).

    Revisiting the Armenian Genocide
    http://www.meforum.org/article/748

    It is very long, but please read it, so you know what we are talking about.



    Bernard Lewis, Mid-East Professor and expert, from Princeton University:

    http://www.ataa.org/magazine/blewis_statement.pdf

    The same Bernard Lewis was convicted in France:
    http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/blewisx.htm


    The strongest pro Arguments for the "Armenian Genocide" are the so-called Talat-Telegrams. These telegrams appear in a book by Armenian Andonian.
    If you have not read the Günther Lewy link, then please do it, as you will see, that these Talat-telegrams are accepted as forgeries.
    http://www.meforum.org/article/748

    The Ottoman Empire was in that on the decline and in war with almost every imperialistic country.
    The armenians, that time residents of Ottoman Empire, were armed by Russia to ease the invasion by Russia into the Northwest of the Ottoman empire.
    The Armenians rebelled and killed Ottomans, and even seized the city of Van to give it the invadeing Russians.
    So the area where the Armenian Ottomans lived, was war area with moveing forward Russians and Armenian rebels, which revolted against Ottoman Empire.
    The Armenians were assured by Imperialistic Powers that they would have an independent Armenia after Ottoman Empire would be defeated.

    In Turkey's national archives, Ottoman people killed by Armenian rebels is counted as 512.000 people.
    So the Armenians had to move away from that war area. As they were a factor in Russian-Ottoman war, sideing with the Russians in hope of an independent Armenia.
    Their destination was the Syrian desert.
    And only Armenians from that war area where moved. Not those Armenians in Istanbul or arab provinces of Ottoman empire.

    For Turkey World-War 1 was even earlier. Balkan wars etc.
    All these areas, which Ottoman empire lost, were cleaned of Turks.
    According to Professor Justin McCarthy
    http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/myth/carthy.html

    Who is talking about Turkish-Ottoman deads? Noone.

    The Armenian case is being instrumentalized against Turkey for political reasons by different states. Like France, in knowledge that Turkey will not accept these allegations, does to avoid Turkey getting into the EU.
    The land of Voltaire, where even Professor Bernard Lewis was convicted.

    We Turks will never accept such one-sided view of history.
    The armenian massacres have to be put in the same sentence with Armenian rebels sideing with invaders and Turkish-Ottoman deads through these rebels.
    We do not deny that Armenians died, but we will not accept such one-sided view.

    History should be made by Historians and not by Lobbyists and Politicians in Parliament.
    Turkey proposed many times an international Historician-committe on this issue.
    Turkey has opened its national archives for Historicians, but Armenia, with its people like Andonian who forge Talat-Telegrams deny such a committee.
    Armenia has territorial claims on Turkey and therefore Armenia's first goal is to push Armenian Genocide throeugh parliaments in these world by Lobbyists.
    And governments like France who have a problem with Turkish entry into EU take this game with joy.

    Everyone who wants Turkey to face this part of history has to support such international Historician committee.

    Canada Supports Turkey's Call to Establish Joint Committee for Armenian Claims
    http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=40346

    Armenians are boycotting such intentions and Armenia, like France and Russia do not open their archives for Historians on the Armenian issue.
    Lobbyists will not make Turkey accept such one sided view of its own history.
    But the results of an international Historician commitee we will accept. We even propose such committee.

    Do you know, that Armenia occupies 20% of territory from Azerbaycan since 1992?
    And Armenian Soldiers cleaned this occupied territory from Azeris?
    These territories were occupied by Armenia:
    http://www.karabakh.gen.az/headline/header_logo_left2.jpg

    ----------------

    The Austrian citizen, doctor of historical sciences Erik Faygil directed the appellation to the parliament of his state in connection with Hojali genocide.

    Appellation reads, Armenia occupied 20% of Azerbaijan territory, more than 1 million of Azerbaijanis driven away from their native hearth, drag out a miserable existence presently.

    "Obliteration of city Hojali 26 February 1992 and annihilation of its population was culmination of Armenian crimes. 613 residents were killed, 1275 persons were imprisoned, 1150 persons were heavily wounded and were left on the battlefield with traces of misdeeds on their bodies", - writes professor.

    http://www.today.az/news/politics/18777.html


    Did you ever heared of this massacres and occupying territory by Armenia, where 1 Million Azeris had to leave their homeland?
    Armenia plays the "Victim" card very well, and as long Armenia pushes for "Armenian Genocide" in parliaments through the world, it somehow legitimates its "victim role" and gets a legitimation of occupying territory from Azerbaycan.
    And victims of course can not do harm to others.
     
  2. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Fresh evidence emerged today of a massacre of civilians by Armenian militants in Nagorno-Karabakh, a predominantly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan. (...)
    http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstr.../News/World/Countries and Territories/Armenia


    The Khojaly Massacre was the killing of a large number of ethnic Azerbaijani civilians in the town of Khojaly on 25 February 1992. According to the Azerbaijani side, as well as Memorial Human Rights Center, Human Rights Watch and other international observers, the massacre was committed by the ethnic Armenian armed forces, reportedly with help of the Russian 366th Motor Rifle Regiment.
    http://www.search.com/reference/Khojaly_Massacre

    Why does Armenia flee away from a international Historician committee to investigate what happened in Ottoman Empire?
    Turkey does not run away from such committee.
    And after such committee, its results binding everyside, hiostoricians can investigate what happened 1992 in Nagorno-Karabakh, where Armenia occupies 20% of Azerbaycan's whole territory.

    Armenia has much to loose from such historician committe. That is why in their philosophy Histroy should be made by Lobbyists, Politicians and Parliaments and not by Historicians.
     
  3. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    What i wanted to say is, that for me it does not matter if someone else thinks my grandfathers where Turkish Nazis.
    I know they were not.
    And there are Professors in the world, who think my Grandfathers were Turkish Nazis, and also there are Professors in this world who think my grandfathers were not Turkish Nazis.

    Till this is not definetley cleared with evidence by Historicians and Professors that the Armenian massacres were Premeditation, and in the same sentence Turkish victims are not acknowledged, no Politician or foreign parliament will change my view.

    Palriaments and politicians can not make the work of Professors and Historicians.
     
  4. Annie
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    Annie Diamond Member

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    From two previous posts. I'm confused, do you think 'historians' are somehow going to be harder on Armenia than Turkey? Why?

    another post:

     
  5. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Because when such a historian committee would result in view, that it was not genocide, the "genocide" balloon of Armenia would burst.
    So far, the baloon gives enough shadow for Armenia for example occupying 20% of Azerbaycan's territory and haveing claims on Turkish territory.

    When this baloon bursts, no shadow will be anymore on these issues and they will be lighten up, instead of the genocide.
    I, for myself, would alcknowledge the results of such a committee. One result or the other result.
    But as i said, no foreign parliament, politician or Lobbyist will make me accept their view of Turkish history.
    Politicians are no historians, so only historians are legitimated to say what really happened.

    For Armenia it is risky to accept the establishment of such committee, as you saw in previous posts, that there are Professors who think the masacres were not Genocide.
    So Armenia goes the way by foreign parliaments and lobbyists.
     
  6. Annie
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    Annie Diamond Member

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    Canavar, I'm sorry I don't see what you are saying or trying to imply. Not from any of your postings. Perhaps it is the language? Perhaps you are wrong? Perhaps you see things only from your own point of view?
     
  7. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    This is better English:
    From American Professor.

    http://www.meforum.org/article/748

    Don't get me wrong, there are also Professors, who fully support view that it was genocide.

    So when you say
    This means, I chose one point of view.
    But there is another view, too.

    So which view is the correct one?
    Can Politicians decide this, or better Historians between theirsel, legitimated by a internationally supported committee who clears this question once and for both sides.
     
  8. Annie
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    Annie Diamond Member

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    Being somewhat of a historian, I'd say the historians, in time. Not while any of victims or perps are living. In the meantime, I doubt you have perspective, as I doubt of Armenians.
     
  9. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    You must understand, that Turks will not accept putting Turkish history by foreign parliaments equivalent to NAZI's history, like Armenians want it to be.
    There are countries who give a shit about Armenians, but only play the Armenian cardin politics against Turkey.

    Such country is France. Wanting Turkey stay out of EU because Turkey will have same power as Germany and will have more power than France within EU institutions.
    So French provoke Turkey with Armenian Genocide. French have done much in last years to piss Turkey.
    They know, once Turkey is in EU once and finally, Turkey will retaliate the same way France does now with Turkey.
    So every action of France makes this provocation bigger, that France's politics is holding Turkey out of EU.

    So France saying by law, Turks the same as NAZI and the same France saying that Algerian genocide should be left to Histroians is really double-tongued.


    Look what France says to Algerian genocide:

    http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=10155

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0104/p01s02-woeu.html

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20051023/ai_n16493094


    And now tell me, that Turks will adopt French view of Turkish history?

    We want this to be cleared. Seperated from politics, only left to Historians.
     
  10. Gunny
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    Gunny Gold Member

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    Looks like it's not just the lefties here in the US revising history.:laugh:
     

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