Original intent that wing-nuts are ignorant of or worse---ignore.

[editec]

Ultimately, I think they left us with a pretty good document from which to glean basic rights, although not ALL of our rights.

Exactly.

The floundering fathers knew that the world belongs to the living and that is why they created a system of government which could be changed as needed.

They were, just as we are now, forced to compromise their principles to accomodate realities beyond their ability to correct, and they knew it, too.

Each slave is counted as a fraction of a person (!?!) for determining representatives!?

Come on, even the supporters of slavery understood how basically nuts that was.


the floundering fathers were NOT idealogues.

They were practical men who understood that shit happens exactly as we understand it.

 

[AtlasShrieked]

Jefferson apparently wasn't familiar with the concept of a "GOING CONCERN."

Tommie said a LOT of noble and idealistic things.

Then when he was POTUS his actions basically refuted most of them.

ouch!!!!!!!!!!!




power corrupts?

 

[AtlasShrieked]

It's pretty damned hard to find a link that supports my position since my position requires and fairly long read about the thrust of the Jefferson administrations policies over time.

I like Jefferson, but the man was, much like all of us, a bundle of conflicting opinions.

He talks beautifully about the dignity of man, and then owns slave his whole life.

He speaks about limiting government but when he was POTUS he became the dictatorial type he chided when he was not in office.

Power corrupts.

in all fairness, you have it wrong on Jefferson being conflicted on slavery.

Jefferson thought slavery was wrong and would be an issue later. He was not psychic on this. most men knew this was ]coming to a head eventually. the independence/constitution men battled and then put aside for later teh issues surrounding slave owning.

But it's as nuanced as being against big contributions to a campaign yet refusing public money that would limit you. many a campaign accepted money and opted out of the public finance system because to do so would guarantee defeat. standing on empty principles do not put food on the table

 

[AtlasShrieked]

I was referring to Indago's post since it appears to use another's words.

I like the intellectual exercise of reading about Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin.... but every syllable they uttered isn't law.

true.

Nor did they ever anticipate women voting, or so many other issues we face today. Too true about slavery, as well. Ultimately, I think they left us with a pretty good document from which to glean basic rights, although not ALL of our rights.

really? never anticipated? how do you come to this conclusion?

they argued over slavery early on. they all knew it was an issue that would keep cropping up, as it did, time and time again...since day one

 

[Gungnir]

What? Allowing women to vote?

Pfft. Wait til there's a female president, and we find some reason to go to war with someone every 28 days.

As long as the troops stay outside the borders.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

this was a pretty good thread. I wonder why it died?

 

[Anguille]

Atlas Shrieked's avatar reminds me of someone.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Atlas Shrieked's avatar reminds me of someone.

yep. he's friends with you and Shogun I see?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

This is just too friggin' funny. I usually don't get a chance to get into this as most message boarders are unwilling to listen---so I'll just talk to myself as I laugh at those who think they know WTF they are talking about when they quote Jefferson.

Jefferson's dedication to "consent of the governed" was so thorough that he believed that individuals could not be morally bound by the actions of preceding generations. This included debts as well as law.

He said that "no society can make a perpetual constitution or even a perpetual law.

The earth belongs always to the living generation."

He even calculated what he believed to be the proper cycle of legal revolution: "Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it is to be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right."

He arrived at nineteen years through calculations with expectancy of life tables, taking into account what he believed to be the age of "maturity"—when an individual is able to reason for himself.[39] He also advocated that the national debt should be eliminated. He did not believe that living individuals had a moral obligation to repay the debts of previous generations. He said that repaying such debts was "a question of generosity and not of right."[40]

fits in with the ACA arguments coming from right wing Randian Nitwits and the Ron Paul Faction of The Whacky World of Right Wing Politics

 

[regent]

I like Jefferson but always check the date of the quote. Jefferson made few speeches but he wrote and wrote, in fact Princeton was to put his writings into some volumes and they estimated it would take fifty volumes or something like that. Don't know if Princeton carried through or not. As the times changed and as Jefferson changed so did some of his quotes and views, for example his views on government before his presidency and after. I always think the biggest loss for the country was Jefferson's not being being at the Constitution convention.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I like Jefferson but always check the date of the quote. Jefferson made few speeches but he wrote and wrote, in fact Princeton was to put his writings into some volumes and they estimated it would take fifty volumes or something like that. Don't know if Princeton carried through or not. As the times changed and as Jefferson changed so did some of his quotes and views, for example his views on government before his presidency and after. I always think the biggest loss for the country was Jefferson's not being being at the Constitution convention.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

h He also advocated that the national debt should be eliminated. He did not believe that living individuals had a moral obligation to repay the debts of previous generations. He said that repaying such debts was "a question of generosity and not of right."[40]

Jefferson founded the Republican Party in 1792 and fully defined what the first American Revolution had been about (freedom from liberal government) with his Second American Revolution of 1800.

Yes, he wanted to eliminate the debt and prevent any further federal debt. In fact, Republicans since Jefferson have introduced 30 Balanced Budget Amendments and liberals have killed all 30 of them.

Jefferson thought America had, in effect , made liberalism illegal.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

h He also advocated that the national debt should be eliminated. He did not believe that living individuals had a moral obligation to repay the debts of previous generations. He said that repaying such debts was "a question of generosity and not of right."[40]

Jefferson founded the Republican Party in 1792 and fully defined what the first American Revolution had been about (freedom from liberal government) with his Second American Revolution of 1800.

Yes, he wanted to eliminate the debt and prevent any further federal debt. In fact, Republicans since Jefferson have introduced 30 Balanced Budget Amendments and liberals have killed all 30 of them.

Jefferson thought America had, in effect , made liberalism illegal.

actions v. words: Louisiana Purchase

 

[blimpo]

h He also advocated that the national debt should be eliminated. He did not believe that living individuals had a moral obligation to repay the debts of previous generations. He said that repaying such debts was "a question of generosity and not of right."[40]

Jefferson founded the Republican Party in 1792 and fully defined what the first American Revolution had been about (freedom from liberal government) with his Second American Revolution of 1800.

Yes, he wanted to eliminate the debt and prevent any further federal debt. In fact, Republicans since Jefferson have introduced 30 Balanced Budget Amendments and liberals have killed all 30 of them.

Jefferson thought America had, in effect , made liberalism illegal.

actions v. words: Louisiana Purchase

Exactly right...

So liberal and loose interpretation of the Constitution (as opposed to a conservative's strict interpretation) that his purchase created an uproar due to strict viewers saying the Constitution made no provision, therefore didn't allow the federal government to buy territory.
Although around 3 or 4 cents an acre, the price was considered way more than the country could afford.

 

[manifold]

hey D,

Why you bumping AtlasShrieked threads? Don't you know that dude was a fucking asshole?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I laugh at those who think they know WTF they are talking about when they quote Jefferson

but you forgot to say what quotes they use that you object to, why those quotes are no good, and why your quotes are good?

You did not think before you posted pure gibberish nonsense!


The most important thing about Jefferson is that he Founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from liberal government. The modern Republican Party is identical in philosophy.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Jefferson founded the Republican Party in 1792 and fully defined what the first American Revolution had been about (freedom from liberal government) with his Second American Revolution of 1800.

Yes, he wanted to eliminate the debt and prevent any further federal debt. In fact, Republicans since Jefferson have introduced 30 Balanced Budget Amendments and liberals have killed all 30 of them.

Jefferson thought America had, in effect , made liberalism illegal.

actions v. words: Louisiana Purchase

Exactly right...

So liberal and loose interpretation of the Constitution (as opposed to a conservative's strict interpretation) that his purchase created an uproar due to strict viewers saying the Constitution made no provision, therefore didn't allow the federal government to buy territory.
Although around 3 or 4 cents an acre, the price was considered way more than the country could afford.

most importantly it was a one-off event not remotely contemplated by the Constitution that all ideologies thank God for; so it is irrelevent to this thread and to Jefferson's philosophy of freedom from liberal government.

 

[regent]

Yeah

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I laugh at those who think they know WTF they are talking about when they quote Jefferson

but you forgot to say what quotes they use that you object to, why those quotes are no good, and why your quotes are good?

You did not think before you posted pure gibberish nonsense!


The most important thing about Jefferson is that he Founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from liberal government. The modern Republican Party is identical in philosophy.

you have a serious case of shit-talkin

 

[blimpo]

actions v. words: Louisiana Purchase

Exactly right...

So liberal and loose interpretation of the Constitution (as opposed to a conservative's strict interpretation) that his purchase created an uproar due to strict viewers saying the Constitution made no provision, therefore didn't allow the federal government to buy territory.
Although around 3 or 4 cents an acre, the price was considered way more than the country could afford.

most importantly it was a one-off event not remotely contemplated by the Constitution that all ideologies thank God for; so it is irrelevent to this thread and to Jefferson's philosophy of freedom from liberal government.

Wrongo- it has everything to do with it.

What is more important. What someone says or what that same person does.

Action is louder than words.