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I've often wondered about the "trumps" and whether they were a literal sound or some other sort of divine announcement. Regardless, though, I think we can agree that the events spoken of in Revelation in relation to or corresponding to each of the "seven trumps" haven't occurred yet. They all seem to be global in nature. That is, the events spoken of seem to have worldwide consequences.
Each instance in the Bible when the word "trump" or "trumpet" is used it's the exact same Hebrew word and it means literally, "trumpet." That being the case we may very well expect some literal sound announcing some portion of the coming tribulation. Whatever the case may be we need to be "watchmen on the wall" and pay attention to the times and the seasons.
Elijah was referred to as the trumpet of God which has nothing to do with blowing a horn.
No, I do not agree that the seven angels have not yet sounded their trumpets. Over the past 2000 years many could easily have come and gone without anyone who was or is expecting a musical sound hearing a thing even if they learned about the trumpet sounding in a grade school history class......
Remember it is the Christian dead who will be the first to rise at the sound of the final trumpet.
I agree with your last statement. But I think mankind will know without a doubt when the trumps are sounded. God wouldn't have given us the warning if He didn't intend for us to know. Can you tell us which horns have sounded and which are still to come and can you provide historical documentation that would coincide with what the Bible (Revelation) says about those events?
Elijah existed long before the Revelation prophecy was given.
Christ will return once and gather up all Christians. By definition, a Christian is someone who has faith in Christ. They who lack faith in Christ are not Christians. So the question becomes: When will Christ return? Before, during, or after a Great Tribulation?
Here's one description of Christ's return:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
"16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Note: When Christ returns, the "dead in Christ shall rise first."
The Bible tells us when the "dead in Christ shall rise first":
John 6:40,
"40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44,
"44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:54,
"54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
The dead shall be raised on "the last day." Very important! When is "the last day?"
The "last day" coincides with the "last" or "final" or "seventh" Trump of God:
1 Corinthians 15:52,
"52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
When is "the last trump?" After the previous 6 trumps. Here's the Bible's description of the 7 trumps of God. Christ returns when the 7th trump is sounded. The previous 6 trumps announce various phases of the Great Tribulation:
Revelation 8:2, "2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
Revelation 8:7, "7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, ..."
Revelation 8:8, "8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;"
Revelation 8:10, " 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp ..."
Revelation 8:12, " 12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, ..."
Revelation 9:1, "1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."
Revelation 9:13, "13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,"
Revelation 11:15, "15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
So, in summary, there have been faithful Christians throughout history. The vast majority have died and their bodies are in a grave. A Great Tribulation is to come. At the "last day" at the sound of the "final trump" Christ will return and "the dead in Christ" shall be raised. This great day doesn't occur until AFTER the previous 6 trumps of God which announce various phases of the Great Tribulation.
disagree DS. The Church is Jesus' Bride. Jesus doesn't punish His Bride. Only unbelievers and Israel will be punished for 7 years. The Lord RETURNS WITH HIS CHURCH to the Mount of Olives at the end of the seven year trib. The Pretrib Rapture is the Church meeting HIM IN THE AIR. Believer's are not appointed to wrath, friend.
I'm simply pointing out exactly what the Bible says. If you disagree with me then you disagree with the Word. If you agree with the Word then how do you answer the Scriptures I posted?
Perhaps you can define "the last day" as a starting point.
THE last day in John isn't talking about the rapture. Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium--yet another 1000 year gap.
Hello ninja007. I count you a brother/sister in Christ and won't let this topic divide me from fellow Christians but I do believe that it's a fairly important topic and I do believe in seeking the truth in all things.
"The last day" of John is the day that believers in Christ who are currently in the grave will be resurrected. They will literally be raised from the dead and reunited with their spirit for when a person dies their body turns to dust but their spirit is sent to Heaven (Acts 7:59). So, on the last day, the dead in Christ will be raised. Now look at these verses used so commonly by pre-trib believers in the rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
The dead rise first THEN we which are alive meet them in the air with Christ. There's the rapture. It occurs on the last day because that's when the dead in Christ shall be raised.
Now ... the Great Tribulation isn't a "punishment" of the bride as you mentioned in an earlier post. Noah and his family experienced a Great Tribulation but were saved in the midst of it. The Bible says that the coming Tribulation will be like it was in the days of Noah. So many faithful Christians will be present during that Tribulation but will be protected just as Noah was.
Points to consider:
1) Christians (Christ's bride) have suffered death and persecution for centuries as a result of their faith in Christ and the tenets of biblical Christianity. Even others claiming to be "Christian" have gravely persecuted Bible believing, devout Christians (Inquisition, etc.). Why would God allow His bride to suffer persecution at the hands of the Inquisitors or the Bolsheviks or the Romans, etc.? Because persecution is a test of our faith and devotion.
2) In line with the above comment be it known that Christ mentions death and persecution of devout men of God:
Matthew 23:35, "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."
Matthew 24:9, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Here Christ prophesies that His bride will be persecuted and killed as a result of their belief. So Christ promises that Christians (His bride) will suffer death as a result of their belief.
3) We all need to study closely the prophecy of Christ's return as described in Matthew 13:38-43. Who does Christ and His angels take from the field and who remain IN the field during the following tribulation event?:
Matthew 13:38-43, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
a) The field is the entire world.
b) The tares are the children of the devil.
c) The wheat are the children of God (the bride).
d) Christ returns with His angels to reap a harvest (judgment).
e) The tares are "raptured" (seized by violence) (see the 1828 Webster's Dictionary and the definition of "rapture").
f) The wheat (Christians/the bride of Christ) remain in the field.
I'll get back to your replies more in detail asap, but let me say this. The Last Day argument is misunderstood by most Post tribbers
| RAPTURE | SECOND COMING |
| At the Rapture, Jesus will remain in the air or clouds (I Thess. 4:17). | At the Second Coming, Jesus will come down to the earth and stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4, 9; Matt. 25:31-32). |
| At the Rapture, the Church will meet Jesus in the air (I Thess. 4:17). | At the Second Coming, the Church will follow Jesus to the earth (Rev. 19:14). |
| At the Rapture, the Church will go up to meet Jesus (I Thess. 4:17). | At the Second Coming, the Church will come down with Jesus (Rev. 19:14). |
| At the Rapture, the Church will leave the earth (I Thess. 4:17). | At the Second Coming, the Church will come back to the earth (Zech. 14:4; Rev. 19:14). |
| At the Rapture, Satan will be very active on earth (Rev. 12:12; 13:2). | At the Second Coming, Satan will be bound and chained and cast into the Bottomless Pit (Rev. 20:1-3). |
| At the Rapture, peace will be removed from the earth (Rev. 6:3-4). | At the Second Coming, peace will be restored on earth (Isa. 9:6). |
| At the Rapture, the Antichrist will appear and go forth conquering and to conquer (II Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 6:1-2). | At the Second Coming, the Antichrist will be seized and cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:20). |
| The Rapture and Tribulation Period will come like a thief in the night to unbelievers (I Thess. 5:2-4). | At the Second Coming, every eye will see Him (Rev. 1:7; Luke 21:27). |
| At the Rapture, the Church will be removed from the earth (I Thess. 4:17). | At the Second Coming, the Lost will be removed from the earth (Matt. 13:36-43; 47-51). |
| The Rapture will before the Marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-10). | The Second Coming will be after the Marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:11-15). |
| At the Rapture, Jesus will come to receive His Church (John 14:1-3; I Thess. 4:13-18) | At the Second Coming, Jesus will come with His Church (I Thess. 3:13; Rev. 19:14). |
| There are no signs of the Rapture (Matt. 24:36). | There are many signs of the Second Coming (2520 days after covenant is signed, 1260 days after Antichrist defiles the Temple, after the Mark, after the Battle of Armageddon, etc. |
| The Rapture will take place in the twinkling of an eye (I Cor. 15:52). | At the Second Coming, Jesus will remain to reign on earth (Isa. 9:6; Jer. 23:5-6; Zech. 14:9; Hos. 3:4-5; Matt. 6:9-13). |
| At the Rapture, Israel’s enemies will try to destroy Israel (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:16; Rev. 12:13-17). | At the Second Coming, Jesus will destroy Israel’s enemies (Rev. 19:17-21). |
Christ will return once and gather up all Christians. By definition, a Christian is someone who has faith in Christ. They who lack faith in Christ are not Christians. So the question becomes: When will Christ return? Before, during, or after a Great Tribulation?
Here's one description of Christ's return:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
"16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Note: When Christ returns, the "dead in Christ shall rise first."
The Bible tells us when the "dead in Christ shall rise first":
John 6:40,
"40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44,
"44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:54,
"54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
The dead shall be raised on "the last day." Very important! When is "the last day?"
The "last day" coincides with the "last" or "final" or "seventh" Trump of God:
1 Corinthians 15:52,
"52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
When is "the last trump?" After the previous 6 trumps. Here's the Bible's description of the 7 trumps of God. Christ returns when the 7th trump is sounded. The previous 6 trumps announce various phases of the Great Tribulation:
Revelation 8:2, "2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
Revelation 8:7, "7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, ..."
Revelation 8:8, "8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;"
Revelation 8:10, " 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp ..."
Revelation 8:12, " 12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, ..."
Revelation 9:1, "1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."
Revelation 9:13, "13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,"
Revelation 11:15, "15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
So, in summary, there have been faithful Christians throughout history. The vast majority have died and their bodies are in a grave. A Great Tribulation is to come. At the "last day" at the sound of the "final trump" Christ will return and "the dead in Christ" shall be raised. This great day doesn't occur until AFTER the previous 6 trumps of God which announce various phases of the Great Tribulation.
disagree DS. The Church is Jesus' Bride. Jesus doesn't punish His Bride. Only unbelievers and Israel will be punished for 7 years. The Lord RETURNS WITH HIS CHURCH to the Mount of Olives at the end of the seven year trib. The Pretrib Rapture is the Church meeting HIM IN THE AIR. Believer's are not appointed to wrath, friend.
Read the Bible. "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation" Read it. AFTER the Tribulation. The Christ returns and then the rapture or resurrection of the saints takes place. Christians go through the Tribulation but are saved from God's WRATH upon the earth. It is God's wrath they do not have to endure - they do endure the Tribulation. Read it carefully. Immediately after the tribulation of those days will the sun and moon turn dark and the trumpet will sound and Christ will be seen returning in the clouds. AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
The trumpet that calls the church is called “the trump of God,” Those in the Book of Revelation are angelic trumpets. They are not the same.
Strangely this is the problem I have with the church "rapture" theory:
(Matthew 24:29-31) . . .“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
If Christ does not show up until AFTER the tribulation, how is it Christians are raptured BEFORE the tribulation?
Thus in my opinion that "rapture" premature timing (2Thess2:1-2) is the escapist mindset many claimant Christians are apt to accept and it instead supports a premature "end" expectation that will come in handy for the final cycle presentation of world government at the end of the cycle.
The globalizing engineers can just continue to feed "new insights" into the mainstream prophetic interpretation centers, and the churches can then be more reliably led into the "new world order", and handy Israel will be the final carrot for that "adjustment" in church trajectory when indeed they have found out by that time, they were here for the whole final cycle.
Mainstream church philosophers are really just centralized aids of mindsets that can be useful while the cycle is playing out towards full globalization, or "world government". "Anti-Christ" and all the common church myths, seemingly based on prophecy, have actually all been hijacked by the elites of the whole Christendom system to be used to guide those "sheep" to world government and it be accepted fully by most of them in the process over say the final 7 to 14 years from when the cycle has actually begun.
Thus imo, the further a Christian is out from that organized delusion system, the more chance they will have to actually avoid the "mark of the beast" rather than get the church 666 stencil already contained in the direction their teachings are already leaning. Meaning the "church" is already "666" to have gotten this deep in error this late in the game, and those leaders are the ones to finish the process to lead their whole populations to world government, as of course "the Kingdom of God everyone!!!".
The deeper one is in the current brainwash, the harder it is to see what is really developing overall. A good study of who has backed Israel national development the last 100 years tells you who it is that is "fulfilling prophecy" that the churches already sell as "God". The final cycle just completes the deception that can already be reverse engineered from the co-development of Church theology to back Israel developments from globalist elite groups having nothing whatsoever to do with Almighty God, but with the "god of this system of things" that these bankers have long been known to be affiliates with.
The churches are really, as a blunt as it may sound, an annex of modern demon worship, and they too have all the attendant "deep teachings" to go along with the minds that control them for greater future purposes. And this is why, to many people, organized Christendom is a long known "harlot" system. But imo it takes a certain amount of self honesty to see it for what it really is. Many are born into it and obviously their parents own pursuit of self gain, as is often the case, eclipsed them questioning their religious leaders, and the institutional "father" already knew this from the day they were born, and their parents parents and so on into the deep dark annals of European history, a church blood bath that it is, and one of the reasons for the unpopular nature of history.
It is easier to just eat the cake yet have it too, the reality does not have to be faced until later, by one pinnacle generation, and the denial has worked very well in the meantime. But another reason to doubt the rapture theory as it stands from that church center. There are truths in the Bible, and that is what they are there to confuse and use for the purposes of the darker forces ruling the world now, and they have to use it first before anything true manifests later.
Indeed Matthew 24:36
funny, but true bible believing Christians know that no man can know the day, only the season.
Strangely this is the problem I have with the church "rapture" theory:
(Matthew 24:29-31) . . .“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
If Christ does not show up until AFTER the tribulation, how is it Christians are raptured BEFORE the tribulation?
Thus in my opinion that "rapture" premature timing (2Thess2:1-2) is the escapist mindset many claimant Christians are apt to accept and it instead supports a premature "end" expectation that will come in handy for the final cycle presentation of world government at the end of the cycle.
The globalizing engineers can just continue to feed "new insights" into the mainstream prophetic interpretation centers, and the churches can then be more reliably led into the "new world order", and handy Israel will be the final carrot for that "adjustment" in church trajectory when indeed they have found out by that time, they were here for the whole final cycle.
Mainstream church philosophers are really just centralized aids of mindsets that can be useful while the cycle is playing out towards full globalization, or "world government". "Anti-Christ" and all the common church myths, seemingly based on prophecy, have actually all been hijacked by the elites of the whole Christendom system to be used to guide those "sheep" to world government and it be accepted fully by most of them in the process over say the final 7 to 14 years from when the cycle has actually begun.
Thus imo, the further a Christian is out from that organized delusion system, the more chance they will have to actually avoid the "mark of the beast" rather than get the church 666 stencil already contained in the direction their teachings are already leaning. Meaning the "church" is already "666" to have gotten this deep in error this late in the game, and those leaders are the ones to finish the process to lead their whole populations to world government, as of course "the Kingdom of God everyone!!!".
The deeper one is in the current brainwash, the harder it is to see what is really developing overall. A good study of who has backed Israel national development the last 100 years tells you who it is that is "fulfilling prophecy" that the churches already sell as "God". The final cycle just completes the deception that can already be reverse engineered from the co-development of Church theology to back Israel developments from globalist elite groups having nothing whatsoever to do with Almighty God, but with the "god of this system of things" that these bankers have long been known to be affiliates with.
The churches are really, as a blunt as it may sound, an annex of modern demon worship, and they too have all the attendant "deep teachings" to go along with the minds that control them for greater future purposes. And this is why, to many people, organized Christendom is a long known "harlot" system. But imo it takes a certain amount of self honesty to see it for what it really is. Many are born into it and obviously their parents own pursuit of self gain, as is often the case, eclipsed them questioning their religious leaders, and the institutional "father" already knew this from the day they were born, and their parents parents and so on into the deep dark annals of European history, a church blood bath that it is, and one of the reasons for the unpopular nature of history.
It is easier to just eat the cake yet have it too, the reality does not have to be faced until later, by one pinnacle generation, and the denial has worked very well in the meantime. But another reason to doubt the rapture theory as it stands from that church center. There are truths in the Bible, and that is what they are there to confuse and use for the purposes of the darker forces ruling the world now, and they have to use it first before anything true manifests later.
Strangely this is the problem I have with the church "rapture" theory:
(Matthew 24:29-31) . . .“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
If Christ does not show up until AFTER the tribulation, how is it Christians are raptured BEFORE the tribulation?
Thus in my opinion that "rapture" premature timing (2Thess2:1-2) is the escapist mindset many claimant Christians are apt to accept and it instead supports a premature "end" expectation that will come in handy for the final cycle presentation of world government at the end of the cycle.
The globalizing engineers can just continue to feed "new insights" into the mainstream prophetic interpretation centers, and the churches can then be more reliably led into the "new world order", and handy Israel will be the final carrot for that "adjustment" in church trajectory when indeed they have found out by that time, they were here for the whole final cycle.
Mainstream church philosophers are really just centralized aids of mindsets that can be useful while the cycle is playing out towards full globalization, or "world government". "Anti-Christ" and all the common church myths, seemingly based on prophecy, have actually all been hijacked by the elites of the whole Christendom system to be used to guide those "sheep" to world government and it be accepted fully by most of them in the process over say the final 7 to 14 years from when the cycle has actually begun.
Thus imo, the further a Christian is out from that organized delusion system, the more chance they will have to actually avoid the "mark of the beast" rather than get the church 666 stencil already contained in the direction their teachings are already leaning. Meaning the "church" is already "666" to have gotten this deep in error this late in the game, and those leaders are the ones to finish the process to lead their whole populations to world government, as of course "the Kingdom of God everyone!!!".
The deeper one is in the current brainwash, the harder it is to see what is really developing overall. A good study of who has backed Israel national development the last 100 years tells you who it is that is "fulfilling prophecy" that the churches already sell as "God". The final cycle just completes the deception that can already be reverse engineered from the co-development of Church theology to back Israel developments from globalist elite groups having nothing whatsoever to do with Almighty God, but with the "god of this system of things" that these bankers have long been known to be affiliates with.
The churches are really, as a blunt as it may sound, an annex of modern demon worship, and they too have all the attendant "deep teachings" to go along with the minds that control them for greater future purposes. And this is why, to many people, organized Christendom is a long known "harlot" system. But imo it takes a certain amount of self honesty to see it for what it really is. Many are born into it and obviously their parents own pursuit of self gain, as is often the case, eclipsed them questioning their religious leaders, and the institutional "father" already knew this from the day they were born, and their parents parents and so on into the deep dark annals of European history, a church blood bath that it is, and one of the reasons for the unpopular nature of history.
It is easier to just eat the cake yet have it too, the reality does not have to be faced until later, by one pinnacle generation, and the denial has worked very well in the meantime. But another reason to doubt the rapture theory as it stands from that church center. There are truths in the Bible, and that is what they are there to confuse and use for the purposes of the darker forces ruling the world now, and they have to use it first before anything true manifests later.
the rapture and second coming are 2 different things. The rapture has to happen before the trib for many reasons.
Strangely this is the problem I have with the church "rapture" theory:
(Matthew 24:29-31) . . .“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
If Christ does not show up until AFTER the tribulation, how is it Christians are raptured BEFORE the tribulation?
Thus in my opinion that "rapture" premature timing (2Thess2:1-2) is the escapist mindset many claimant Christians are apt to accept and it instead supports a premature "end" expectation that will come in handy for the final cycle presentation of world government at the end of the cycle.
The globalizing engineers can just continue to feed "new insights" into the mainstream prophetic interpretation centers, and the churches can then be more reliably led into the "new world order", and handy Israel will be the final carrot for that "adjustment" in church trajectory when indeed they have found out by that time, they were here for the whole final cycle.
Mainstream church philosophers are really just centralized aids of mindsets that can be useful while the cycle is playing out towards full globalization, or "world government". "Anti-Christ" and all the common church myths, seemingly based on prophecy, have actually all been hijacked by the elites of the whole Christendom system to be used to guide those "sheep" to world government and it be accepted fully by most of them in the process over say the final 7 to 14 years from when the cycle has actually begun.
Thus imo, the further a Christian is out from that organized delusion system, the more chance they will have to actually avoid the "mark of the beast" rather than get the church 666 stencil already contained in the direction their teachings are already leaning. Meaning the "church" is already "666" to have gotten this deep in error this late in the game, and those leaders are the ones to finish the process to lead their whole populations to world government, as of course "the Kingdom of God everyone!!!".
The deeper one is in the current brainwash, the harder it is to see what is really developing overall. A good study of who has backed Israel national development the last 100 years tells you who it is that is "fulfilling prophecy" that the churches already sell as "God". The final cycle just completes the deception that can already be reverse engineered from the co-development of Church theology to back Israel developments from globalist elite groups having nothing whatsoever to do with Almighty God, but with the "god of this system of things" that these bankers have long been known to be affiliates with.
The churches are really, as a blunt as it may sound, an annex of modern demon worship, and they too have all the attendant "deep teachings" to go along with the minds that control them for greater future purposes. And this is why, to many people, organized Christendom is a long known "harlot" system. But imo it takes a certain amount of self honesty to see it for what it really is. Many are born into it and obviously their parents own pursuit of self gain, as is often the case, eclipsed them questioning their religious leaders, and the institutional "father" already knew this from the day they were born, and their parents parents and so on into the deep dark annals of European history, a church blood bath that it is, and one of the reasons for the unpopular nature of history.
It is easier to just eat the cake yet have it too, the reality does not have to be faced until later, by one pinnacle generation, and the denial has worked very well in the meantime. But another reason to doubt the rapture theory as it stands from that church center. There are truths in the Bible, and that is what they are there to confuse and use for the purposes of the darker forces ruling the world now, and they have to use it first before anything true manifests later.
the rapture and second coming are 2 different things. The rapture has to happen before the trib for many reasons.
Jesus's parable of the wheat and the tares said the tares are gathered first and then burned then the righteous are saved I suppose by default since the wicked aren't around doing stuff
