No new taxes on the middle class?

[jreeves]

Presidential Hopefuls to Vote on Budget - TIME
Obama, D-Ill., and Clinton, D-N.Y., both promise to reverse Bush's tax cuts for wealthier taxpayers, but the Democratic budget they'll be voting for would allow income tax rates to go up on individuals making as little as $31,850 and couples earning $63,700 or more.

Across the Capitol, the House was to vote on a companion Democratic measure predicting larger surpluses while allowing $683 billion worth of tax increases over five years with the expiration of Bush's tax cuts.
A Republican alternative that largely mirrored a plan by presumptive GOP nominee McCain of Arizona to permanently extend Bush's tax cuts and eliminate the alternative minimum tax was expected to fail badly, with party moderates distancing themselves from the GOP plan's huge cuts in popular programs like Medicare, housing, community development, and the Medicaid health care program for the poor and disabled. Such cuts were needed to make room for big tax cuts and still project a balanced budget.


Obama is full of BS, I will raise taxes on the wealthy, while he will vote for a tax increase on people making 31,850 or more. I guess he just redefined the wealthy....

 

[Charles_Main]

What I find more troubling is how we define poor. The poor in the nation, for the most part would be rich in many other nations.

 

[CharlestonChad]

What I find more troubling is how we define poor. The poor in the nation, for the most part would be rich in many other nations.

You find our high standard of living "troubling"?

 

[Ravi]

What I find more troubling is how we define poor. The poor in the nation, for the most part would be rich in many other nations.

Not really. They'd make far less in other nations so the cost of living being lower wouldn't matter at all.

 

[Charles_Main]

You find our high standard of living "troubling"?

Not at all, I find it troubling people who have so much are considered poor. Troubling and frankly demeaning to all those who are actually poor in the world.

 

[editec]

Not at all, I find it troubling people who have so much are considered poor. Troubling and frankly demeaning to all those who are actually poor in the world.

Oh please.

The poor of America are devaluing the meaning of the word poor?

Yeah, right.

How thoughtless of them.

 

[Your Overlord]

the problem is that if you are the least bit succesfull
the democrats will deem you "the Greedy Rich"
they will allways call on people to make sacrifices
as if it is their place to tell us what to do with our money
of course
the submited idea is that those making over 200,000 will get pushed
into the 60% bracket
while at the same time Obama and his minions talk about programs out of the gate that will impact those down to 60,000
and they are just getting started
wait until this gem of socialism called "universal Healthcare" gets enected
it won't take long to dig into the lower middle class more and more
the point is
it will never be enough for the elitists and the beurocrats
until the whole shithouse goes up in flames
then maybe we can get back to the constitution

 

[Voltaire]

Hah, Overlord, so you're a bit of a doomer huh?

Yes, the idea of an income tax is essentially slavery, as Robert Nozick really eloquently put it. Combine that with the redistribution of wealth involved in a graduated tax, and socialism is exactly what you've got...

I think a much better system in the mean time would be a national consumption tax...we are nothing if not a rampant consumer culture after all, and it doesn't seem like nearly as direct of an affront as practically taking 30 hours out of somebody's biweekly paycheck.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Hah, Overlord, so you're a bit of a doomer huh?

Yes, the idea of an income tax is essentially slavery, as Robert Nozick really eloquently put it. Combine that with the redistribution of wealth involved in a graduated tax, and socialism is exactly what you've got...

I think a much better system in the mean time would be a national consumption tax...we are nothing if not a rampant consumer culture after all, and it doesn't seem like nearly as direct of an affront as practically taking 30 hours out of somebody's biweekly paycheck.

Consumption Taxes will hit the poor the worst. They have the least money and will be forced to pay taxes they currently do NOT pay. There is no easy way to create an exemption for people with less than x amount of money to be hit by this consumption tax.

The fair method would be a flat tax with no loop holes. Exempt people under x amount of income and everyone else pays the Income tax on ALL forms of Income and methods that increase money, unless already taxed.

You must not be aware that under the current tax scheme low income people actually get money BACK from the Government, money they never paid in. Except for Social Security and Medicare these people have a negative tax.

 

[Voltaire]

Consumption Taxes will hit the poor the worst. They have the least money and will be forced to pay taxes they currently do NOT pay. There is no easy way to create an exemption for people with less than x amount of money to be hit by this consumption tax.

The fair method would be a flat tax with no loop holes. Exempt people under x amount of income and everyone else pays the Income tax on ALL forms of Income and methods that increase money, unless already taxed.

You must not be aware that under the current tax scheme low income people actually get money BACK from the Government, money they never paid in. Except for Social Security and Medicare these people have a negative tax.

Yes, I understand that the poor will be hit the worst, but I think our disagreement is primarily philosophical. The fact that people in the lowest income bracket are actually getting money back when they are not paying in is one of the primary reasons I support the idea of a consumption tax.

It seems wrong to me that any person should receive the benefits of citizenship if they're not paying taxes at all; that goes for the exempt group in your flat tax plan as well.

Maybe I sound like a heartless bastard, but I'm probably going to be working 2 or more jobs soon just so that I'll be able to pay student loans and still be able to afford my rent, so it's not like I'm rolling in money myself.

If I'm mistaken about your position or I'm just missing something, I apologize.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Not at all, I find it troubling people who have so much are considered poor. Troubling and frankly demeaning to all those who are actually poor in the world.

So then YES, you find it troubling that our standard of living is high enough to call our poor "poor".

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yes, I understand that the poor will be hit the worst, but I think our disagreement is primarily philosophical. The fact that people in the lowest income bracket are actually getting money back when they are not paying in is one of the primary reasons I support the idea of a consumption tax.

It seems wrong to me that any person should receive the benefits of citizenship if they're not paying taxes at all; that goes for the exempt group in your flat tax plan as well.

Maybe I sound like a heartless bastard, but I'm probably going to be working 2 or more jobs soon just so that I'll be able to pay student loans and still be able to afford my rent, so it's not like I'm rolling in money myself.

If I'm mistaken about your position or I'm just missing something, I apologize.

I have NO problem setting a low end limit below which one does not pay taxes to the Federal Government. With in their States they will be paying ( most states anyway) taxes of one sort or another.

But to the point. Consumption tax falls unfairly on the those with the least means to pay it. It would further erode the ability of States to collect THEIR sales taxes.

 

[midcan5]

Try being poor and then tell us your BS.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/nyregion/14poverty.html?ref=nyregion

 

[Voltaire]

Without getting into too much detail, many years ago, I found myself in a situation where I was homeless, with my mom and sister. We lived out of our car and hotels, when we could afford them. I'm not saying this because I want sympathy, but because I'm trying to illustrate that it is possible to go through rough times and still believe it's a citizen's duty to pay taxes. I also believe that if the federal government were properly trimmed down, the impact of the tax would be significantly ameliorated.

Now, I can somewhat agree with RetiredGySgt's line of reasoning, since I'm a sucker for state's rights and I do see the persuasiveness of making sure money continues to be collected most efficiently at the state level.

 

[sealybobo]

Presidential Hopefuls to Vote on Budget - TIME
Obama, D-Ill., and Clinton, D-N.Y., both promise to reverse Bush's tax cuts for wealthier taxpayers, but the Democratic budget they'll be voting for would allow income tax rates to go up on individuals making as little as $31,850 and couples earning $63,700 or more.

Across the Capitol, the House was to vote on a companion Democratic measure predicting larger surpluses while allowing $683 billion worth of tax increases over five years with the expiration of Bush's tax cuts.
A Republican alternative that largely mirrored a plan by presumptive GOP nominee McCain of Arizona to permanently extend Bush's tax cuts and eliminate the alternative minimum tax was expected to fail badly, with party moderates distancing themselves from the GOP plan's huge cuts in popular programs like Medicare, housing, community development, and the Medicaid health care program for the poor and disabled. Such cuts were needed to make room for big tax cuts and still project a balanced budget.


Obama is full of BS, I will raise taxes on the wealthy, while he will vote for a tax increase on people making 31,850 or more. I guess he just redefined the wealthy....

I don't believe it. I heard ppl in this tax bracket will get a break and do worse under McCain.

Conservative mag. lol.

And if this gets the country back on track, so what?
my home and stocks worth more, pay down the debt, get consumer confidence right.

In other words, rol back the bush tax cuts.

 

[editec]

the problem is that if you are the least bit succesfull
the democrats will deem you "the Greedy Rich"
they will allways call on people to make sacrifices
as if it is their place to tell us what to do with our money
of course
the submited idea is that those making over 200,000 will get pushed
into the 60% bracket
while at the same time Obama and his minions talk about programs out of the gate that will impact those down to 60,000
and they are just getting started
wait until this gem of socialism called "universal Healthcare" gets enected
it won't take long to dig into the lower middle class more and more
the point is
it will never be enough for the elitists and the beurocrats
until the whole shithouse goes up in flames
then maybe we can get back to the constitution

Partisan Blather.

The highest rate is 35%

Go read book

 

[WhoisJohnGault]

What I find more troubling is how we define poor. The poor in the nation, for the most part would be rich in many other nations.

This is very true. What other part of the world do "poor" people have cars, tvs, most times more than one and many times "rented" big screen tv's. Just ask a cop about that, how many times they see those tv's in the home of "poor" they end up in on a domestic. How many poor in other countries have free healthcare? Have food given their kids in schools, including breakfast. How many "poor" in other countries live in subsidized apartments built brand new with all the latest appliances brandy new too?

Oh there are real poor in this country, those who don't believe in handouts. But they are by far the minority.

 

[editec]

This is very true. What other part of the world do "poor" people have cars, tvs, most times more than one and many times "rented" big screen tv's.

All of the industrialized world, many that we think of as third-world nations, too.

But there are about one billion people trying to live on about a dollar a day. They're not poor they're destitute.

Seriously, the UN actually differentiates degrees of poverty because there are so many different levels of it.

Just ask a cop about that, how many times they see those tv's in the home of "poor" they end up in on a domestic.

Yeah, they're experts on that kind of thing, I'm sure. Cops are a sort of cross between social worker and forensic accountant, when they're not fighting crime.

How many poor in other countries have free healthcare?

All of them in Europe. Many of them in South America and Asia, too. You really haven't kept up with how the world has changed, have you?

Have food given their kids in schools, including breakfast.

Most of them.

How many "poor" in other countries live in subsidized apartments built brand new with all the latest appliances brandy new too?

Most of them.

Oh there are real poor in this country, those who don't believe in handouts. But they are by far the minority.

Yeah, I don't doubt that for a moment.

 

[jreeves]

I don't believe it. I heard ppl in this tax bracket will get a break and do worse under McCain.

Conservative mag. lol.

And if this gets the country back on track, so what?
my home and stocks worth more, pay down the debt, get consumer confidence right.

In other words, rol back the bush tax cuts.

Time a conservative mag......

 

[AllieBaba]

All of the industrialized world, many that we think of as third-world nations, too.

But there are about one billion people trying to live on about a dollar a day. They're not poor they're destitute.

Seriously, the UN actually differentiates degrees of poverty because there are so many different levels of it.




Yeah, they're experts on that kind of thing, I'm sure. Cops are a sort of cross between social worker and forensic accountant, when they're not fighting crime.




All of them in Europe. Many of them in South America and Asia, too. You really haven't kept up with how the world has changed, have you?



Most of them.



Most of them.



Yeah, I don't doubt that for a moment.

It's called socialism. The healthcare is crappy, the food is crappy and there's not much of it, the cars are crappy, the television is controlled (for those who actually can afford crappy sets or live where they can receive it). Oh, and the living conditions are crappy, too.

Gotta go. I'm taking my well-fed and happy child to the clinic....where I was able to call in this morning, she will be treated this afternoon and better by tomorrow. I'll be transporting her around in my later model car, medication will be available the minute I can get to the pharmacy and pick it up, and we'll go home and watch the Disney channel for the rest of the day....until dinner when I'm planning on fixing steak.