Pope Francis' Encyclical On Climate Change Leaked...

[Treeshepherd]

Tell me, since you've read it. How many times does the concept of "social justice" or "sustainability" appear in there?

I've read excerpts. It seems like many people have only read headlines, or 2nd hand self-serving editorials. I'm not aware that "social justice" was used specifically, or "sustainability". Maybe they were. I don't find either term to be offensive. As a libertarian, I have faith that these ideals can be achieved with healthy peer-to-peer relationships, and I think that's the main focus of the Church as well.

Is the Pope attacking capitalism? We don't have free market capitalism, so if he's attacking that he's talking to shadows. Or is he attacking a debt-driven delusional Voodoo Economics system where banking elites make the rules, insulate themselves and control wealth streams? Is that what he means by an economy of "exclusion and inequality?"

“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.”- Benedict 16th

 

[flacaltenn]

What a bleeding heart can imagine. His prescription is redistribution of wealth among nations and de-industrialization of the achievers. That "lump of shit" pile or whatever he called it -- I'm entirely certain he blames our (YOUR) standard as the cause. He's a socialist. And WORSE -- he's an ACTIVIST socialist in religious garb.

By lump of shit pile, are you referring to this comment?: "The Earth, our home, is beginning to look more and more like an immense pile of filth. In many parts of the planet, the elderly lament that once beautiful landscapes are now covered with rubbish."

Well, there is a gigantic garbage patch swirling around in the Pacific, about the size of Texas. Central and South America have blatant litter problems. China is gross. Here in the US, we've cleaned up our litter issues and exported our manufacturing pollution.

This thread is 10 pages long and I haven't read thru. Has anyone provided quotes to back up the argument that he's an activist political socialist, rather than just someone appealing to individuals to share? The Church commonly argues for governments providing basic needs, but not to the point where free will is squashed and government gets in the way of the formation of organic human connections.

Took me 10 seconds to verify what I THOUGHT I've heard the Pope say recently -- was actually said. He's on an activist tear. Including jumping on the Global Warming "economic redistribution" bandwagon. He KNOWS a good socialist PR campaign when he sees one. And GW is the MODEL for changing economies and redistributing wealth dressed up as science.

Anyway -- I admit -- some or most of these comments might not in the particular Pope dump that we are discussing. But my decision on what he is -- or what he's attempting to do cannot be based on just his latest Press assault..

Here Are 11 Top Screw Capitalism Lines in Pope Francis New Message


"Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a 'disposable' culture which is now spreading. It is no longer simply about exploitation and oppression, but something new."

"Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system."

"The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase; and in the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us."

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control."


"In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule."


"Money must serve, not rule! The Pope loves everyone, rich and poor alike, but he is obliged in the name of Christ to remind all that the rich must help, respect and promote the poor. I exhort you to generous solidarity and a return of economics and finance to an ethical approach which favours human beings."

"Today in many places we hear a call for greater security. But until exclusion and inequality in society and between peoples is reversed, it will be impossible to eliminate violence."


C'mon.. "deified markets"?? ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation ??. Not sure if he's not half hoping for violence with one of those statements.

He's jealous of deifying markets? Exhorting governments and economic systems that defend the marketplace and financial speculation?

He's on a tear. There's a lot of work to be done if the revolution is to succeed. I can not AVOID the obvious conclusion that capitalists should stop FEEDING the Vatican and at the same time, I'm all in favor of MORAL capitalism and would end ENTIRELY govt/corporate collusion tomorrow.. But we don't need a Pope as an adversary to get that stuff done..

 

[Treeshepherd]

"This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system."

Those wielding economic power would include the FED.

A rapidly increasing sector of our economy is finance for the main reason that it's more profitable to start a hedge fund than it is to open a widget factory. And, the way the rules are set up, corporations are incentivized to ship jobs outside our country. When Nixon necessarily took the dollar completely off the gold standard, Finance comprised 15% of GDP. Now Finance is about a quarter of GDP and rising. It's a sector that generates a relatively small amount of jobs, and wields a tremendous amount of political power.

So, while the Pope's language is a bit overly dramatic, I don't disagree with the main thrust of the argument. And again, he doesn't prescribe anything specific to governments like a raise in the minimum wage or support for Dodd-Frank.

Our most deified sacred cow is perpetual economic growth. Because we have a debt-supported economy, we don't have the option of slowing down. We have to consume more and more every year to keep the economy afloat. There's an insanity to that which the Pope recognizes. More importantly, there's an insanity within us which drives us to attempt to satisfy our souls with hyper-consumerism, and that's the main truth that the Pope speaks to.

 

[flacaltenn]

"This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system."

Those wielding economic power would include the FED.

A rapidly increasing sector of our economy is finance for the main reason that it's more profitable to start a hedge fund than it is to open a widget factory. And, the way the rules are set up, corporations are incentivized to ship jobs outside our country. When Nixon necessarily took the dollar completely off the gold standard, Finance comprised 15% of GDP. Now Finance is about a quarter of GDP and rising. It's a sector that generates a relatively small amount of jobs, and wields a tremendous amount of political power.

So, while the Pope's language is a bit overly dramatic, I don't disagree with the main thrust of the argument. And again, he doesn't prescribe anything specific to governments like a raise in the minimum wage or support for Dodd-Frank.

Our most deified sacred cow is perpetual economic growth. Because we have a debt-supported economy, we don't have the option of slowing down. We have to consume more and more every year to keep the economy afloat. There's an insanity to that which the Pope recognizes. More importantly, there's an insanity within us which drives us to attempt to satisfy our souls with hyper-consumerism, and that's the main truth that the Pope speaks to.

Having the Pope go "overly dramatic" gives cover to movements and politics to use him as an "authority" figure for their cause. EXACTLY what happens when James Hansen or Michael Mann go overly dramatic on "global warming". Once these things are said and said WITH AUTHORITY, there is no end to the mischief that a fanatical movement will make of it..

Don't believe me? Go out and Google "minimum wage" and "Pope Francis".. And although he's probably never uttered the words "minimum wage" -- his comments -- like the ones I've posted above give authority to invoke his name and interpret what he meant.. Even Bill Moyers has jumped that bandwagon..

Either suit up and play by the rules, or retain the dignity of your position. Goes for both the Pope and the top "climate experts". Don't insinuate. Dont exaggerate. and don't leave out the facts.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Don't believe me? Go out and Google "minimum wage" and "Pope Francis".

The Pope advises us not to seek answers by Googling.
"When media and the digital world become omnipresent, their influence can stop people from learning how to live wisely, to think deeply and to love generously. True wisdom, as the fruit of self-examination, dialogue and generous encounter between persons, is not acquired by a mere accumulation of data which eventually leads to overload and confusion, a sort of mental pollution".

Unplug every day and go outside and listen to nature and "discern in it a grammar written by the hand of God and a dwelling place entrusted to our protection and care... consider Creation a gift" and a teacher. That's where AUTHORITY lies, according to the Pope, and not with James Hansen or Michael Mann or the United Nations.

 

[flacaltenn]

Well TreeShepard, Do you feel rejuvenated by all the "self-examination, dialogue and generous encounter between persons" that we''ve had here???

And I DO walk with nature everyday where I live. And I respect people of faith for their discipline and traditions..

 

[Billy_Bob]

Why is it left wing morons can not understand the difference of being a good steward and being a fanatic? Its amazing to me how the socialists who hate churches and God find it convenient to use them for their agenda only when the see fit?

I find it amazing that those who would hang Christians for being Christians would now claim the high road by co-opting those they hate. Useful idiots..

 

[Crick]

This is sort of like Murphy and the BEST study. I like Francis, but, I'm an atheist, so we do diverge at some point. When Francis comes out and says you all need to pay attention to this stuff and we need to act, it's just another guidepost in the world of conservatives that's opted to rotate in the same direction as mainstream science. We celebrate that and we point it out to you in hopes that some of you might actually see the error of your ways and begin to turn to the path pointed out by the evidence and the experts and damn near every iota of scientific research ever conducted on this topic.

The world is getting warmer - still. The primary cause of the warming of the last 150 years has been the greenhouse effect acting on human GHG emissions and deforestation. There just isn't any question on that point any more. There hasn't been for a long while, but you've been very resistant. It's time to come around and get right with reality.