Pepper-Spray by a Cruel and Cowardly NYC Cop

[George Costanza]

I am kind of curious as to the circumstances leading up to this. Obviouisly, the cops were trying to control a crowd. I am not sure what the red barricade was for or why the people were gathered behind it.

I would like to know more before making a judgment. My initial reaction is to not get too excited about this. It looks as though the crowd was not responding to what the police wanted them to do. If what the cops wanted them to do was reasonable, then maybe pepper spraying them when they refused to do it was not so unreasonable.

Sound reasonable?

It sounds reasonable.

This is the official NYPD version of the story.

The Police Department’s chief spokesman, Paul J. Browne, said the police had used the pepper spray “appropriately.”

“Pepper spray was used once,” he added, “after individuals confronted officers and tried to prevent them from deploying a mesh barrier — something that was edited out or otherwise not captured in the video.”

Here are a few more videos of what happened.

(Videos clipped for sake of brevity)

Doesn't seem so reasonable when you get a better view.

I disagree. I watched the 9 minute video. It is pretty clear what went on. At first, the crowd is relatively orderly and restrained and the police are reacting accordingly, i.e., not doing too much - merely establishing a presence.

But as time passes, the crowd gets more unruly and more aggressive. It is obvious at this point, that several members of the crowd are now intent on provoking some kind of physical incident with the police. Now, the police begin to try and tighten things up a bit. The crowd reacts with predictable actions to resist police attempts to restrict them.

By the time the pepper spray was used, the police had a potentially bad situation on their hands. Now, whether they used the pepper spray against the members of the crowd who should have had it used against them is another matter. I didn't see the "sprayees" really doing anything that deserved being sprayed. But that's not the point, and police cannot be called upon to pick and choose when they have a potential riot on their hands.

You want to belly up to the front line of a confrontation like this, you should be ready to accept the consequences. I'm sorry - I call this one for the cops.

And that is really rare for me. Many of you know what I do for a living and how I feel about police in general.

Let me clarify one aspect of this post of mine . . .

I say that if you want to belly up to the front line of a confrontation like this, you should be ready to accept the consequences. While that is true in general, I have to qualify it in one respect. You should be ready to accept the consequences of REASONABLE and PROFESSIONALLY ADMINISTERED police action.

When the police beat the hell out of a no longer resisting suspect or pound a guy to death at the end of a car chase, we are no longer dealing with reasonable or professional police conduct. There are those who feel that if you run from the police, you deserve whatever you get when they catch you. I am definitely not one of those people. If you run from the cops, you should anticipate being taken into custody, cuffed and booked, once they catch you; you should not have to anticipate being beaten to a pulp provided you do not resist once they ultimately catch you.

In this particular case, I think the police conduct WAS reasonable and WAS professionally administered. Hence, it falls into the type of conduct you SHOULD be required to anticipate once you decide to "step to the front" of a demonstration such as this.

 

[Oldstyle]

You might consider watching the video lest you continue to make an ignorant ass of yourself.

The girls that were sprayed were on the sidewalk and complying with the police. One was even politely asking the officer standing there where he wanted them to go.

Actually "you" might want to go back and watch the video again, Manifold. If you watch the long version you'll see the point where the protestors initially break through police barricades...you'll see the point where an older woman with short blonde hair politely asks an officer where he wants them to go...an important question because the protesters have just been told by the police that they have to leave that area...you'll see the point where the young girls who end up getting pepper sprayed are screaming at the police calling them fascists and telling a policewoman that she's a disgrace to her gender...you'll see the point where the police start arresting anyone who attempts to cross that street after being warned once not to do so...including the man with the video camera that Lawrence O'Donnell made such a big deal about.

Bottom line is this...those protesters did not have a permit for what they did...they pushed their way through police barricades not once but several times and they refused to disperse when asked by the police. This was a protest by a small group of activists whose only purpose was to create a conflict with police so their arrests could be recorded and used to gain coverage of a march so small that it didn't warrant coverage at all. Anyone that can't see that...displays a level of gullibility that is scary.

Perhaps you should visit an eye doctor.

Did you want to dispute what I said? If so give specific instances where I'm incorrect.

 

[manifold]

Actually "you" might want to go back and watch the video again, Manifold. If you watch the long version you'll see the point where the protestors initially break through police barricades...you'll see the point where an older woman with short blonde hair politely asks an officer where he wants them to go...an important question because the protesters have just been told by the police that they have to leave that area...you'll see the point where the young girls who end up getting pepper sprayed are screaming at the police calling them fascists and telling a policewoman that she's a disgrace to her gender...you'll see the point where the police start arresting anyone who attempts to cross that street after being warned once not to do so...including the man with the video camera that Lawrence O'Donnell made such a big deal about.

Bottom line is this...those protesters did not have a permit for what they did...they pushed their way through police barricades not once but several times and they refused to disperse when asked by the police. This was a protest by a small group of activists whose only purpose was to create a conflict with police so their arrests could be recorded and used to gain coverage of a march so small that it didn't warrant coverage at all. Anyone that can't see that...displays a level of gullibility that is scary.

Perhaps you should visit an eye doctor.

Did you want to dispute what I said? If so give specific instances where I'm incorrect.

I watched every video I could find.

Your entire account is factually incorrect. I can't say it any clearer than that.

 

[Oldstyle]

Perhaps you should visit an eye doctor.

Did you want to dispute what I said? If so give specific instances where I'm incorrect.

I watched every video I could find.

Your entire account is factually incorrect. I can't say it any clearer than that.

"What" is factually incorrect? I'm very willing to show you where in those video's all of the things I recounted took place. Just tell me what you're disputing. Or are you going to continue to be purposely vague?

And because I know you won't do so...I'll do it myself.

 

[manifold]

Did you want to dispute what I said? If so give specific instances where I'm incorrect.

I watched every video I could find.

Your entire account is factually incorrect. I can't say it any clearer than that.

"What" is factually incorrect? I'm very willing to show you where in those video's all of the things I recounted took place. Just tell me what you're disputing. Or are you going to continue to be purposely vague?

The girls pepper sprayed were on the sidewalk, complying with the police and not breaking any laws. At least that's what I see in the videos I've watched.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

They had the right.
Where do you get the idea that they didn't?
They did not have the right to break the law.

laws can be made to silence people, we need to change those laws and it needs to be done today.

Do you think that a group of 150 people in a city of millions should have the right to shut down traffic simply because they want a photo op to get coverage of their point of view? How is blocking traffic a form of free speech?

Traiffic is shut down at the drop of a hat in most major cities, they deal with it on a daily basis. The city knew there was going to be a porotest they had streets closed. How do truck drivers do it when they want to make a point?

 

[Oldstyle]

I watched every video I could find.

Your entire account is factually incorrect. I can't say it any clearer than that.

"What" is factually incorrect? I'm very willing to show you where in those video's all of the things I recounted took place. Just tell me what you're disputing. Or are you going to continue to be purposely vague?

The girls pepper sprayed were on the sidewalk, complying with the police and not breaking any laws. At least that's what I see in the videos I've watched.

In the 9 minute clip? At 1:44 into the clip you hear one of the protesters yell "Fuck the fishnet!" and then there is video of the barrier lying on the ground as the protesters stream past. At THAT point they are breaking the law.

At 3:05 of the clip you see police pushing protesters back from entering the street. The police give one warning and if a protester attempts to enter the street a second time they are arrested. At that point they are breaking the law.

At 4:58 of the clip you see police officers deploying a barricade across the sidewalk itself and tell people there they must leave that area. At that point anyone who doesn't leave the area is breaking the law.

At 5:10 the older blonde haired woman asks politely where they are supposed to go. The police tell her and she leaves.

At 5:20 the fat girl in black gets arrested with the three girls screaming for the police to stop.

At 5:56 the girls are pepper sprayed by the supervisor.

Now which of those events did you want to dispute?

 

[Oldstyle]

laws can be made to silence people, we need to change those laws and it needs to be done today.

Do you think that a group of 150 people in a city of millions should have the right to shut down traffic simply because they want a photo op to get coverage of their point of view? How is blocking traffic a form of free speech?

Traiffic is shut down at the drop of a hat in most major cities, they deal with it on a daily basis. The city knew there was going to be a porotest they had streets closed. How do truck drivers do it when they want to make a point?

The police "deal with it" by having protesters confined to areas where they can protest but where they don't block traffic any more than necessary. The police put up barricades. The protesters ignored them repeatedly.

 

[Xchel]

I watched the videos and the crowd was out of control. The key is I watched the unedited version of the videos. If they got sprayed for being in that crowd it is their fault. I have pictures and memories to tell you what an out of control protest can come to be like...if you had been here where I am at after June 2009 you would understand how quickly a situation can become explosive and deadly in a protest.

You're welcome to your authoritarian biased opinions.

authoritarian biased opinions? You clearly don't know me very well do you? I dislike the police intensely....that said..in this situation they were in the right. You need to watch the unedited version of the video and then get back to me....the police officer was right in what he did.

Next time you accuse me of such nonsense I want you to take a long hard look at this protest and tell me how quickly a protest can turn into the same thing??? in fact I lived through it and people just like you claimed that it was their right to burn down buildings, cars, break out windows and throw rocks at other people...it was free speech they claimed...which looks to be the peaceful protest to you????

so tell us wiseguy about all that free speech stuff...free speech is limited to not impeding on other people's freedoms and as you see a large group can remain peaceful and a small group can become very violent in short time.....the second pictures those folks filed complaints because water tanks were used to disperse them...you going to complain their rights were violated too?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Here's a protest

The Boston Massacre (the killing of five men by British soldiers on March 5, 1770) was the culmination of civilian-military tensions that had been growing since royal troops first appeared in Massachusetts in October 1768. The soldiers were in Boston to keep order in face of the growing discontent with the heavy taxation imposed by the Townshend acts. But townspeople viewed them not as order keepers but as oppressors and threats to independence. Brawls became common.
Boston Massacre Historical Society

The authorities had the laws on their side

 

[Xchel]

except one problem we aren't fighting a foreign country that is controlling our government..the government is the one we elected and the constitution is what we live by...don't like the rules or leaders vote them out and change them....

this is another picture from that same protest earlier..

 

[Oldstyle]

Here's a protest

The Boston Massacre (the killing of five men by British soldiers on March 5, 1770) was the culmination of civilian-military tensions that had been growing since royal troops first appeared in Massachusetts in October 1768. The soldiers were in Boston to keep order in face of the growing discontent with the heavy taxation imposed by the Townshend acts. But townspeople viewed them not as order keepers but as oppressors and threats to independence. Brawls became common.
Boston Massacre Historical Society

The authorities had the laws on their side

So now you're equating this protest with The Boston Massacre? That's quite the stretch.

 

[manifold]

"What" is factually incorrect? I'm very willing to show you where in those video's all of the things I recounted took place. Just tell me what you're disputing. Or are you going to continue to be purposely vague?

The girls pepper sprayed were on the sidewalk, complying with the police and not breaking any laws. At least that's what I see in the videos I've watched.

1) In the 9 minute clip? At 1:44 into the clip you hear one of the protesters yell "Fuck the fishnet!" and then there is video of the barrier lying on the ground as the protesters stream past. At THAT point they are breaking the law.

2) At 3:05 of the clip you see police pushing protesters back from entering the street. The police give one warning and if a protester attempts to enter the street a second time they are arrested. At that point they are breaking the law.

3) At 4:58 of the clip you see police officers deploying a barricade across the sidewalk itself and tell people there they must leave that area. At that point anyone who doesn't leave the area is breaking the law.

4) At 5:10 the older blonde haired woman asks politely where they are supposed to go. The police tell her and she leaves.

5) At 5:20 the fat girl in black gets arrested with the three girls screaming for the police to stop.

6) At 5:56 the girls are pepper sprayed by the supervisor.

Now which of those events did you want to dispute?

1) Not the girls who got sprayed
2) There is no video evidence that the girls who were sprayed attempted to go into the street
3) Again, the girls sprayed did not make any attempt cross the barrier
4) Again, no law broken
5) Unfortunately, we don't get to see exactly what the fat broad did to get arrested, but she wasn't among the girls who were subsequently sprayed.
6) In the 9 minute video, you don't actually see the spraying, you only see the aftermath. But in the video in the OP, you can clearly see that they were on the sidewalk and making no attempt to cross the barrier.

I honestly can't fathom how any intellectually honest observer can conclude that they broke the law and got what they deserved.

 

[peach174]

Your really full of it today aren't you?

Actually you the one that is full of shit since you repeatedly insist that the pepper sprayed girls broke the law when clearly they did not.

But whatcha gonna do?

Every single one of them that was there, were marching in the street, shutting down traffic before they were penned off to keep them legally on the sidewalk.
That is breaking the law mani.
Every single one of them should have been arrested and fined.
Had they stayed on the sidewalk and continued protesting on the side walk, they would not have had the confrontation with the cops.

 

[manifold]

Your really full of it today aren't you?

Actually you the one that is full of shit since you repeatedly insist that the pepper sprayed girls broke the law when clearly they did not.

But whatcha gonna do?

Every single one of them that was there, were marching in the street, shutting down traffic before they were penned off to keep them legally on the sidewalk.
That is breaking the law mani.
Every single one of them should have been arrested and fined.
Had they stayed on the sidewalk and continued protesting on the side walk, they would not have had the confrontation with the cops.

There is no video evidence whatsoever that places the girls who were sprayed in the street. You're free to speculate, but I'm going to rely on the facts if you don't mind.

But even if they were in the street at one time, clearly they immediately complied when told to get on the sidewalk.

 

[peach174]

Actually you the one that is full of shit since you repeatedly insist that the pepper sprayed girls broke the law when clearly they did not.

But whatcha gonna do?

Every single one of them that was there, were marching in the street, shutting down traffic before they were penned off to keep them legally on the sidewalk.
That is breaking the law mani.
Every single one of them should have been arrested and fined.
Had they stayed on the sidewalk and continued protesting on the side walk, they would not have had the confrontation with the cops.

There is no video evidence whatsoever that places the girls who were sprayed in the street. You're free to speculate, but I'm going to rely on the facts if you don't mind.

But even if they were in the street at one time, clearly they immediately complied when told to get on the sidewalk.

What part of this did you not see?
I see no one there immediately compiling with the police.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJaQvh80L-g&feature=related]9/24/2011 COPS KETTLING AT UNION SQUARE - YouTube[/ame]
They had to be rounded up like cattle.
Protests of the left.
You get yourself in the middle of anarchy you protect yourself.
They all started the uprising, they just refused to do it lawfully and peacefully.

Protests of the right
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDNytTOGs4M]The DC Tea Party Protest - YouTube[/ame]
This was done lawfully.
You get your permits
You pick your area
You don't disturb others (like traffic) and don't destroy anything.
You have the right of the 1st Amendment which says-
the right of the people to peaceably assemble to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[manifold]

Every single one of them that was there, were marching in the street, shutting down traffic before they were penned off to keep them legally on the sidewalk.
That is breaking the law mani.
Every single one of them should have been arrested and fined.
Had they stayed on the sidewalk and continued protesting on the side walk, they would not have had the confrontation with the cops.

There is no video evidence whatsoever that places the girls who were sprayed in the street. You're free to speculate, but I'm going to rely on the facts if you don't mind.

But even if they were in the street at one time, clearly they immediately complied when told to get on the sidewalk.

What part of this did you not see?
I see no one there immediately compiling with the police.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJaQvh80L-g&feature=related]9/24/2011 COPS KETTLING AT UNION SQUARE - YouTube[/ame]
They had to be rounded up like cattle.
Protests of the left.
You get yourself in the middle of anarchy you protect yourself.
They all started the uprising, they just refused to do it lawfully and peacefully.

Protests of the right
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDNytTOGs4M]The DC Tea Party Protest - YouTube[/ame]
This was done lawfully.
You get your permits
You pick your area
You don't disturb others (like traffic) and don't destroy anything.
You have the right of the 1st Amendment which says-
the right of the people to peaceably assemble to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Ok, now I understand.

You're biased because you disagree politically with the protesters.

It's sad that you think that justifies police brutality.

But whatcha gonna do?

 

[MikeK]

I watched the videos and the crowd was out of control. The key is I watched the unedited version of the videos. If they got sprayed for being in that crowd it is their fault. I have pictures and memories to tell you what an out of control protest can come to be like...if you had been here where I am at after June 2009 you would understand how quickly a situation can become explosive and deadly in a protest.

The protest against the World Trade Organization in Seattle, 1999, was "out of control," meaning windows were smashed, firebombs were thrown at police, cars were overturned and police were violently resisted. So in spite of your fantasy-based claim to "pictures and memories" it is patently clear that you don't know what you're talking about.

This Wall Street protest was very well controlled. What you saw was the crowd swelling beyond the constraints set up by police. What began with a few hundred protesters grew into several thousand and the police began to forcefully constrain that growth, which led to pepper-spraying and excessively aggressive arrest tactics by poorly trained and obviously incompetent cops.

 

[Xchel]

I watched the videos and the crowd was out of control. The key is I watched the unedited version of the videos. If they got sprayed for being in that crowd it is their fault. I have pictures and memories to tell you what an out of control protest can come to be like...if you had been here where I am at after June 2009 you would understand how quickly a situation can become explosive and deadly in a protest.

The protest against the World Trade Organization in Seattle, 1999, was "out of control," meaning windows were smashed, firebombs were thrown at police, cars were overturned and police were violently resisted. So in spite of your fantasy-based claim to "pictures and memories" it is patently clear that you don't know what you're talking about.

This Wall Street protest was very well controlled. What you saw was the crowd swelling beyond the constraints set up by police. What began with a few hundred protesters grew into several thousand and the police began to forcefully constrain that growth, which led to pepper-spraying and excessively aggressive arrest tactics by poorly trained and obviously incompetent cops.

those pictures aren't of the WTO protest in Seattle so your arguement that my claims are fantasy based perhaps you need to check out where I blogged about my experiences the entire time after the removal of Manuel Zelaya from office June 29, 2009. I lived those protests every single day as they took place in my neck of the woods. I am sorry that you didn't realize those weren't protests in the US....and mistaked them for the WTO protests...shows who didn't know what they were talking about...oops.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gee, Mike...you watched the edited clips on MSNBC and thought you were getting an unbiased account of what actually happened? Are you REALLY that naive?

I normally won't draw conclusions from isolated tape segments alone. But Lawrence O'Donnell's narration seemed factually convincing, especially around the fellow with the big video camera whose head was rammed into the grille of a parked car. The guy was holding his camera with both hands in a protective manner so what happened to him seemed entirely gratuitous. As did squirting a girl who was behind a barricade in the face with pepper spray.

I will admit to being somewhat biased in my perception because I am 100% supportive of those protesters and the police are acting on behalf of the Wall Street opposition. If the cop had rammed the head of a derivative trader into a car I'm sure I would be less critical of the police.

You're so biased in your "perception" Mike that you've chosen to view a heavily edited version of events instead of uncut versions that give a complete story of what happened that day. Lawrence O'Donnell's narration was a joke. Go back and look at the arrest of the man with the camera one more time on the full uncut video. You'll see that he...like all of the others who were arrested...was warned by police to stay behind the mesh police lines. Everyone I saw got one warning and if they crossed that line out into the street a second time they were arrested. As for your claim that the police rammed his head into a car grill? That's horseshit as well...go look at the video. The police were taking him down to the ground and he glanced off the front of the car. You've dramatized that (as Lawrence O'Donnell did) and tried to make it appear that some thug policemen smashed his head into a parked car. I watched the police arrest numerous people and NONE of them were subjected to physical abuse of any kind. They were taken to the ground and they were cuffed. The crowd that was sprayed with pepper spray had been told to leave an area after previously breaking through police barricades...had refused to do so...and then were becoming unruly when one of their group was being arrested. They GOT what they went there for. They pushed the police to the point where they were arrested and they got air time for a protest that was so small that without the confrontations it wouldn't have warranted mention by a real news organization.

Feel free to post any "unedited" videos from any source. I am sure that NYPD has access to surveillance that will show that the official version of events is true. So far all I have seen is multiple videos that contradict them, from many angles, and they have all apparently been edited professionally before they were uploaded to YouTube.