Playing Music – Much Better Than Just Listening

[protectionist]

Yeah it's a form of poetry. And not a particularly ambitious one to say the least.

Like I said. Bad imitators of the real poetry song in Post # 15 (required listening)

 

[Sunni Man]

Oh gosh. So sorry to deprive you of the fun of throwing the race card at me BUT....Not hardly. Wanna hear the first rap song, that all of today's imitators imitate ? ? Here it is >> It's All Right Ma.. I'm Only Bleedin" by Bob Dylan. Without this 1965 song, there would never have been a rap music genre.

Incorrect Poindexter.

Blondie's MTV rap song "Rapture" is acknowledged as the first commercially viable rapping style music to hit the top of the charts, and introduce the rap genre into the mainstream of popular music . ......

 

[protectionist]

Incorrect Poindexter.

Blondie's MTV rap song "Rapture" is acknowledged as the first commercially viable rapping style music to hit the top of the charts, and introduce the rap genre into the mainstream of popular music . ......

Maybe your teachers didn't get basic arithmetic down pat for you. 1965 is a smaller number than 1981. The Dyaln song preceded Blondie's song by 16 years. Wanna try again ?

 

[Compost]

I learned to play a couple of instruments. I enjoyed it and am glad I had the opportunity. The trouble is, I don't have a natural talent for music. When you enjoy music and discover you suck at playing it, you'd rather listen to competent musicians play.

 

[Sunni Man]

Maybe your teachers didn't get basic arithmetic down pat for you. 1965 is a smaller number than 1981. The Dyaln song preceded Blondie's song by 16 years. Wanna try again ?

Dylan's song wasn't rap, pre-rap, or anything even close to rap. .....

 

[Montrovant]

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

I haven't listened to much of it, but isn't it just talking ?

Yeah it's a form of poetry. And not a particularly ambitious one to say the least.

Ah, so every rap song out there is not actually a song?

All lyrics can be considered poetry. Does that mean all music which involves singing is actually just poetry?

 

[Montrovant]

... for most, I think listening to the music of others is more than good enough.

I couldn't disagree more.

If someone does not have musical talent, do you think they are necessarily going to enjoy playing their own music or listening to their own music more than listening to that of others?

As I said, I've played music. I still tend to enjoy listening to the music of those more talented than I am to my own playing, in large part.

More, some people may have a talent for a certain type of music, but enjoy listening to other types of music. A pianist might enjoy listening to death metal; while that person could play the music from the genre, it would not sound at all the same on that instrument.

Playing music and listening to music are different things. The enjoyment of creating music is not the same as the enjoyment of listening to music, at least not for everyone.

And again, not everyone has an aptitude for playing music. If someone plays poorly, why would they always enjoy listening to their own bad playing over someone else who plays well?

I'm not against people playing a musical instrument, I think it's a great thing. I just don't agree that a blanket statement that playing music is much better than just listening is true for everyone, or even a valid comparison a lot of the time.

 

[Pogo]

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

I haven't listened to much of it, but isn't it just talking ?

Yeah it's a form of poetry. And not a particularly ambitious one to say the least.

Ah, so every rap song out there is not actually a song?

All lyrics can be considered poetry. Does that mean all music which involves singing is actually just poetry?

No, more the opposite. That is, recitation which does NOT involve singing is poetry.

 

[Montrovant]

Maybe your teachers didn't get basic arithmetic down pat for you. 1965 is a smaller number than 1981. The Dyaln song preceded Blondie's song by 16 years. Wanna try again ?

Dylan's song wasn't rap, pre-rap, or anything even close to rap. .....

Yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that that song is "the first rap song, that all of today's imitators imitate" comes from.

The most common songs I have seen listed as the first rap songs, at least the first commercial rap songs, are King Tim III from The Fatback Band, and Rapper's Delight from The Sugar Hill Gang. They were both released in 1979. Blondie's Rapture is considered the first hit song featuring rap.




I've also read that rap started in the early 70s, mostly by DJ Kool Herc and Coke La Rock. Coke La Rock - Wikipedia DJ Kool Herc - Wikipedia

They are considered the "founding fathers" of hip hop.

I didn't see anything about Dylan anywhere.

 

[Montrovant]

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

I haven't listened to much of it, but isn't it just talking ?

Yeah it's a form of poetry. And not a particularly ambitious one to say the least.

Ah, so every rap song out there is not actually a song?

All lyrics can be considered poetry. Does that mean all music which involves singing is actually just poetry?

No, more the opposite. That is, recitation which does NOT involve singing is poetry.

OK, but there is a difference between the recitation and the genre of music known as rap, isn't there? The rapping itself may not be music, but it is put to music, making a song.

Put another way, if you have a song that is all instrumental, that is music, yes? If someone raps to that song, is it no longer music?

I'm discussing rap as a musical genre, not solely as the vocals involved. Besides, I don't think that all rap vocals are simply recitation with no music to them. I haven't listened to enough rap to speak too deeply about it, though. It's not a style I enjoy.

 

[Pogo]

Rap isn't music. It's a joke, and a degradation of culture, to barbarism.

That's racist.......

Oh gosh. So sorry to deprive you of the fun of throwing the race card at me BUT....Not hardly. Wanna hear the first rap song, that all of today's imitators imitate ? ? Here it is >> It's All Right Ma.. I'm Only Bleedin" by Bob Dylan. Without this 1965 song, there would never have been a rap music genre.

That ain't "rap". Its lyrics are sung. You'd be closer (but still off) had you cited something like this:

​

None of those lyrics are sung. Of course that's already got a style name, "talking blues". Dylan's idol Woody Guthrie (and others) used it a lot.


Probably a closer example, though not intended to be a "first example", would be something like this:

​

Most of these lyrics (all except a short chorus that only appears as a coda at the end) are spoken, not sung, over a music background. Yet this one is never called "rap". Why not?

I'd say because it makes its point, even a blunt socio-political point, without the confrontational in-your-face attitude.

This is basically why I won't categorize what's generally called "rap" into music -- because in that case neither the music nor the message is the point --- the point is the confrontation. It amounts to yelling at people, and music is simply not yelling at people.

 

[Pogo]

Maybe your teachers didn't get basic arithmetic down pat for you. 1965 is a smaller number than 1981. The Dyaln song preceded Blondie's song by 16 years. Wanna try again ?

Dylan's song wasn't rap, pre-rap, or anything even close to rap. .....

Yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that that song is "the first rap song, that all of today's imitators imitate" comes from.

The most common songs I have seen listed as the first rap songs, at least the first commercial rap songs, are King Tim III from The Fatback Band, and Rapper's Delight from The Sugar Hill Gang. They were both released in 1979. Blondie's Rapture is considered the first hit song featuring rap.




I've also read that rap started in the early 70s, mostly by DJ Kool Herc and Coke La Rock. Coke La Rock - Wikipedia DJ Kool Herc - Wikipedia

They are considered the "founding fathers" of hip hop.

I didn't see anything about Dylan anywhere.

That latter video was the first "rap" song I remember ever hearing -- this being the exception that proves the rule, in that it's not confrontational. That would come later. And I heard it in France, on a Métro system platform.

Here's another version ---

​

 

[Pogo]

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

I haven't listened to much of it, but isn't it just talking ?

Yeah it's a form of poetry. And not a particularly ambitious one to say the least.

Ah, so every rap song out there is not actually a song?

All lyrics can be considered poetry. Does that mean all music which involves singing is actually just poetry?

No, more the opposite. That is, recitation which does NOT involve singing is poetry.

OK, but there is a difference between the recitation and the genre of music known as rap, isn't there? The rapping itself may not be music, but it is put to music, making a song.

Put another way, if you have a song that is all instrumental, that is music, yes? If someone raps to that song, is it no longer music?

I'm discussing rap as a musical genre, not solely as the vocals involved. Besides, I don't think that all rap vocals are simply recitation with no music to them. I haven't listened to enough rap to speak too deeply about it, though. It's not a style I enjoy.

The rap is set to "music" only in the sense that it's an extremely stripped-down candy music, there for no other purpose than to fill up the background. And it can't be any more than simplistic candy because then it grabs the listener's attention and you have music. Which they're consciously trying to avoid.

So simplistic, when I hear it all I can think is "good grief, play something adult". I think that's part of why I disparage it. Way too façile, way too childishly simplistic, way too unchallenging (except of course for the aforementioned aggression).

So to return back to this:

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

--- seems to me if you're not reaching for something in the music -- something that isn't readily obvious or expected, if you're making no attempt to expand the basic music structure, if you're in other words not breaking an art sweat (and deliberately avoiding doing so), then it can't count as music.

Simple 12-bar blues is much more a poetry. It too uses a completely predictable music background but offers a cadence that forces anticipation of the punch line -- and in that there is much art, as well as in the circumlocutionalry delivery of the expression. It's nowhere near the blunt instrument that "rap" is. And of course, the 12-bar blues structure offers endless opportunity for purely musical expression in between with the solos.

 

[Pogo]

Oh gosh. So sorry to deprive you of the fun of throwing the race card at me BUT....Not hardly. Wanna hear the first rap song, that all of today's imitators imitate ? ? Here it is >> It's All Right Ma.. I'm Only Bleedin" by Bob Dylan. Without this 1965 song, there would never have been a rap music genre.

Incorrect Poindexter.

Blondie's MTV rap song "Rapture" is acknowledged as the first commercially viable rapping style music to hit the top of the charts, and introduce the rap genre into the mainstream of popular music . ......

Well first of all "hitting the charts" is irrelevant --- that's just marketing. Rapture was 1981, two years after the "Rapper's Delight" tune linked upthread.

Also Rapture has no 'rap' until the actual music has played through first.

I dug that song when it came out. Thought it was well done. But the part where it goes into the rap at the end is for my ears the weakest part, where I tune out. It's exaggerated and pretentious. I like the syncopated horn arrangement on the end when it goes back to real music.

There's also much to be said for the cyclical rhythm section in the back, droning the same thing over and over against which the melody (and the rap) can play in whimsical counterpoint, and it's far more ambitious and complex than your typical rap-crap. It's a trance-inducing repetition (and it helps the mysteriosity that it's in a minor key) that IMO facilitates the spiritual goal of music as a whole, which is to induce a certain alpha state. A state which, at a certain point if one can reach it, dissipates that diaphanous curtain between the sensual world and the Universal Subconcious..

 

[G.T.]

The greatest music ever is Rap......which doesn't require any musical instruments. .....

Rap isn't music. It's a joke, and a degradation of culture, to barbarism.

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

No, but the absence of any musical element does.

Except this is a corny view and false

 

[Tilly]

I play the spinet ATM. I confess I'm not very talented, but people don't wince when I play
I have one by the maker in the pic above, it's very similar but with a different painting. I also attempt to play my harpsichord, grande piano and upright. I'm nowhere near as good as in my dreams, I'm rubbish at sight reading, so memorise pieces, and I don't get to practice enough.
BUT even if you aren't very accomplished, PLAYING an instrument is a really wonderful, if frustrating, pastime. The sense of accomplishment when all goes well is unique imho. I think it's very beneficial mentally too.
The concentration required kicks all your worries in to touch. The same happens with painting, imho.

 

[Pogo]

View attachment 139912

I play the spinet ATM. I confess I'm not very talented, but people don't wince when I play
I have one by the maker in the pic above, it's very similar but with a different painting. I also attempt to play my harpsichord, grande piano and upright. I'm nowhere near as good as in my dreams, I'm rubbish at sight reading, so memorise pieces, and I don't get to practice enough.
BUT even if you aren't very accomplished, PLAYING an instrument is a really wonderful, if frustrating, pastime. The sense of accomplishment when all goes well is unique imho. I think it's very beneficial mentally too.
The concentration required kicks all your worries in to touch. The same happens with painting, imho.

I learned the "dots" when I was about 5 but for me they just get in the way. I play from the right brain.

My Dad played the piano every day but he was the opposite, depending on sheet music. I recall telling him 'you're missing a beat there --- I can't point it out on the sheet but I can hear it'. So I think sight reading is way overrated.

I used to play in a Scottish music group where about half the people used dots and the other memorized. They would take printouts of the sheets, I just needed the aural. Maybe a recording for later reference. I think you shouldn't force your left hemisphere to work if it doesn't want to. Just feel it.

 

[Montrovant]

I haven't listened to much of it, but isn't it just talking ?

Yeah it's a form of poetry. And not a particularly ambitious one to say the least.

Ah, so every rap song out there is not actually a song?

All lyrics can be considered poetry. Does that mean all music which involves singing is actually just poetry?

No, more the opposite. That is, recitation which does NOT involve singing is poetry.

OK, but there is a difference between the recitation and the genre of music known as rap, isn't there? The rapping itself may not be music, but it is put to music, making a song.

Put another way, if you have a song that is all instrumental, that is music, yes? If someone raps to that song, is it no longer music?

I'm discussing rap as a musical genre, not solely as the vocals involved. Besides, I don't think that all rap vocals are simply recitation with no music to them. I haven't listened to enough rap to speak too deeply about it, though. It's not a style I enjoy.

The rap is set to "music" only in the sense that it's an extremely stripped-down candy music, there for no other purpose than to fill up the background. And it can't be any more than simplistic candy because then it grabs the listener's attention and you have music. Which they're consciously trying to avoid.

So simplistic, when I hear it all I can think is "good grief, play something adult". I think that's part of why I disparage it. Way too façile, way too childishly simplistic, way too unchallenging (except of course for the aforementioned aggression).

So to return back to this:

You may dislike it (and I dislike most rap, myself), but that doesn't mean rap isn't a form of music.

--- seems to me if you're not reaching for something in the music -- something that isn't readily obvious or expected, if you're making no attempt to expand the basic music structure, if you're in other words not breaking an art sweat (and deliberately avoiding doing so), then it can't count as music.

Simple 12-bar blues is much more a poetry. It too uses a completely predictable music background but offers a cadence that forces anticipation of the punch line -- and in that there is much art, as well as in the circumlocutionalry delivery of the expression. It's nowhere near the blunt instrument that "rap" is. And of course, the 12-bar blues structure offers endless opportunity for purely musical expression in between with the solos.

And now we're into a sort of "It's not art!" discussion, which is a different thing from saying it's not music.

Again, I think that rap, as a musical genre, might be bad music, but it's music nonetheless.

And, of course, art is entirely subjective.

 

[Montrovant]

Maybe your teachers didn't get basic arithmetic down pat for you. 1965 is a smaller number than 1981. The Dyaln song preceded Blondie's song by 16 years. Wanna try again ?

Dylan's song wasn't rap, pre-rap, or anything even close to rap. .....

Yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that that song is "the first rap song, that all of today's imitators imitate" comes from.

The most common songs I have seen listed as the first rap songs, at least the first commercial rap songs, are King Tim III from The Fatback Band, and Rapper's Delight from The Sugar Hill Gang. They were both released in 1979. Blondie's Rapture is considered the first hit song featuring rap.




I've also read that rap started in the early 70s, mostly by DJ Kool Herc and Coke La Rock. Coke La Rock - Wikipedia DJ Kool Herc - Wikipedia

They are considered the "founding fathers" of hip hop.

I didn't see anything about Dylan anywhere.

That latter video was the first "rap" song I remember ever hearing -- this being the exception that proves the rule, in that it's not confrontational. That would come later. And I heard it in France, on a Métro system platform.

Here's another version ---

​

Since when is being confrontational a measure of whether or not something is music? And why on earth would being confrontational prevent something from being music? Some of the greatest music is intended to be confrontational, IMO.

 

[Pogo]

Maybe your teachers didn't get basic arithmetic down pat for you. 1965 is a smaller number than 1981. The Dyaln song preceded Blondie's song by 16 years. Wanna try again ?

Dylan's song wasn't rap, pre-rap, or anything even close to rap. .....

Yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that that song is "the first rap song, that all of today's imitators imitate" comes from.

The most common songs I have seen listed as the first rap songs, at least the first commercial rap songs, are King Tim III from The Fatback Band, and Rapper's Delight from The Sugar Hill Gang. They were both released in 1979. Blondie's Rapture is considered the first hit song featuring rap.




I've also read that rap started in the early 70s, mostly by DJ Kool Herc and Coke La Rock. Coke La Rock - Wikipedia DJ Kool Herc - Wikipedia

They are considered the "founding fathers" of hip hop.

I didn't see anything about Dylan anywhere.

That latter video was the first "rap" song I remember ever hearing -- this being the exception that proves the rule, in that it's not confrontational. That would come later. And I heard it in France, on a Métro system platform.

Here's another version ---

​

Since when is being confrontational a measure of whether or not something is music? And why on earth would being confrontational prevent something from being music? Some of the greatest music is intended to be confrontational, IMO.

It isn't, sorry if that was misleading and fair point. I mean that the confrontation ---- rather than any music which is just along for the ride ---- is the actual point of the piece. As opposed to music where the music is the point. Or in the case of pointed lyrics (hee hee) there to augment and bolster the music.

As opposed to a cheesy vehicle there for no other purpose than to break the silence so it doesn't sound like an obloquious speech, that can't be bothered to break an actual musical sweat.

Into this latter dynamic we might place such earsores as Muzak, or Disco....