Numbers Game?

Does it make sense to you to pursue, as a society, policies that benefit the greatest numbers of people?

It depends on how you measure the greatest good for the greatest number. For example, tax breaks for the rich means that there will be more private investment capital available which will foster economic growth and more jobs, so by benefiting the rich, everyone benefits. On the other hand, increased social welfare benefits mean more public debt or more taxes and less private capital available for investment, meaning slower economic growth and fewer jobs. So in these examples, policies that seem to only benefit a few in fact benefit everyone, and policies aimed at benefiting everyone actually hurt everyone.

Do you seriously still believe that? If tax breaks for the wealthy drove job growth, Bush II would have been able to afford his wars.

Think about it - Which factory needs more workers?

The one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million people with an income distribution graph showing a nice bell curve and a robust middle class, or the one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million starving peasants and one king?
 
Does it make sense to you to pursue, as a society, policies that benefit the greatest numbers of people?

It depends on how you measure the greatest good for the greatest number. For example, tax breaks for the rich means that there will be more private investment capital available which will foster economic growth and more jobs, so by benefiting the rich, everyone benefits. On the other hand, increased social welfare benefits mean more public debt or more taxes and less private capital available for investment, meaning slower economic growth and fewer jobs. So in these examples, policies that seem to only benefit a few in fact benefit everyone, and policies aimed at benefiting everyone actually hurt everyone.

Do you seriously still believe that? If tax breaks for the wealthy drove job growth, Bush II would have been able to afford his wars.

Think about it - Which factory needs more workers?

The one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million people with an income distribution graph showing a nice bell curve and a robust middle class, or the one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million starving peasants and one king?

Doesn't this debate illustrate exactly why government should stay out of the business of deciding who benefits?

Government should maintain laws that protect our rights, and leave us free as a society to determine who benefits.
 
It depends on how you measure the greatest good for the greatest number. For example, tax breaks for the rich means that there will be more private investment capital available which will foster economic growth and more jobs, so by benefiting the rich, everyone benefits. On the other hand, increased social welfare benefits mean more public debt or more taxes and less private capital available for investment, meaning slower economic growth and fewer jobs. So in these examples, policies that seem to only benefit a few in fact benefit everyone, and policies aimed at benefiting everyone actually hurt everyone.

Do you seriously still believe that? If tax breaks for the wealthy drove job growth, Bush II would have been able to afford his wars.

Think about it - Which factory needs more workers?

The one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million people with an income distribution graph showing a nice bell curve and a robust middle class, or the one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million starving peasants and one king?

Doesn't this debate illustrate exactly why government should stay out of the business of deciding who benefits?

Totally.

Taxes that are fair because they're simple, public budgets that are balanced by law, transparency in all things politics and then build an economy that your children can drive to the stars.

:smoke: It ain't rocket science, y'all.
 
Does it make sense to you to pursue, as a society, policies that benefit the greatest numbers of people?
It depends on the policy. The abolition of slavery, prison reform, and protection of the civil rights of people with disabilities, are good examples of policies that do not benefit the greatest number of people, but certainly make sense. A society that strives to serve only the majority, would be a pretty poor place to live.
 
Noteworthy at this moment is that by 'society' I meant any organized human activity tasked with pursuing 'public policies' that you, the writer answering the question, care to judge.

Your nation and your society are synonymous in the context of the question.

Well, in that context, sure we should seek to benefit the most people. But government policy - because it is inevitably coercive - is another matter.

Public policy pursuit is the roll of government. It's what it does.

Since We, The People are the government here, shouldn't We be holding our representatives in government to a better standard of statistically producing a nice bell curve with a robust middle class in the distribution of wealth chart?

The only alternative is to admit that it's better for the government to choose favorites in both society and the economy, and control of the government should be pursued at all costs (like a $2 billion pres election) because the loosing alternative is not being among the favored.

Fair taxes, balanced budgets... oh hell, y'all know the drill. The stars await you.

:smoke:
 
Does it make sense to you to pursue, as a society, policies that benefit the greatest numbers of people?
It depends on the policy. The abolition of slavery, prison reform, and protection of the civil rights of people with disabilities, are good examples of policies that do not benefit the greatest number of people, but certainly make sense. A society that strives to serve only the majority, would be a pretty poor place to live.

I'm not following... All of the things you mentioned are public policies that pursue an overall goal of benefiting the greatest sheer numbers of people statistically.

The point is not policies weaving a tapestry that benefits 51% of the voters, the point is policies creating an environment that benefits 90% of the population, including the future population.
 
Does it make sense to you to pursue, as a society, policies that benefit the greatest numbers of people?

It depends on how you measure the greatest good for the greatest number. For example, tax breaks for the rich means that there will be more private investment capital available which will foster economic growth and more jobs, so by benefiting the rich, everyone benefits. On the other hand, increased social welfare benefits mean more public debt or more taxes and less private capital available for investment, meaning slower economic growth and fewer jobs. So in these examples, policies that seem to only benefit a few in fact benefit everyone, and policies aimed at benefiting everyone actually hurt everyone.

Do you seriously still believe that? If tax breaks for the wealthy drove job growth, Bush II would have been able to afford his wars.

Think about it - Which factory needs more workers?

The one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million people with an income distribution graph showing a nice bell curve and a robust middle class, or the one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million starving peasants and one king?

In fact, the tech boom of the 1990's was almost entirely financed by rich investors. If this private capital had been taxed away to pay for social welfare benefits, there would have been no tech boom in the 1990's. The reason why the financial crisis led to high unemployment is that when so much of the nation's investment capital was tied up in bad debts, many credit worthy businesses couldn't get the capital they needed to keep employees working or hire new ones. Money that is taxed away by the government can't be invested in the private sector economy and can't create jobs.

We don't have kings and starving peasants in this country. We have people looking for jobs and investors looking for investments that will earn them profits while creating jobs for others. Tax too much of that investment capital away and you are screwing the workers.
 
It depends on how you measure the greatest good for the greatest number. For example, tax breaks for the rich means that there will be more private investment capital available which will foster economic growth and more jobs, so by benefiting the rich, everyone benefits. On the other hand, increased social welfare benefits mean more public debt or more taxes and less private capital available for investment, meaning slower economic growth and fewer jobs. So in these examples, policies that seem to only benefit a few in fact benefit everyone, and policies aimed at benefiting everyone actually hurt everyone.

Do you seriously still believe that? If tax breaks for the wealthy drove job growth, Bush II would have been able to afford his wars.

Think about it - Which factory needs more workers?

The one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million people with an income distribution graph showing a nice bell curve and a robust middle class, or the one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million starving peasants and one king?

In fact, the tech boom of the 1990's was almost entirely financed by rich investors. If this private capital had been taxed away to pay for social welfare benefits, there would have been no tech boom in the 1990's. The reason why the financial crisis led to high unemployment is that when so much of the nation's investment capital was tied up in bad debts, many credit worthy businesses couldn't get the capital they needed to keep employees working or hire new ones. Money that is taxed away by the government can't be invested in the private sector economy and can't create jobs.

We don't have kings and starving peasants in this country. We have people looking for jobs and investors looking for investments that will earn them profits while creating jobs for others. Tax too much of that investment capital away and you are screwing the workers.


Like I said Brother, fair and simple taxes, public budgets balanced by law and transparency in all things politics.

And the use of a distribution of wealth graph is not a comment on a particular or general economic policy, it's simply a gauge to see how 'government' is doing in its endeavor to serve the statistical greatest number of people.
 
Do you seriously still believe that? If tax breaks for the wealthy drove job growth, Bush II would have been able to afford his wars.

Think about it - Which factory needs more workers?

The one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million people with an income distribution graph showing a nice bell curve and a robust middle class, or the one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million starving peasants and one king?

In fact, the tech boom of the 1990's was almost entirely financed by rich investors. If this private capital had been taxed away to pay for social welfare benefits, there would have been no tech boom in the 1990's. The reason why the financial crisis led to high unemployment is that when so much of the nation's investment capital was tied up in bad debts, many credit worthy businesses couldn't get the capital they needed to keep employees working or hire new ones. Money that is taxed away by the government can't be invested in the private sector economy and can't create jobs.

We don't have kings and starving peasants in this country. We have people looking for jobs and investors looking for investments that will earn them profits while creating jobs for others. Tax too much of that investment capital away and you are screwing the workers.


Like I said Brother, fair and simple taxes, public budgets balanced by law and transparency in all things politics.

And the use of a distribution of wealth graph is not a comment on a particular or general economic policy, it's simply a gauge to see how 'government' is doing in its endeavor to serve the statistical greatest number of people.

And that's the basic difference between the left and right. Those on the left believe that government should directly serve the people's various needs and those on the right believe the government best serves the needs of the people by facilitating the efforts of the people to provide for themselves and those close to them.
 
In fact, the tech boom of the 1990's was almost entirely financed by rich investors. If this private capital had been taxed away to pay for social welfare benefits, there would have been no tech boom in the 1990's. The reason why the financial crisis led to high unemployment is that when so much of the nation's investment capital was tied up in bad debts, many credit worthy businesses couldn't get the capital they needed to keep employees working or hire new ones. Money that is taxed away by the government can't be invested in the private sector economy and can't create jobs.

We don't have kings and starving peasants in this country. We have people looking for jobs and investors looking for investments that will earn them profits while creating jobs for others. Tax too much of that investment capital away and you are screwing the workers.


Like I said Brother, fair and simple taxes, public budgets balanced by law and transparency in all things politics.

And the use of a distribution of wealth graph is not a comment on a particular or general economic policy, it's simply a gauge to see how 'government' is doing in its endeavor to serve the statistical greatest number of people.

And that's the basic difference between the left and right. Those on the left believe that government should directly serve the people's various needs and those on the right believe the government best serves the needs of the people by facilitating the efforts of the people to provide for themselves and those close to them.

I made ABSOLUTELY no claims about policy on either side of the aisle. My thesis is that public policies should be pursued that benefit the statistical greatest number of people in an economy and the distribution of wealth chart is a reliable gauge to measure the results for comparison.


While I have made statements of policy in the thread, they were posted in a separate context and they are my own. I see few successful politicians on either side of the aisle advocating for fair and simple taxes, public budgets that are balanced by law and/or transparency in all things politics.
 
The happiest place on earth is socialist....

For the past decade, social scientists and pollsters have given elaborate questionnaires to hundreds of thousands of people around the globe. Two of the largest studies that rank the happiness of countries around the world are the World Map of Happiness from the University of Leiscester and the World Database of Happiness from Ruut Veenhoven of Erasmus University Rotterdam. All the happiness surveys ask people basically the same question: How happy are you?


"The answer you get is not only how they feel right now, but also how they feel about their entire life," explained Dan Buettner, who has studied happiness and longevity around the world through his Blue Zones project Buettner said that if you mine all the databases of universities and research centers, you'll find that the happiest place on earth is ? Denmark. Cold, dreary, unspectacular Denmark.

Could the Danes really be the happiest people in the world? When ABC News anchor Bill Weir traveled there to find out, he asked random Danes to rate themselves in terms of happiness, on a scale of one to 10. Many people rated themselves at least an eight, and there were several nines and 10s. Finally, one grouchy Dane came along who said she didn't believe Danes were so happy. But then she quickly conceded that she herself felt rather content with her life, and said Danes in general had very little to complain about.
Danes do have one potential complaint: high taxes. The happiest people in the world pay some of the highest taxes in the world -- between 50 percent and 70 percent of their incomes. In exchange, the government covers all health care and education, and spends more on children and the elderly than any country in the world per capita. With just 5.5 million people, the system is efficient, and people feel "tryghed" -- the Danish word for "tucked in" -- like a snug child.
Those high taxes have another effect. Since a banker can end up taking home as much money as an artist, people don't chose careers based on income or status. "They have this thing called 'Jante-lov,' which essentially says, 'You're no better then anybody else,'" said Buettner. "A garbage man can live in a middle-class neighborhood and hold his head high."

Denmark: The Happiest Place on Earth - ABC News

Delta is ready when you are.
 
Do you seriously still believe that? If tax breaks for the wealthy drove job growth, Bush II would have been able to afford his wars.

Think about it - Which factory needs more workers?

The one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million people with an income distribution graph showing a nice bell curve and a robust middle class, or the one selling refrigerators to a market of 6 million starving peasants and one king?

Doesn't this debate illustrate exactly why government should stay out of the business of deciding who benefits?

Totally.

Taxes that are fair because they're simple, public budgets that are balanced by law, transparency in all things politics and then build an economy that your children can drive to the stars.

:smoke: It ain't rocket science, y'all.

Gov't doesnt need to build an economy. Gov't cannot build a toilet seat efficiently.
Set a fair set of ground rules and let things go.
 
In general? That depends. As a practice? No way.

It would guarantee oppression of minority groups.

And, our Founding Fathers were brilliant in foreseeing that.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

The "founding fathers" owned slaves.
And, your point?

The point being is that they should not be the be- all and end-all.

You wouldn't practice 18th century medicine or law or sanitation.

But you think that following the cutting edge governmental system of 1787 is just fine.

These guys thought one human being owning another was perfectly acceptable and that if the father of your country got strep throat from riding in the rain, it was really a good idea to open his veins and let him bleed out.

The constitution is great in many ways, but it has horrible flaws. The electoral college is a truly stupid way of selecting a president that disenfranchises most of the country. (This upcoming election will be decided in all of 10 states). The Senate allows backwater states to tie up legislation. And lifetime appointments for justices might have seemed like a good idea when people only lived to 60, but when you have senile justices hanging onto their jobs into their 90's, not so much.
 
Doesn't this debate illustrate exactly why government should stay out of the business of deciding who benefits?

Totally.

Taxes that are fair because they're simple, public budgets that are balanced by law, transparency in all things politics and then build an economy that your children can drive to the stars.

:smoke: It ain't rocket science, y'all.

Gov't doesnt need to build an economy. Gov't cannot build a toilet seat efficiently.
Set a fair set of ground rules and let things go.

Who the fuck said anything about GOVERNMENT building anything?

I'm saying that if We, The People can effectively LIMIT our governments reach in to our pockets to collecting taxes fairly and simply, and LIMIT the size of our governments and their scope by requiring balanced public budgets, and LIMIT the politics of governing by requiring an open and transparent government, the inevitable result will be an economy built by The People using all of the tools in our economic tool shed, including government, that future generations can use to make the dreams of mankind come true.






Please get off this high-horse of this being some sort of game of L -vs- R with a 'winner take all' mentality.

Where in the founding documents is there a requirement, or even an admonishment, for a political ideology to some day be declared as conquering our politics? :dunno:

I thought the whole pluralistic idea was to look at ALL the ideas from ALL the ideologies and elect reasonable men pick, choose and compromise among those ideas, with equal concern for both present and future Americans. What the fuck happened? :dunno:
 
Does it make sense to you to pursue, as a society, policies that benefit the greatest numbers of people?
In general? That depends. As a practice? No way.

It would guarantee oppression of minority groups.

And, our Founding Fathers were brilliant in foreseeing that.

How exactly would making policies that benefit most people would oppress minorities? Are they not people? Why did you assume that what is good for most is not good for minorities?
Let's look at the question of gay marriage, for example. One would think of all places where a majority would support such a thing would be California.

California has a referendum vote, and gay marriage is voted down. Gays are a minority, the majority votes that they don't get equal rights. That's tyranny of the majority.
 
The happiest people in the world pay some of the highest taxes in the world -- between 50 percent and 70 percent of their incomes. In exchange, the government covers all health care and education, and spends more on children and the elderly than any country in the world per capita. With just 5.5 million people, the system is efficient, and people feel "tryghed" -- the Danish word for "tucked in" -- like a snug child.

Denmark: The Happiest Place on Earth - ABC News


This is a reasonable and compelling argument, and as someone who struggles with the proper size, scope and cost of our government, I have to wonder if our "pursuit of happiness" isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm not saying it isn't, but I think it's a valid question. That pursuit has led to a society so medicated by depression medication, drugs, caffeine and other artificial crutches that a sane person can wonder. After all, if "happiness" is what we're after, and there is indeed a formula, why are we ignoring it?

I don't know.

But here's my issue - I'm not sure that we can get there from here. I'd like to know if the Danish government is as corrupt as ours. Our "leaders" are paid off thugs in many cases, open to the highest bidder. I'm therefore neither comfortable with nor confident in their ability to move us in a direction that would get us closer to where the Danes are.

.
 
For example, tax breaks for the rich means that there will be more private investment capital available which will foster economic growth and more jobs, so by benefiting the rich, everyone benefits.

Where has that worked? The Bush tax cuts have been in place for over a decade and we saw some of the worst job losses in our country's history as a result. What were the tax policies in this country when it had it's most thriving middle class?

How do you explain the increasing amount of wealth being concentrated at the top of the income ladder?

The following depicts the result of the tax policy your are touting the benefits of:

inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png


Trickle down has not worked. Why can't ya'll admit it?
 
The happiest people in the world pay some of the highest taxes in the world -- between 50 percent and 70 percent of their incomes. In exchange, the government covers all health care and education, and spends more on children and the elderly than any country in the world per capita. With just 5.5 million people, the system is efficient, and people feel "tryghed" -- the Danish word for "tucked in" -- like a snug child.

Denmark: The Happiest Place on Earth - ABC News


This is a reasonable and compelling argument, and as someone who struggles with the proper size, scope and cost of our government, I have to wonder if our "pursuit of happiness" isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm not saying it isn't, but I think it's a valid question. That pursuit has led to a society so medicated by depression medication, drugs, caffeine and other artificial crutches that a sane person can wonder. After all, if "happiness" is what we're after, and there is indeed a formula, why are we ignoring it?

I don't know.

But here's my issue - I'm not sure that we can get there from here. I'd like to know if the Danish government is as corrupt as ours. Our "leaders" are paid off thugs in many cases, open to the highest bidder. I'm therefore neither comfortable with nor confident in their ability to move us in a direction that would get us closer to where the Danes are.

.

No, the Danish government isn't as corrupt as ours. New Zealand, Denmark, Finland and Sweden (in that order) are all at the top of the The Corruption Perceptions Index (as being the least corrupt)

and an explanation why they are...

What makes New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Sweden and others “cleaner” than most countries?

  • disclosure of budget information closes the door to waste and misappropriation of public funds. Therefore, countries should seek to promote information disclosure as well as enhance citizens’ participation throughout the budget process. The Open Budget Index shows that Sweden allows citizens to assess how their government is managing public funds.
  • Codes of conduct for public servants. Denmark obliges Ministers to monthly publish information on their spending travel and gifts
  • Legal framework criminalising a wide range of corruption related abuses and an independent and efficient judiciary.

The United States is 24th by the way...
 
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For example, tax breaks for the rich means that there will be more private investment capital available which will foster economic growth and more jobs, so by benefiting the rich, everyone benefits.

Where has that worked? The Bush tax cuts have been in place for over a decade and we saw some of the worst job losses in our country's history as a result. What were the tax policies in this country when it had it's most thriving middle class?
Where did it work? How about after the 2001 Clinton recession,when the economy was back on track in 18 months? Compare that to the Obama stimulus where we still haven't seen much growth. Under Bush the UE rate was about5% on average. Under Obama it's been over 8 1/2 every day of his term.
 

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