Obama & The Treasury Go After "inversions"

[Mac1958]

Hey Mac, how about using your software to tell us if this is true or not:

For example, after-tax corporate profits in the third quarter topped 11% of gross domestic product for the first time since the records started in 1947. At the same time, taxes paid by corporations has declined nearly 5% in the third quarter compared with a year earlier.

How to Measure Corporate America s Huge Profits - Real Time Economics - WSJ

That was from Dec of last year and things have not really changed only got better for corporations, but check your software. I used this because it has some good information on how corporate performance is measured.

Which corporations? It doesn't say. I brought up several questions you have declined to answer. There is simply not enough information here. What percentage of corporations are enjoying record profits? What percentage of corporations are losing money? And what happens to them if their taxes go up?

You're illustrating my point. You're trying to base an argument on simplistic, shallow data. If you think corporations should pay more taxes, I just want to know how that will affect domestic corporations on a macro basis, not an individual basis.

We're not going to agree on this, but knock yourself out. It's my profession, and I'd need a much better argument than this to change my mind. I'm talking to business owner clients and fund managers and fund reps and traders every day. People who are neck deep in it, 7/24/365, like I am.

.

 

[Ernie S.]

[

Cuz then we'd have a lot more m.]But joe hates corporations and will gladly pay more for his happy meal if it means Mickey D's will pay their "fair share".

Actualy, I'd be happy if they stopped pushing the cost of their labor force off on the rest of us.

Joe, you dumb shit! Labor cost is a cost of doing business just like buying beef and buns. If they pay more, you'll pay more. Mickey D's it not in business to provide you with burgers at a price YOU set.

Feel free to eat elsewhere, but Wendy's figures their labor cost in their prices too.

 

[Ernie S.]

The officers of a corporation are mandated by law to work in a fiduciary capacity at all times.

American law.

American law.

That means their job is to maximize shareholder value.

If they do not, they can and will be sued by their shareholders.

And they will lose.

If you want to change that law, and I know you do, great. Do it. We can trust the government to run stuff.

.

They can sue all day.

HUGE tarriffs on companies that offshore. And they are outed publically.

Betcha they find a way to make it work after that.

Huge tariffs would put foreign products at a price competitive with US made products, I suppose. Now, you have a choice when you buy a TV. You can buy a Sanyo for $900 or a US made Séura for $4,000. How much are you willing to pay for a TV, Joe? How big a tariff should Dear Leader put on a Sanyo TV?

 

[Mac1958]

The officers of a corporation are mandated by law to work in a fiduciary capacity at all times.

American law.

American law.

That means their job is to maximize shareholder value.

If they do not, they can and will be sued by their shareholders.

And they will lose.

If you want to change that law, and I know you do, great. Do it. We can trust the government to run stuff.

.

They can sue all day.

HUGE tarriffs on companies that offshore. And they are outed publically.

Betcha they find a way to make it work after that.

Huge tariffs would put foreign products at a price competitive with US made products, I suppose. Now, you have a choice when you buy a TV. You can buy a Sanyo for $900 or a US made Séura for $4,000. How much are you willing to pay for a TV, Joe? How big a tariff should Dear Leader put on a Sanyo TV?

This is about punishment, nothing more.

.

 

[The Rabbi]

The officers of a corporation are mandated by law to work in a fiduciary capacity at all times.

American law.

American law.

That means their job is to maximize shareholder value.

If they do not, they can and will be sued by their shareholders.

And they will lose.

If you want to change that law, and I know you do, great. Do it. We can trust the government to run stuff.

.

They can sue all day.

HUGE tarriffs on companies that offshore. And they are outed publically.

Betcha they find a way to make it work after that.

Huge tariffs would put foreign products at a price competitive with US made products, I suppose. Now, you have a choice when you buy a TV. You can buy a Sanyo for $900 or a US made Séura for $4,000. How much are you willing to pay for a TV, Joe? How big a tariff should Dear Leader put on a Sanyo TV?

This is about punishment, nothing more.

.

Unfortunately those punished will not be corporations but their workers. If companies cannot repatriate their money earned abroad to invest in US operations, then they will invest the money elsewhere.
The Obama Administration is favoring Chinese and Vietnamese workers over American workers. Doesn't anyone see this??

 

[Mac1958]

The officers of a corporation are mandated by law to work in a fiduciary capacity at all times.

American law.

American law.

That means their job is to maximize shareholder value.

If they do not, they can and will be sued by their shareholders.

And they will lose.

If you want to change that law, and I know you do, great. Do it. We can trust the government to run stuff.

.

They can sue all day.

HUGE tarriffs on companies that offshore. And they are outed publically.

Betcha they find a way to make it work after that.

Huge tariffs would put foreign products at a price competitive with US made products, I suppose. Now, you have a choice when you buy a TV. You can buy a Sanyo for $900 or a US made Séura for $4,000. How much are you willing to pay for a TV, Joe? How big a tariff should Dear Leader put on a Sanyo TV?

This is about punishment, nothing more.

.

Unfortunately those punished will not be corporations but their workers. If companies cannot repatriate their money earned abroad to invest in US operations, then they will invest the money elsewhere.
The Obama Administration is favoring Chinese and Vietnamese workers over American workers. Doesn't anyone see this??

Yes, and it's already happening, a hyper-competitive global economy, with other countries understanding it better than we do.

I don't know whether the Left really doesn't see it, or whether they really don't care.

Weaker business means stronger government, after all.

.

 

[Mac1958]

.....

 

[The Rabbi]

The officers of a corporation are mandated by law to work in a fiduciary capacity at all times.

American law.

American law.

That means their job is to maximize shareholder value.

If they do not, they can and will be sued by their shareholders.

And they will lose.

If you want to change that law, and I know you do, great. Do it. We can trust the government to run stuff.

.

They can sue all day.

HUGE tarriffs on companies that offshore. And they are outed publically.

Betcha they find a way to make it work after that.

Huge tariffs would put foreign products at a price competitive with US made products, I suppose. Now, you have a choice when you buy a TV. You can buy a Sanyo for $900 or a US made Séura for $4,000. How much are you willing to pay for a TV, Joe? How big a tariff should Dear Leader put on a Sanyo TV?

This is about punishment, nothing more.

.

Unfortunately those punished will not be corporations but their workers. If companies cannot repatriate their money earned abroad to invest in US operations, then they will invest the money elsewhere.
The Obama Administration is favoring Chinese and Vietnamese workers over American workers. Doesn't anyone see this??

Yes, and it's already happening, a hyper-competitive global economy, with other countries understanding it better than we do.

I don't know whether the Left really doesn't see it, or whether they really don't care.

Weaker business means stronger government, after all.

.

They're fixated on punishing people perceived as more successful. Obama himself said he woudl raise capital gains taxes, even though it was actually bring less money to the Treasury because of "fairness."
It's all they have. Class warfare.

 

[gipper]

They can sue all day.

HUGE tarriffs on companies that offshore. And they are outed publically.

Betcha they find a way to make it work after that.

Huge tariffs would put foreign products at a price competitive with US made products, I suppose. Now, you have a choice when you buy a TV. You can buy a Sanyo for $900 or a US made Séura for $4,000. How much are you willing to pay for a TV, Joe? How big a tariff should Dear Leader put on a Sanyo TV?

This is about punishment, nothing more.

.

Unfortunately those punished will not be corporations but their workers. If companies cannot repatriate their money earned abroad to invest in US operations, then they will invest the money elsewhere.
The Obama Administration is favoring Chinese and Vietnamese workers over American workers. Doesn't anyone see this??

Yes, and it's already happening, a hyper-competitive global economy, with other countries understanding it better than we do.

I don't know whether the Left really doesn't see it, or whether they really don't care.

Weaker business means stronger government, after all.

.

They're fixated on punishing people perceived as more successful. Obama himself said he woudl raise capital gains taxes, even though it was actually bring less money to the Treasury because of "fairness."
It's all they have. Class warfare.

It may be more than class warfare or making government stronger, at least in the minds of elite left. It may be bigger than those two reasons. It could be about damaging the private sector to create an ever increasing unemployed population, so that more and more Americans become wards of the state. I suppose this could be included within the making government stronger reason.

Once they have irreparably harmed the private sector, they will then claim capitalism doesn't work...so we need socialism with a very small left elite in total control. This propaganda claim is made today and many Americans fall for it.

Either way it shows the heinous nature of the state.

 

[Freewill]

Hey Mac, how about using your software to tell us if this is true or not:

For example, after-tax corporate profits in the third quarter topped 11% of gross domestic product for the first time since the records started in 1947. At the same time, taxes paid by corporations has declined nearly 5% in the third quarter compared with a year earlier.

How to Measure Corporate America s Huge Profits - Real Time Economics - WSJ

That was from Dec of last year and things have not really changed only got better for corporations, but check your software. I used this because it has some good information on how corporate performance is measured.

Which corporations? It doesn't say. I brought up several questions you have declined to answer. There is simply not enough information here. What percentage of corporations are enjoying record profits? What percentage of corporations are losing money? And what happens to them if their taxes go up?

You're illustrating my point. You're trying to base an argument on simplistic, shallow data. If you think corporations should pay more taxes, I just want to know how that will affect domestic corporations on a macro basis, not an individual basis.

We're not going to agree on this, but knock yourself out. It's my profession, and I'd need a much better argument than this to change my mind. I'm talking to business owner clients and fund managers and fund reps and traders every day. People who are neck deep in it, 7/24/365, like I am.

.

Hey Mac, how about using your software to tell us if this is true or not:

For example, after-tax corporate profits in the third quarter topped 11% of gross domestic product for the first time since the records started in 1947. At the same time, taxes paid by corporations has declined nearly 5% in the third quarter compared with a year earlier.

How to Measure Corporate America s Huge Profits - Real Time Economics - WSJ

That was from Dec of last year and things have not really changed only got better for corporations, but check your software. I used this because it has some good information on how corporate performance is measured.

Which corporations? It doesn't say. I brought up several questions you have declined to answer. There is simply not enough information here. What percentage of corporations are enjoying record profits? What percentage of corporations are losing money? And what happens to them if their taxes go up?

You're illustrating my point. You're trying to base an argument on simplistic, shallow data. If you think corporations should pay more taxes, I just want to know how that will affect domestic corporations on a macro basis, not an individual basis.

We're not going to agree on this, but knock yourself out. It's my profession, and I'd need a much better argument than this to change my mind. I'm talking to business owner clients and fund managers and fund reps and traders every day. People who are neck deep in it, 7/24/365, like I am.

.

Apple
ExxonMobil
Burger King
Kellogg,
FedEx
Best Buy

S&P Capital IQ reports that the average profit margin for an S&P 500 company increased from 8.1 percent to 9.1 during the first 6 months of 2013.

So I hope that answers your first very obvious question.

I am not sure what you think we are not going to agree upon. All I originally asked is why you think going after inversions is wrong. I am guessing because you think it hurts corporations, which considering their drop in tax burden it doesn't seem that would be the case. The reason that the corporations showing record profit is because they are doing more with less and that less is people. So as their tax burden has DROPPED they have dropped people who pay taxes. A lose/lose for a country with a crumpling infrastructure.

 

[Silhouette]

And away we go:

Treasury unveils measures to combat tax inversions - MarketWatch

That'll teach those corporations to follow their legal mandate to maximize shareholder value.

Good thing this administration is so business-friendly.



.

They are cheating the system. An equivalent event would be individual taxpayers maximizing their personal assets by manipulating code to defraud the IRS. This malignant capitialism thing has to be reined in. If the companies themselves cannot see fit to return to that body [The United States of America] that made them rich in the first place, then they have to be brought around by regulation. They are lying in the very bed they made via their insolence and arrogance.

 

[The Rabbi]

And away we go:

Treasury unveils measures to combat tax inversions - MarketWatch

That'll teach those corporations to follow their legal mandate to maximize shareholder value.

Good thing this administration is so business-friendly.



.

They are cheating the system. An equivalent event would be individual taxpayers maximizing their personal assets by manipulating code to defraud the IRS. This malignant capitialism thing has to be reined in. If the companies themselves cannot see fit to return to that body [The United States of America] that made them rich in the first place, then they have to be brought around by regulation. They are lying in the very bed they made via their insolence and arrogance.

That's utter nonsense.
Defrauding the iRS is a crime. No one, not the most leftist lefty out there, is claiming corporations are defrauding the IRS.
The regulations are self defeating. They will make US business less competitive and hurt the economy.

 

[Silhouette]

And away we go:

Treasury unveils measures to combat tax inversions - MarketWatch

That'll teach those corporations to follow their legal mandate to maximize shareholder value.

Good thing this administration is so business-friendly.



.

They are cheating the system. An equivalent event would be individual taxpayers maximizing their personal assets by manipulating code to defraud the IRS. This malignant capitialism thing has to be reined in. If the companies themselves cannot see fit to return to that body [The United States of America] that made them rich in the first place, then they have to be brought around by regulation. They are lying in the very bed they made via their insolence and arrogance.

That's utter nonsense.
Defrauding the iRS is a crime. No one, not the most leftist lefty out there, is claiming corporations are defrauding the IRS.
The regulations are self defeating. They will make US business less competitive and hurt the economy.

You are missing the point I made which was a good one. The complaint the OP made was that businesses should be supported in any directive they take in order to maximize profits. Even if it hurts the US economy and Treasury ultimately. I'm saying that if businesses are citizens, citizens then may use the same exact logic to maximize their own profits and portfolios.

Or aren't corporations citizens anymore? [Oh, that's right, they are supercitizens of convenience only but not responsibility or civic duty]

..lol..

Gotcha.

 

[MaxGrit]

And away we go:

Treasury unveils measures to combat tax inversions - MarketWatch

That'll teach those corporations to follow their legal mandate to maximize shareholder value.

Good thing this administration is so business-friendly.



.

They are cheating the system. An equivalent event would be individual taxpayers maximizing their personal assets by manipulating code to defraud the IRS. This malignant capitialism thing has to be reined in. If the companies themselves cannot see fit to return to that body [The United States of America] that made them rich in the first place, then they have to be brought around by regulation. They are lying in the very bed they made via their insolence and arrogance.

That's just cutting your nose to spite your face

 

[The Rabbi]

And away we go:

Treasury unveils measures to combat tax inversions - MarketWatch

That'll teach those corporations to follow their legal mandate to maximize shareholder value.

Good thing this administration is so business-friendly.



.

They are cheating the system. An equivalent event would be individual taxpayers maximizing their personal assets by manipulating code to defraud the IRS. This malignant capitialism thing has to be reined in. If the companies themselves cannot see fit to return to that body [The United States of America] that made them rich in the first place, then they have to be brought around by regulation. They are lying in the very bed they made via their insolence and arrogance.

That's utter nonsense.
Defrauding the iRS is a crime. No one, not the most leftist lefty out there, is claiming corporations are defrauding the IRS.
The regulations are self defeating. They will make US business less competitive and hurt the economy.

You are missing the point I made which was a good one. The complaint the OP made was that businesses should be supported in any directive they take in order to maximize profits. Even if it hurts the US economy and Treasury ultimately. I'm saying that if businesses are citizens, citizens then may use the same exact logic to maximize their own profits and portfolios.

Or aren't corporations citizens anymore? [Oh, that's right, they are supercitizens of convenience only but not responsibility or civic duty]

..lol..

Gotcha.

Your point sucks.
And you misinterpret the OP.
The OP states correctly that companies have a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. That is indisputable.
IN doing so normally they will help the US economy. But if taxation and regulation policies distort normal incentives and companies must act in ways to deprive the Treasury of revenue then it is the fault of the policies and laws, not the companies.
Corporations are not citizens. No one ever suggested that.

 

[Toro]

Hey Mac, how about using your software to tell us if this is true or not:

For example, after-tax corporate profits in the third quarter topped 11% of gross domestic product for the first time since the records started in 1947. At the same time, taxes paid by corporations has declined nearly 5% in the third quarter compared with a year earlier.

How to Measure Corporate America s Huge Profits - Real Time Economics - WSJ

That was from Dec of last year and things have not really changed only got better for corporations, but check your software. I used this because it has some good information on how corporate performance is measured.

Which corporations? It doesn't say. I brought up several questions you have declined to answer. There is simply not enough information here. What percentage of corporations are enjoying record profits? What percentage of corporations are losing money? And what happens to them if their taxes go up?

You're illustrating my point. You're trying to base an argument on simplistic, shallow data. If you think corporations should pay more taxes, I just want to know how that will affect domestic corporations on a macro basis, not an individual basis.

We're not going to agree on this, but knock yourself out. It's my profession, and I'd need a much better argument than this to change my mind. I'm talking to business owner clients and fund managers and fund reps and traders every day. People who are neck deep in it, 7/24/365, like I am.

.

The percentage of capital's profit to GDP is at record highs, and record lows for labor.

 

[The Rabbi]

Hey Mac, how about using your software to tell us if this is true or not:

For example, after-tax corporate profits in the third quarter topped 11% of gross domestic product for the first time since the records started in 1947. At the same time, taxes paid by corporations has declined nearly 5% in the third quarter compared with a year earlier.

How to Measure Corporate America s Huge Profits - Real Time Economics - WSJ

That was from Dec of last year and things have not really changed only got better for corporations, but check your software. I used this because it has some good information on how corporate performance is measured.

Which corporations? It doesn't say. I brought up several questions you have declined to answer. There is simply not enough information here. What percentage of corporations are enjoying record profits? What percentage of corporations are losing money? And what happens to them if their taxes go up?

You're illustrating my point. You're trying to base an argument on simplistic, shallow data. If you think corporations should pay more taxes, I just want to know how that will affect domestic corporations on a macro basis, not an individual basis.

We're not going to agree on this, but knock yourself out. It's my profession, and I'd need a much better argument than this to change my mind. I'm talking to business owner clients and fund managers and fund reps and traders every day. People who are neck deep in it, 7/24/365, like I am.

.

The percentage of capital's profit to GDP is at record highs, and record lows for labor.

So?

 

[Silhouette]

You are missing the point I made which was a good one. The complaint the OP made was that businesses should be supported in any directive they take in order to maximize profits. Even if it hurts the US economy and Treasury ultimately. I'm saying that if businesses are citizens, citizens then may use the same exact logic to maximize their own profits and portfolios.

Or aren't corporations citizens anymore? [Oh, that's right, they are supercitizens of convenience only but not responsibility or civic duty]

..lol..

Gotcha.

That's just cutting your nose to spite your face

We know that these corporations are stuffing a lot of wealth in offshore accounts. And if they are stripping the US of jobs and only selling us stuff, it is malignant capitalism. Or at least treason or a bastardization of the immigration and naturalization statutes. They are for all intents and purposes foreign corporations at that point and should be treated as such. If they locate labor offshore and store profits offshore, then they are offshore. And are no longer citizens. Then tariffs and such can apply.

Long story short, these corporations and their corporate lawyers want their cake and to eat it too. All at the expense of our country. You're either a ciziten here with all the rights AND responsibilities and civic duties to this country, or you aren't. No half-citizen super-status here folks.

 

[MaxGrit]

You are missing the point I made which was a good one. The complaint the OP made was that businesses should be supported in any directive they take in order to maximize profits. Even if it hurts the US economy and Treasury ultimately. I'm saying that if businesses are citizens, citizens then may use the same exact logic to maximize their own profits and portfolios.

Or aren't corporations citizens anymore? [Oh, that's right, they are supercitizens of convenience only but not responsibility or civic duty]

..lol..

Gotcha.

That's just cutting your nose to spite your face

We know that these corporations are stuffing a lot of wealth in offshore accounts. And if they are stripping the US of jobs and only selling us stuff, it is malignant capitalism. Or at least treason or a bastardization of the immigration and naturalization statutes. They are for all intents and purposes foreign corporations at that point and should be treated as such. If they locate labor offshore and store profits offshore, then they are offshore. And are no longer citizens. Then tariffs and such can apply.

Long story short, these corporations and their corporate lawyers want their cake and to eat it too. All at the expense of our country. You're either a ciziten here with all the rights AND responsibilities and civic duties to this country, or you aren't. No half-citizen super-status here folks.

You do realize that those corporations have no duty to bring back profits that are gained in foreign countries?

Tax something if you want less of it.

 

[Silhouette]

You do realize that those corporations have no duty to bring back profits that are gained in foreign countries?

Tax something if you want less of it.

What I do realize is that a US citizen has a duty and civic responsibility to contribute to and improve the country in which he lives and does business. And he may not conduct himself in a manner that degrades this country's cohesion and stability. That includes him taking steps to unravel the US economy via actions he knows or should have known would have this effect.

You're either a citizen, or you aren't. Which is it MaxGrit?