New York Judgment Against Trump Violates the Eighth Amendment

[meaner gene]

How were the banks victims? They made $100 million and want to do business with Trump again! And how are other account holders victims? Or other mortgage lenders victims?

The same way a man bought his wife an expensive diamond engagement ring. She was proud of it, and showed it off to all her friends, who were envious of her good fortune. She was happy, her fiance was happy, and of course the jeweler was happy, and they said they would repeat their business.

But a couple of years later, when getting her engagement ring cleaned, the jeweler used the deBiers verification machine and she was told that her diamond wasn't a natural diamond, but was a man-made diamond, worth less than a quarter of what they paid for it.

Up until that point, they were in the same position as the banks. They didn't know they were ripped off, until somebody with the right tools made them aware they were ripped off.

 

[meaner gene]

How is that comparable? In that case, there were tons of victims, and they lost fortunes.

Because like Trump and the banks, the Bernie Maddoff customers said the same thing as the banks. They were 100% satisfied.

People made fortunes, before they lost them.

In 2008, as the global economy began to decline, large numbers of Madoff investors needed money and began asking to cash in their investments. That's when Madoff's Ponzi scheme burst – he did not have enough money to cover his investors' requests and new investor money was hard to be found in the economic downturn.

Even as the Bernie Maddoff scheme was collapsing, people were sending him money.

 

[meaner gene]

^ When you don’t know the difference between assessed value for property taxes and appraised values

They were different in Nassau County NY until the 1999 federal lawsuit forced Nassau County to make them the same.

U.S. Suit Charges Bias in Nassau County Property Taxes (Published 1999)

Federal Government sues Nassau County, contending that its antiquated method of assessing property taxes forces black and Hispanic homeowners to pay disproportionately high taxes (M)

www.nytimes.com

Nassau's assessment system seems to defy comprehension. Homes are assessed based on what it would have cost to build them in 1938 dollars, while the land they sit on is assessed according to what it was worth in 1964.

This resulted in Nassau County forced to switch to using assessed (aka market) value for property taxes.

 

[meaner gene]

You know the property owner doesn't get to make his own tax assessments, right?

Trump negotiated that value with Palm Beach County in exchange for other considerations.

No one alleged any tax fraud, or charged Trump with any crime of common law fraud, because they could not produce a victim or show any intent to defraud anyone.

Actually nobody complained because none of the entities had the legal authority to discover they were being ripped off. The property tax office did not have the power to subpoena Trumps tax or business records, and the Banks didn't have the power to subpoena Trumps "real" business records. This is why Trump was charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records.

Just like if you bought a "new car", that the dealer certified. And you later found out, it was a flood salvage car. But up until then, like Trumps banks, they were happy, and would continue to do business with that dealer.

 

[excalibur]

Apples and oranges comparison.

And quit the "everyone hates the orange fuckup and everything is unconstitutional" bullshit.

You're just whining.

Facts are facts. Engeron violated the Eighth Amendment with his ruling.

 

[meaner gene]

Trump was (once again) not afforded anything that resembles due process, he was denied the right to a jury trial because he was convicted by summary judgement of a non-crime, and he is denied his right to appeal the judgement until he posts a bond for the entire amount.

Looks a lot like 7th, 8th, and 14th Amendment violations to me...

I can see you've never come near a CPLR.

The 6th amendment (right to jury trial) is ONLY for criminal trials.
And the right to jury trial under common law, doesn't extend to trials of equity.

A court of equity, also known as an equity court or chancery court, is a court authorized to apply principles of equity rather than principles of law to cases brought before it.

Hence no constitutional rights were violated.

 

[meaner gene]

Facts are facts. Engeron violated the Eighth Amendment with his ruling.

It wasn't a fine, it was a disgorgement.

 

[excalibur]

It wasn't a fine, it was a disgorgement.

No, it is a fine.

Judge fines Donald Trump more than $350 million, bars him from running businesses in N.Y. for three years

The state AG’s office said that when factoring in pre-judgment interest, the amount exceeds $450 million. Trump said on Friday night that he would appeal.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[meaner gene]

No, it is a fine.

Let me give you an example of the difference.

Say that somebody steals a $2 lottery ticket. He can be charged with petty larceny, and fined $100. The value of stolen property is based on it's value at the time it was stolen, independent of it's later value or lack of value.

Now, if that lottery ticket turned out to be a $200 million powerball winner, as the fruits of a crime, he is not allowed to keep the $200 million. Instead he would be sued, and forced to disgorge the $200 million, for a $2 crime.

 

[para bellum]

Actually nobody complained because none of the entities had the legal authority to discover they were being ripped off. The property tax office did not have the power to subpoena Trumps tax or business records, and the Banks didn't have the power to subpoena Trumps "real" business records. This is why Trump was charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records.

That is nonsense. Those people have no need for subpoena powers, they make their own assessments.

Just like if you bought a "new car", that the dealer certified. And you later found out, it was a flood salvage car. But up until then, like Trumps banks, they were happy, and would continue to do business with that dealer.

It's more like- you bought a car, and on your loan application it said do you own your home or rent. You said own, but you didn't disclose you had a mortgage.

You paid off the car loan with interest and the bank sent you the title. Everyone was happy, the contract was satisfied.

Then 10 years later, the State charges you with fraud for not disclosing the mortgage, deems you guilty without a trial, then takes the car and also your home, just to make sure you never do it again.

 

[meaner gene]

Actually nobody complained because none of the entities had the legal authority to discover they were being ripped off. The property tax office did not have the power to subpoena Trumps tax or business records, and the Banks didn't have the power to subpoena Trumps "real" business records. This is why Trump was
charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records.

That is nonsense. Those people have no need for subpoena powers, they make their own assessments.

There is a different between residential property, and retail property. Residential property is valued based on the structure and the location.
Retail property is often valued based on how much money it makes.
You could have two nearly identical golf courses just miles apart. One of them makes millions, while the other loses money every year.
Their market value is based on the raw property value (ex: so much per acre) plus the value of the buildings. Then a huge factor based on profit or loss.

And since only the owner knows what those number are, and banks rely on the records he gives them to be honest and not fraudulent.
In Trumps case with 34 counts of fraudulent business records, the banks weren't being told the truth, and had to rely on Trumps lies.

 

[meaner gene]

It's more like- you bought a car, and on your loan application it said do you own your home or rent. You said own, but you didn't disclose you had a mortgage.

You paid off the car loan with interest and the bank sent you the title. Everyone was happy, the contract was satisfied.

Then 10 years later, the State charges you with fraud for not disclosing the mortgage, deems you guilty without a trial, then takes the car and also your home, just to make sure you never do it again.

Actually in your example, when you said you owned a home, they would ask, are their any encumbrances on it? And you said NO!

Based on your lie, they give you a collateral secured rate, where if they knew you had two mortgages and a mechanics lien on the house, they would have charged you the unsecured personal loan rate.

 

[excalibur]

Let me give you an example of the difference.

Say that somebody steals a $2 lottery ticket. He can be charged with petty larceny, and fined $100. The value of stolen property is based on it's value at the time it was stolen, independent of it's later value or lack of value.

Now, if that lottery ticket turned out to be a $200 million powerball winner, as the fruits of a crime, he is not allowed to keep the $200 million. Instead he would be sued, and forced to disgorge the $200 million, for a $2 crime.

It is a fine.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

It is a fine.

So what you're saying is...

It's the Death Penalty.

 

[excalibur]

So what you're saying is...

It's the Death Penalty.

It is using the courts to commit a crime.

 

[meaner gene]

It is a fine.

The $200 million would not be a fine.
The $100 is a fine.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

It is using the courts to commit a crime.

So....."DEMOCRACY!!!!" (tm)?

"ANTI-RACISM"?????

"INSURRECTION!!!!!"

(I don't condone it.)

 

[excalibur]

The $200 million would not be a fine.
The $100 is a fine.

Nope.

 

[meaner gene]

It is using the courts to commit a crime.

Trump was the one who committed a crime, actually several dozen crimes of fraud.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Trump was the one who committed a crime, actually several dozen crimes of fraud.

Such a downgrade from "RUSSIA COLLUSION!" and "INSURRECTION!"

"Real Estate Overvaluation."

Ho-hum can't even get sensationalist Lefty Press these days.

It must be the Joe Biden boring malaise.