Ok, if it's not heredity...

[Ravi]

Yeah, sure Mani, that must be it. I'm afraid to know the truth...it's got nothing to do with the lack of evidence.

Here's some empirical evidence for you kid...80% of the time when I stop working for the day it gets dark. Therefore my work schedule controls the sun.

 

[del]

Yeah, sure Mani, that must be it. I'm afraid to know the truth...it's got nothing to do with the lack of evidence.

Here's some empirical evidence for you kid...80% of the time when I stop working for the day it gets dark. Therefore my work schedule controls the sun.

can you work late next tuesday?
i want to sneak in a few holes of golf after work.

 

[Ravi]

Yeah, sure Mani, that must be it. I'm afraid to know the truth...it's got nothing to do with the lack of evidence.

Here's some empirical evidence for you kid...80% of the time when I stop working for the day it gets dark. Therefore my work schedule controls the sun.

can you work late next tuesday?
i want to sneak in a few holes of golf after work.

Consider it done. I'll also make sure it doesn't rain by not washing my car.

 

[del]

Yeah, sure Mani, that must be it. I'm afraid to know the truth...it's got nothing to do with the lack of evidence.

Here's some empirical evidence for you kid...80% of the time when I stop working for the day it gets dark. Therefore my work schedule controls the sun.

can you work late next tuesday?
i want to sneak in a few holes of golf after work.

Consider it done. I'll also make sure it doesn't rain by not washing my car.

thanks, ravi, the devil's in the details.

 

[Amanda]

Ok, I kinda lost track of all this because I've been so busy but it seems like despite the thread title the argument is right back to genetics, etc.

I appreciate the spirited discussion but... doesn't anyone have anything more to say but environment or culture's effect?

Also as a little FWIW, I don't remember who said it but someone mentioned that I hadn't mentioned a specific race in one of my examples. Yup, that's right I didn't. And I did it that way on purpose. The purpose? To see how may libs would just assume I meant blacks. The result? I think we showed it's just as easy to show "racist" attitudes regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum. Thanks for playing along with my little experiment.

 

[manifold]

Yeah, sure Mani, that must be it. I'm afraid to know the truth...it's got nothing to do with the lack of evidence.

Here's some empirical evidence for you kid...80% of the time when I stop working for the day it gets dark. Therefore my work schedule controls the sun.

It's ok Ravgun, I understand your refusal to acknowledge the simple truth that inherited genes play a critical role in determining who we are. I do. And I forgive you.

 

[johnrocks]

I think some things are genetic, there are diseases that affect certain races over others for example, other things are social and environmental, a lot has to do with culture and education. I guess there isn't a simple cookie cutter solution to this and as long as political correctness dictates how it is discussed, I doubt much will be resolved.

 

[Ravi]

Yeah, sure Mani, that must be it. I'm afraid to know the truth...it's got nothing to do with the lack of evidence.

Here's some empirical evidence for you kid...80% of the time when I stop working for the day it gets dark. Therefore my work schedule controls the sun.

It's ok Ravgun, I understand your refusal to acknowledge the simple truth that inherited genes play a critical role in determining who we are. I do. And I forgive you.

I think you need to forgive yourself, sweetie. Race may determine part of who you are, but it doesn't determine intelligence. It also doesn't determine musical aptitude or the ability of knowing when to make that pass to the end zone, or sexual orientation, or countless other things.

You're an IQ Fundie, Mani, and it's actually kind of cute.

 

[manifold]

It's ok Ravgun. You've been brainwashed to deny what you know to be true. It's not your fault.

 

[manifold]

Yeah, sure Mani, that must be it. I'm afraid to know the truth...it's got nothing to do with the lack of evidence.

Here's some empirical evidence for you kid...80% of the time when I stop working for the day it gets dark. Therefore my work schedule controls the sun.

It's ok Ravgun, I understand your refusal to acknowledge the simple truth that inherited genes play a critical role in determining who we are. I do. And I forgive you.

I think you need to forgive yourself, sweetie. Race may determine part of who you are, but it doesn't determine intelligence. It also doesn't determine musical aptitude or the ability of knowing when to make that pass to the end zone, or sexual orientation, or countless other things.

Not to change the subject, but I find it interesting that you think sexual orientation is a choice. I mean, if you don't think it's nature, what else could it be?

 

[Ravi]

It's ok Ravgun. You've been brainwashed to deny what you know to be true. It's not your fault.

Mani, I've got to ask...how many children's shows do you watch per week on average?

 

[manifold]

Nice deflection.

And you never answered my question. Is intelligence determined by nature or nurture?

 

[Ravi]

It's ok Ravgun, I understand your refusal to acknowledge the simple truth that inherited genes play a critical role in determining who we are. I do. And I forgive you.

I think you need to forgive yourself, sweetie. Race may determine part of who you are, but it doesn't determine intelligence. It also doesn't determine musical aptitude or the ability of knowing when to make that pass to the end zone, or sexual orientation, or countless other things.

Not to change the subject, but I find it interesting that you think sexual orientation is a choice. I mean, if you don't think it's nature, what else could it be?

Silly boy. I said it wasn't determined by race. You really, really are hung up on race.

 

[Ravi]

Nice deflection.

And you never answered my question. Is intelligence determined by nature or nurture?

Both. But it isn't determined by race...at least I've never seen any credible evidence to support that notion.

 

[Ravi]

btw, Mani, if what you claim is true shouldn't we be treating these sub-par races like children...giving them lighter sentences than adults for crimes, not allowing them to vote, not allowing them to sign contracts? Patting their little heads when they fuck up and giving them a popsicle? Because you also believe people can't get any smarter, right?

Maybe we should all just become subservient to Asians since they score best on standardized testing.

And ban the Catholic religion, because it apparently makes the Irish stupid.

 

[manifold]

Nice deflection.

And you never answered my question. Is intelligence determined by nature or nurture?

Both. But it isn't determined by race...at least I've never seen any credible evidence to support that notion.

Fine. Explain to me what nature, heredity and race mean to you. Because I think it is contradictory to claim that anything can be determined by nature but not by heredity and likewise that anything can be determined by heredity, yet be completely unrelated to race. To me that position is logically indefensible. But if you can defend it, I'm certainly interested to hear it.

 

[manifold]

btw, Mani, if what you claim is true shouldn't we be treating these sub-par races like children...giving them lighter sentences than adults for crimes, not allowing them to vote, not allowing them to sign contracts? Patting their little heads when they fuck up and giving them a popsicle? Because you also believe people can't get any smarter, right?

No. That would be retarded. But there you go again, trying to put words in my mouth.

 

[Ravi]

Nice deflection.

And you never answered my question. Is intelligence determined by nature or nurture?

Both. But it isn't determined by race...at least I've never seen any credible evidence to support that notion.

Fine. Explain to me what nature, heredity and race mean to you. Because I think it is contradictory to claim that anything can be determined by nature but not by heredity and likewise that anything can be determined by heredity, yet be completely unrelated to race. To me that position is logically indefensible. But if you can defend it, I'm certainly interested to hear it.

I can't explain it, no more than you can explain credibly that God exists. All I can tell you is that race doesn't determine everything but it does determine some things...skin color, eye color, physical features.

I believe we are all related and that we evolved to deal with the physical environment our ancestors lived in. Hence dark skinned people in hot climates to protect from UV radiation and light skinned people in cold climates to benefit from UV radiation (vitamin D). And circumstance or living conditions allowed or forced us to advance technology...for instance, a big city state like London forced the Brits to come up with ways to live together and thrive. I guess I believe circumstance effects intelligence more than any other factor. When you don't have to worry about gathering food, but you do have to worry about sanitation...you tend to focus on solutions to your present problems.

So, IMO, if Africans, for example, lived in huge city states they would have advanced in technology and if Europeans lived on the savannahs they would not have had the need to advance.

You also need to decide...which IS the more intelligent way to live?

What you are doing is taking one rather narrow and subjective test and claiming that it proves an objective fact. You totally ignore other factors...for instance, why do Catholics in Northern Ireland score 15% lower than Protestants? They have the same racial heritage.

 

[Ravi]

btw, Mani, if what you claim is true shouldn't we be treating these sub-par races like children...giving them lighter sentences than adults for crimes, not allowing them to vote, not allowing them to sign contracts? Patting their little heads when they fuck up and giving them a popsicle? Because you also believe people can't get any smarter, right?

No. That would be retarded. But there you go again, trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm just trying to understand why it matters to you.

 

[manifold]

btw, Mani, if what you claim is true shouldn't we be treating these sub-par races like children...giving them lighter sentences than adults for crimes, not allowing them to vote, not allowing them to sign contracts? Patting their little heads when they fuck up and giving them a popsicle? Because you also believe people can't get any smarter, right?

No. That would be retarded. But there you go again, trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm just trying to understand why it matters to you.

Honestly, it doesn't.

But I argue about things that don't matter to me all the time.