Numerous Times When Armed Civilians Have Stopped Bad Guys and Saved Lives

[Skull Pilot]

Defensive gun use - Wikipedia

Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]

so if you were right and there are " Dozens of murders" for every defensive gun use then at the very least there would be 2 dozen murders for each DGU so that would make the number of murders (low end estimate of the DGU stats used) 132000 annually

Therefore you are full of shit

Q.E.D.

Estimates of frequency

estimates!

surveys households

!!!! they ask people what they THINK--not facts

This methodology has some disadvantages for surveying domestic violence crimes, since the entire selected household (above age 12) is interviewed instead of just one member selected.[4]

approximately 49,000[1] to 77,400[2]

--they don't even know how many they SURVEY !!!???
National Crime Victimization Survey - Wikipedia
WOW--this looks very accurate
so they are saying there are 5 SD uses for every murder--low end!!!???!!
these are not documented
I don't see these in the news
sur·vey
verb

1. (of a person or their eyes) look carefully and thoroughly at (someone or something), especially so as to appraise them.
   "her green eyes surveyed him coolly"
   synonyms: look at, look over, observe, view, contemplate, regard, gaze at, stare at, eye; More
2. examine and record the area and features of (an area of land) so as to construct a map, plan, or description.

again these numbers are not KNOWN, factual, documented per FBI/police/DOJ/etc

SO what if they are estimates?

unless you can find exact numbers that's all we have

And you cannot find exact numbers on how many actual defensive gun uses there are.

I used the absolute low end of the estimate

And you are still forgetting that this is your claim not mine so I am under no obligation to prove any statistics here.

You used only homicides resulting from DGU and that is absolutely a misrepresentation you use.

A defensive use of a firearm can very well be the mere drawing of a weapon and the FBI does not track those and I doubt that any city state county or town tracks them so the best we can do is estimate

If you refuse to acknowledge that a DGU does not have to result in a justifiable homicide then you have just revealed yourself to be a disingenuous partisan

But we already knew that

 

[2aguy]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

again per the FBI
Self-Defense Gun Use

actual research conducted by bill clinton's Department of Justice, by two anti gun researchers put the number of defensive gun use at 1,500,000 every year...and the CDC under Obamacare looked at all the research in 2013 and found the number between 500,000 and 3,000,000.....the FBI counts bodies.....they don't count the thug running away, being captured or just being wounded...

 

[2aguy]

Defensive gun use - Wikipedia

Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]

so if you were right and there are " Dozens of murders" for every defensive gun use then at the very least there would be 2 dozen murders for each DGU so that would make the number of murders (low end estimate of the DGU stats used) 132000 annually

Therefore you are full of shit

Q.E.D.

Estimates of frequency

estimates!

surveys households

!!!! they ask people what they THINK--not facts

This methodology has some disadvantages for surveying domestic violence crimes, since the entire selected household (above age 12) is interviewed instead of just one member selected.[4]

approximately 49,000[1] to 77,400[2]

--they don't even know how many they SURVEY !!!???
National Crime Victimization Survey - Wikipedia
WOW--this looks very accurate
so they are saying there are 5 SD uses for every murder--low end!!!???!!
these are not documented
I don't see these in the news
sur·vey
verb

1. (of a person or their eyes) look carefully and thoroughly at (someone or something), especially so as to appraise them.
   "her green eyes surveyed him coolly"
   synonyms: look at, look over, observe, view, contemplate, regard, gaze at, stare at, eye; More
2. examine and record the area and features of (an area of land) so as to construct a map, plan, or description.

again these numbers are not KNOWN, factual, documented per FBI/police/DOJ/etc

The NCVS isn't the source for actual gun self defense...they ask 0 questions about gun self defense which is why in the dozen studies on actual gun self defense, their number is the lowest.....

 

[2aguy]

/——/ Did you know 96.8% of statistics are made up on the spot?

Yes, but Kellerman was researched. and when the NRA saw it, they lobbied to stop future research!

Kind of like if the tobacco companies cancelled research into smoking causing cancer.

No...two lies in one post.....kellerman was caught using fake methods...you know this and have been shown those facts over and over.....I have also posted links to CDC gun research that happened after the Dickey Amendment......so you lied twice.......and you keep lying.

 

[2aguy]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

Did you even look at the gun violence archive? They lie just like Everytown for gun safety...they have been caught at it and continue to do it......

 

[2aguy]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

Defensive gun use does not mean the law abiding victim shot and killed their attacker.....out of 1,500,000 DGU in this country each year, only about 230 some odd thugs are stupid enough to push the attack to the point they have to be shot...and in getting shot they die....

 

[2aguy]

....and yet you expect US to rely on the government to protect against gun violence for the reason you just stated.

Well, no, what I expect to protect me from gun violence is not letting crazy people buy guns to start with.

You know, like hte rest of the world does.

Since 1965 Libs have preached we don’t need guns, just call the police.

A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.

That is a lie...you have been shown that Keller an even recanted on that number and then still used the fake data to get the 2.7 number that he now claims......that you still use that number after being shown it was a lie exposes you as a troll.

 

[2aguy]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

So how about we stop talking about taking guns away from law-abiding citizens and focus on keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, hey?

More three times as many people are killed by cars each year than are killed all kinds of guns combined. And the number of people killed by knives is more than double the number of people killed by rifles and shotguns combined, according to FBI crime statistics.

FBI: Nearly Three Times More People Stabbed to Death Than Killed With Rifles, Shotguns Combined | Breitbart

the car and knife analogy is so ludicrous --stop with the IDIOTIC car analogy--I see this is the most popular argument for guns --it is ridiculous
1. murder vs accident !!!!!!
2. cars continuously redesigned for survival --guns to kill
3. cars used by MILLIONS every day all day and night...24/7--you cannot even calculate how much safer cars are
4. cars are registered/insured/etc--therefore much easier to control/etc

knives---you conveniently forgot that most murders are committed by guns
a gun can kill many much faster than a knife

you are RIGHT!! we want to keep guns away from criminals!! YES
1.it's too EASY for them to get guns
2. too easy to steal guns
3. harder to control guns when registration is not required
4. harder to control when laws are not national

mental illness is another popular pro-gun argument
you can NEVER change humans from being human--you know this
they have and always will kill/rape/rob
much, much easier to control guns than humans--this is undeniable

Wrong gun accidents to car accidents ...cars are deadlier than guns...and even when you dishonestly throw in gun murder, cars still kill more people every single year.

 

[2aguy]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

And here.....the actual research including bill clinton's Department of Justice study conducted to refute Dr. Kleck's study, and obama's CDC research into guns in 2013......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[2aguy]

And I should add that over half of all gun deaths in the U.S. are SUICIDES. Google it.

So what? 33,000 gun deaths a year because of your fetish.

Suicides are the highest total of gun deaths.....and Japan, China, and Korea have extreme gun control....only their criminals and cops can have guns.....and their suicide rates are higher than ours......and as actual research has shown, guns have no bearing on Suicide rates..

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide



There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world. According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.

Suicide is a mental health issue. If guns are not available other means are used. Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%).

Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article. The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited. Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows: Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).

Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)

Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent. Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.

 

[2aguy]

It's not true. That entire "study" was riddled with flaws

Suicide is not a crime, is not violence it is a choice and I would argue it's the pinnacle of all personal choice and it's none of your business if a person makes that choice

It wasn't a matter of "crime".

The point is, a gun someone brought into the house to protect the family KILLED a member of the family.

Suicides, Domestic Violence and Accidents, it happens 43 times more often than a bad guy getting killed.

You keep lying with that number....here is the truth about kellerman and his mythical 43 number...which he went on to change to 2.7....and even that is still wrong since he still used the same stupid methods that got him the first wrong number...

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t.
In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8
In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5
Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns. Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count. Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5
In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.
He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example,

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested,

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and

17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required.
Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.
In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.
Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.
All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5 It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.
Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6

 

[2aguy]

It's not true. That entire "study" was riddled with flaws

Suicide is not a crime, is not violence it is a choice and I would argue it's the pinnacle of all personal choice and it's none of your business if a person makes that choice

It wasn't a matter of "crime".

The point is, a gun someone brought into the house to protect the family KILLED a member of the family.

Suicides, Domestic Violence and Accidents, it happens 43 times more often than a bad guy getting killed.

And here....the actual study where kellerman changed his 43 number to 2.7........

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.

 

[2aguy]

Texas church shooting not the first time a good guy with gun takes down mass shooter

The gunman had an AR-15...the good guy had an AR-15: 26 people dead.

What if neither had guns?

How do you achieve that exactly? The French have outlawed all fully automatic military rifles.....you can't buy them in gun stores, since there aren't any, dittos gun shows.......and yet criminals prefer them...and terrorists on government terrrorist watch lists, many with felony convictions, got them easily and used them to murder 135 people.......and that was only in the last few years....

We are not talking semi auto civilian rifles like the AR-15.......the french criminals and terrorists get fully automatic military rifles....easily.....

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/10/02/gun-control-in-europe-is-almost-total-it-hasnt-stopped-mass-shooting-attacks-like-las-vegas.html

You heard that right: Countries such as France may have made all semi-automatic guns illegal, but that hasn’t stopped killers from getting fully automatic machine guns to use in mass shooting attacks. All four of the 2015 mass public shooting in France involved machine guns, including the 130 people killed in November of that year in multiple attacks including one at a concert venue.
=====

Hundreds of guns, grenades, ammo seized from French sports shop owner

Hundreds of assault rifles, shotguns, and pistols, along with hand grenades and 100 kilos of ammunition, have been confiscated from a sports shop owner in the northern French port town of Boulogne-sur-Mer.

In total, 488 guns, 13 grenades, 1,309 weapons parts, and more than 100 kilos of cartridges and ammunition were seized, customs officials said in a statement.

Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

But in recent years a black market has proliferated. The number of illegal weapons has risen at a rapid rate – double-digit percentages – for several years, according to the National Observatory for Delinquency, a body created in 2003.

“In Marseille and the surrounding area almost all the score settling is carried out using weapons used in wars,” a police spokesman told Reuters after the Toulouse attacks, adding that Kalashnikovs were the weapon of choice: “If you don’t have a ‘Kalash’ you’re a bit of a loser.”

============================
Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.



-------------=================
France’s real gun problem

Despite these strict laws, France seems to be awash with guns. The guns used in high-profile terror attacks are really just the tip of the iceberg. In 2012, French authorities estimated that there were around 30,000 guns illegally in the country, many likely used by gangs for criminal activities. Of those guns, around 4,000 were likely to be "war weapons," Le Figaro reported, referring to items such as the Kalashnikov AK-variant rifles and Uzis. Statistics from the National Observatory for Delinquency, a government body created in 2003, suggest that the number of guns in France has grown by double digits every year.
----------------------
How Europe's Terrorists Get Their Guns

France became particularly worried about the trafficking of illegal guns in 2012, increasing fines and jail terms for those involved in the trafficking and possession of them. Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said in Septemberthat police have seized nearly 6,000 weapons from criminal groups each year since 2013, 1,200 of which were military assault weapons. And in the three weeks following the Nov. 13 attacks, Cazeneuve said French police seized 334 weapons, 34 of them military-grade.

Several officials and experts tell TIME they’ve seen a noticeable climb in both the numbers and the types of illicit weapons crossing borders over the past few years. Rather than pistols and small guns, there has been a spike in demand for military-grade assault weapons. This reflects a very different kind of criminality: petty criminals and drug dealers tend to want small pistols that they can conceal; terrorists want AK-47s that can do maximum damage.

“For something like the Paris attacks, you don’t need hundreds of thousands of weapons. You just need enough to create havoc,” says Zverzhanovski. “The gun market operates on a very basic supply and demand system. Since about 2011, there has definitely been a significant increase of illicit weapons going from southeast Europe towards different parts of the E.U.” Crucially, it’s not truckloads or planeloads of weapons coming in. It’s much more a case of “micro-trafficking”—a few pieces being brought in by individuals—making it much more difficult to track.

 

[harmonica]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

And here.....the actual research including bill clinton's Department of Justice study conducted to refute Dr. Kleck's study, and obama's CDC research into guns in 2013......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

surveys
--and is it/are you saying there were 3.5 million SD uses in 1976??!!
..you are saying for every murder in 1976--18,000--there were over 200 SD uses???!!!!???
..for every ONE murder, there was 200 SD uses??? !!!???? impossible
...that would mean crime in non-crime areas was under reported by many times, [ but we know that is not factual ] or there were even more than 200 per murder SD uses in crime areas ???!!!??

--is that what you are saying? for every murder there were 2 HUNDRED SD uses????!!!
California Crime Rates 1960-2016
you believe this 2AGuy???
conveniently these SD uses are not reported

and remember not all of those murders were by gun--so your are saying the gun SD use is even higher than 200 per vs gun murders

for every 1 murder, there are 2 HUNDRED SD uses???!!!! impossible//ludicrous!! and not documented!!

with 2 million a year it's over a hundred per murder
.

 

[harmonica]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

And here.....the actual research including bill clinton's Department of Justice study conducted to refute Dr. Kleck's study, and obama's CDC research into guns in 2013......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

these gun uses are NOT documented --that means we don't know if they happened

 

[2aguy]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

And here.....the actual research including bill clinton's Department of Justice study conducted to refute Dr. Kleck's study, and obama's CDC research into guns in 2013......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

surveys
--and is it/are you saying there were 3.5 million SD uses in 1976??!!
..you are saying for every murder in 1976--18,000--there were over 200 SD uses???!!!!???
..for every ONE murder, there was 200 SD uses??? !!!???? impossible
...that would mean crime in non-crime areas was under reported by many times, [ but we know that is not factual ] or there were even more than 200 per murder SD uses in crime areas ???!!!??

--is that what you are saying? for every murder there were 2 HUNDRED SD uses????!!!
California Crime Rates 1960-2016
you believe this 2AGuy???
conveniently these SD uses are not reported

and remember not all of those murders were by gun--so your are saying the gun SD use is even higher than 200 per vs gun murders

for every 1 murder, there are 2 HUNDRED SD uses???!!!! impossible//ludicrous!! and not documented!!

with 2 million a year it's over a hundred per murder
.

I gave you 41 years of actual research conducted by both private and government research groups, many of them rabidly anti gun.......some orderd by anti gun, democrat Presidents.........those are the results....you can deny them but they are the research........

The majority of Self defense gun uses do not end in the criminal being shot...they run away, surrender...or they get injured but not killed........

Deny the research.....but 41 years of actual study on the topic shows you don't know what you are talking about...

 

[2aguy]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

And here.....the actual research including bill clinton's Department of Justice study conducted to refute Dr. Kleck's study, and obama's CDC research into guns in 2013......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

these gun uses are NOT documented --that means we don't know if they happened

Again....they used actual research methods......just like the NCVS...which you pushed as being legitimate...even though the NCVS does not ask any question about guns...they don't even have the word "Gun" in their questions.......

The 41 years of research...those studies actually asked if the individuals had used a gun......actually asked the question....

Here...from left wing, anti gun, rabidly anti gun, the Daily Kos on whey the source you cite is not credible...

The Daily Kos on why the NCVS is wrong...
Defensive Gun Use Part III - The National Crime Victimization Study

The disadvantages of this study design are:
1) the study is not specifically designed to measure DGUs;

2) the study does not track every type of crime;

3) the study does not ask every interviewee about episodes of DGU;

4) interviewees are not specifically asked about defending themselves with a gun;

5) follow-up studies have demonstrated that the incidence of assault (and especially assaults by relatives and non-strangers) in the NCVS is under-reported, and if crime is under-reported then so too will DGUs be under-reported;

6) respondents’ anonymity is not preserved, and some interviewees may therefore feel wary or unwilling to discuss gun use with federal government employees.

 

[harmonica]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders--then dozens more shootings, then dozens more robberies with guns
...

Do you care to prove that

You posted this shit once before and I asked you for proof then as well but you didn't give a link and I don't think you will this time either because you can't prove that bullshit statement

hahahaahha
--I distinctly remember posting evidence and links to your responses because I remember MikeT saying the ''Brady site'' was a bunch of lies''
..I remember your SHIT--you provided NOTHING--no evidence-NOTHING
hahahahahah
here are some of the same sources I used LAST time--hahahahahahah
FBI stats last

now--this is just common sense and common knowledge....
Gun Violence Archive
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

• Firearms were used in 71.5 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.8 percent of robberies, and 24.2 percent of aggravated assaults.

Latest Crime Statistics Released — FBI

FBI justifiable homicide stats:
police:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 5
civilian:
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6
total crime stats:
Table 21

And here.....the actual research including bill clinton's Department of Justice study conducted to refute Dr. Kleck's study, and obama's CDC research into guns in 2013......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

these gun uses are NOT documented --that means we don't know if they happened

Again....they used actual research methods......just like the NCVS...which you pushed as being legitimate...even though the NCVS does not ask any question about guns...they don't even have the word "Gun" in their questions.......

The 41 years of research...those studies actually asked if the individuals had used a gun......actually asked the question....

Here...from left wing, anti gun, rabidly anti gun, the Daily Kos on whey the source you cite is not credible...

The Daily Kos on why the NCVS is wrong...
Defensive Gun Use Part III - The National Crime Victimization Study

The disadvantages of this study design are:
1) the study is not specifically designed to measure DGUs;

2) the study does not track every type of crime;

3) the study does not ask every interviewee about episodes of DGU;

4) interviewees are not specifically asked about defending themselves with a gun;

5) follow-up studies have demonstrated that the incidence of assault (and especially assaults by relatives and non-strangers) in the NCVS is under-reported, and if crime is under-reported then so too will DGUs be under-reported;

6) respondents’ anonymity is not preserved, and some interviewees may therefore feel wary or unwilling to discuss gun use with federal government employees.

where did I say the NCVS as legitimate ? look at post # 180

 

[Clementine]