Pathways to socialism.

[CultureCitizen]

with whatever industries deemed 'necessary' being run by government, or, if you prefer "the people"

There is a crucial distinction between "the people" and "the government". One which I hope people begin to understand.

Me too! Let's talk about that. What is that distinction, in your view?

This would be a good example :

Co-determination - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

1. Board of directors: Prior to 1976, German coal and steel producers employing more than 1,000 workers commonly maintained a board of directors composed of 11 members: five directors came from management, five were workers' representatives, with the eleventh member being neutral. (Note: Boards could be larger as long as the proportion of representation was maintained.)

Thanks to the years during which a co-operative culture has been in place, management requests from workers for proposals to improve operations or increase productivity, for example, are no longer considered mere legal formalities; they represent recognition of the fact that workers play an important part in plant success.

And here is another example :

"Grameen Bank is owned by the borrowers of the bank, most of whom are poor women. Of the total equity of the bank, the borrowers own 94%, and the remaining 6% is owned by the Bangladesh government.[25]

The bank grew significantly between 2003-2007. As of January 2011, the total borrowers of the bank number 8.4 million, and 97% of those are women"
Grameen Bank - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[dblack]

with whatever industries deemed 'necessary' being run by government, or, if you prefer "the people"

There is a crucial distinction between "the people" and "the government". One which I hope people begin to understand.

Me too! Let's talk about that. What is that distinction, in your view?

This would be a good example :

Co-determination - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

1. Board of directors: Prior to 1976, German coal and steel producers employing more than 1,000 workers commonly maintained a board of directors composed of 11 members: five directors came from management, five were workers' representatives, with the eleventh member being neutral. (Note: Boards could be larger as long as the proportion of representation was maintained.)

Thanks to the years during which a co-operative culture has been in place, management requests from workers for proposals to improve operations or increase productivity, for example, are no longer considered mere legal formalities; they represent recognition of the fact that workers play an important part in plant success.

And here is another example :

"Grameen Bank is owned by the borrowers of the bank, most of whom are poor women. Of the total equity of the bank, the borrowers own 94%, and the remaining 6% is owned by the Bangladesh government.[25]

The bank grew significantly between 2003-2007. As of January 2011, the total borrowers of the bank number 8.4 million, and 97% of those are women"
Grameen Bank - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And example of which? The people, or government?

 

[CultureCitizen]

with whatever industries deemed 'necessary' being run by government, or, if you prefer "the people"

There is a crucial distinction between "the people" and "the government". One which I hope people begin to understand.

Me too! Let's talk about that. What is that distinction, in your view?

This would be a good example :

Co-determination - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

1. Board of directors: Prior to 1976, German coal and steel producers employing more than 1,000 workers commonly maintained a board of directors composed of 11 members: five directors came from management, five were workers' representatives, with the eleventh member being neutral. (Note: Boards could be larger as long as the proportion of representation was maintained.)

Thanks to the years during which a co-operative culture has been in place, management requests from workers for proposals to improve operations or increase productivity, for example, are no longer considered mere legal formalities; they represent recognition of the fact that workers play an important part in plant success.

And here is another example :

"Grameen Bank is owned by the borrowers of the bank, most of whom are poor women. Of the total equity of the bank, the borrowers own 94%, and the remaining 6% is owned by the Bangladesh government.[25]

The bank grew significantly between 2003-2007. As of January 2011, the total borrowers of the bank number 8.4 million, and 97% of those are women"
Grameen Bank - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And example of which? The people, or government?

Motly people, though the government did have some involvement in the german co-determination case.

 

[dblack]

with whatever industries deemed 'necessary' being run by government, or, if you prefer "the people"

There is a crucial distinction between "the people" and "the government". One which I hope people begin to understand.

Me too! Let's talk about that. What is that distinction, in your view?

This would be a good example :

Co-determination - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

1. Board of directors: Prior to 1976, German coal and steel producers employing more than 1,000 workers commonly maintained a board of directors composed of 11 members: five directors came from management, five were workers' representatives, with the eleventh member being neutral. (Note: Boards could be larger as long as the proportion of representation was maintained.)

Thanks to the years during which a co-operative culture has been in place, management requests from workers for proposals to improve operations or increase productivity, for example, are no longer considered mere legal formalities; they represent recognition of the fact that workers play an important part in plant success.

And here is another example :

"Grameen Bank is owned by the borrowers of the bank, most of whom are poor women. Of the total equity of the bank, the borrowers own 94%, and the remaining 6% is owned by the Bangladesh government.[25]

The bank grew significantly between 2003-2007. As of January 2011, the total borrowers of the bank number 8.4 million, and 97% of those are women"
Grameen Bank - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And example of which? The people, or government?

Motly people, though the government did have some involvement in the german co-determination case.

Well, government is a body of people. So I'm still non sure what kind of distinction you're making. The difference, in my view, is that people enacting government have the power to force others to obey. "The people" must rely on voluntary cooperation to achieve their ends.

So, regarding your various examples, as long as they are voluntary associations, entered into freely by all participants, I'd classify them as creations of "the people". If they rely on mandate or legislation, the government.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Socialism has a 100% fail rate, what's the fucking point of discussing it?

When did western Europe fail?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Socialism has a 100% fail rate, what's the fucking point of discussing it?

When did western Europe fail?

You mean the place with Greece, Spain and Italy? That's a Socialist success story?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Socialism has a 100% fail rate, what's the fucking point of discussing it?

When did western Europe fail?

You mean the place with Greece, Spain and Italy? That's a Socialist success story?

Did you miss school the day they would have taught you what 100% means?

Jesus Christ you people are fucking retarded.

 

[regent]

Why did Marx hate so many socialists and their socialist programs?

 

[francoHFW]

Socialism has a 100% fail rate, what's the fucking point of discussing it?

When did western Europe fail?

You mean the place with Greece, Spain and Italy? That's a Socialist success story?

Shytte happens when greedy a-hole Pubs wreck the world economy AGAIN, hater dupe. Plus, those 3 are used to it...Europe (and everywhere else ) doesn't have our natural resources, ugly America arrogant shytteheads...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Socialism has a 100% fail rate, what's the fucking point of discussing it?

When did western Europe fail?

You mean the place with Greece, Spain and Italy? That's a Socialist success story?

Shytte happens when greedy a-hole Pubs wreck the world economy AGAIN, hater dupe. Plus, those 3 are used to it...Europe (and everywhere else ) doesn't have our natural resources, ugly America arrogant shytteheads...

Stop talking like a complete fucking moron. You were probably the Obama's English professor.

 

[bripat9643]

The decide whether we spend our time and energy making blue jeans or bombs. It's this decision making power that socialists want brought under the power of government

Ahm... I thought I had made a clear distinction in the OP between socialism and state capitalism.
This is specally true when you have a dictatorship.

"State capitalism" is called fascism in the English language. It isn't capitalism at all. How could it be?

"State capitalism" is just a euphemism for socialism that the socialists don't want to take the blame for.

 

[dblack]

The decide whether we spend our time and energy making blue jeans or bombs. It's this decision making power that socialists want brought under the power of government

Ahm... I thought I had made a clear distinction in the OP between socialism and state capitalism.
This is specally true when you have a dictatorship.

"State capitalism" is called fascism in the English language. It isn't capitalism at all. How could it be?

Nor is it socialism. How could it be ?

Well, in a democracy, the state represents the will of the people, right? And I honestly haven't seen any definition of capitalism that didn't specify private ownership. How is state capitalism not a contradiction in terms?

 

[williepete]

We need to be more like Venezuela.

Said no one ever.

OK, my bad. Maybe one guy.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Well, in a democracy, the state represents the will of the people, right? And I honestly haven't seen any definition of capitalism that didn't specify private ownership. How is state capitalism not a contradiction in terms?

It means the state acts as a "capitalist".

"An investor of capital in business,especially onehaving a major financial interest in an important enterprise."

capitalist - definition of capitalist by The Free Dictionary

China is a good example of state capitalism ( a very successfull one so far).

 

[dblack]

Well, in a democracy, the state represents the will of the people, right? And I honestly haven't seen any definition of capitalism that didn't specify private ownership. How is state capitalism not a contradiction in terms?

It means the state acts as a "capitalist".

"An investor of capital in business,especially onehaving a major financial interest in an important enterprise."

capitalist - definition of capitalist by The Free Dictionary

China is a good example of state capitalism ( a very successfull one so far).

Ok. So it sounds like the distinction you're making between capitalism and socialism isn't with who owns the means of production, but what they try to do with it. State capitalism would be the state directing funds and resources toward profitable endeavors, and state socialism toward something else - presumably the good of the people.

If that's so, then it would seem the difference worth discussing is that between profit and the good of the people. How would you propose to measure the good of the people?

 

[bripat9643]

The decide whether we spend our time and energy making blue jeans or bombs. It's this decision making power that socialists want brought under the power of government

Ahm... I thought I had made a clear distinction in the OP between socialism and state capitalism.
This is specally true when you have a dictatorship.

"State capitalism" is called fascism in the English language. It isn't capitalism at all. How could it be?

Nor is it socialism. How could it be ?

Easy: it's government control of the economy. That's socialism.

 

[bripat9643]

Well, in a democracy, the state represents the will of the people, right? And I honestly haven't seen any definition of capitalism that didn't specify private ownership. How is state capitalism not a contradiction in terms?

It means the state acts as a "capitalist".

It's impossible for the state to act as a "capitalist," so your definition is an oxymoron.

"An investor of capital in business,especially onehaving a major financial interest in an important enterprise."

capitalist - definition of capitalist by The Free Dictionary

China is a good example of state capitalism ( a very successfull one so far).

China is a mixture of socialism and capitalism, just like every other country in the world. The only difference is that China is more authoritarian than the Western welfare states.

 

[bripat9643]

with whatever industries deemed 'necessary' being run by government, or, if you prefer "the people"

There is a crucial distinction between "the people" and "the government". One which I hope people begin to understand.

"I've started this thread to explore the different paths and obstacles that might appear while switching to socialism."

To the OP, switching to socialism is something in his/her head that is occurring and he/she is concerned about obstacles that might impede the pathway.

Let us make sure the obstacles are large and overwhelming because any person who can read understands clearly where the pathway to socialism leads. Two choices at the gulag: Guard or prisoner.

How is the above image related to cooperatives and community owned enterprises?

Market freedom ... not so great for everyone

Brazil is hardly what anyone would call a good example of "market freedom." I believe the current president is an avowed socialist.

 

[bripat9643]

with whatever industries deemed 'necessary' being run by government, or, if you prefer "the people"

There is a crucial distinction between "the people" and "the government". One which I hope people begin to understand.

Me too! Let's talk about that. What is that distinction, in your view?

The distinction is that "the people" is a fig leaf that socialist use whenever they really mean government.

 

[bripat9643]

with whatever industries deemed 'necessary' being run by government, or, if you prefer "the people"

There is a crucial distinction between "the people" and "the government". One which I hope people begin to understand.

Me too! Let's talk about that. What is that distinction, in your view?

This would be a good example :

Co-determination - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

1. Board of directors: Prior to 1976, German coal and steel producers employing more than 1,000 workers commonly maintained a board of directors composed of 11 members: five directors came from management, five were workers' representatives, with the eleventh member being neutral. (Note: Boards could be larger as long as the proportion of representation was maintained.)

Thanks to the years during which a co-operative culture has been in place, management requests from workers for proposals to improve operations or increase productivity, for example, are no longer considered mere legal formalities; they represent recognition of the fact that workers play an important part in plant success.

And here is another example :

"Grameen Bank is owned by the borrowers of the bank, most of whom are poor women. Of the total equity of the bank, the borrowers own 94%, and the remaining 6% is owned by the Bangladesh government.[25]

The bank grew significantly between 2003-2007. As of January 2011, the total borrowers of the bank number 8.4 million, and 97% of those are women"
Grameen Bank - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And example of which? The people, or government?

Motly people, though the government did have some involvement in the german co-determination case.

In your examples "the people" don't actually control the concerns described. A few executives make all the decisions while paying lip service to "the people."