New CNN poll - Most Americans Reject Biden’s War in Ukraine

[JoeB131]

Thanks for keeping the thread active with your responses. Thanks for contributing to my thread using thread responses.

Well, I wouldn't want you to go Hungry, Ivan. I know that they only give you Borscht based on your responses... Probably best not to post after you've had your Vodka ration, though.

This war began with a completely unjustified Russian invasion. As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight for their country we should be willing to give them the weapons they need.

Let's not go that far. The Russians DID have a couple of valid complaints. The first was that there was an agreement called the Minsk Accords that would have allowed Russian-speaking areas to have more autonomy and called for cease-fires between the separatists and Ukrainian government. Zelensky completely violated those accords by trying to retake territory from the separatists. The second was that Russia has a completely valid complaint about Ukraine's desire to join NATO.

Also, we should have a negotiated settlement. The Ukrainians are NOT going to retake the areas the Russians currently control. The Russians are too dug in and most of the people who live there would rather be part of Russia anyway. Continuing to dump weapons into the region for years is just going to make everyone miserable.

My proposal would be.

1) To have both sides withdraw from the disputed areas, and place it under UN control for five years.
2) At the end of the five years, the Crimea and the four Oblasts can have a LEGITIMATE vote on whether they want to be part of Russia or Ukraine.
3) Regardless of how the vote turns out, Ukraine should be allowed to join the EU and NATO if it wants to.
4) The world community should pledge billions to rebuild Ukraine, and Russia should be a major contributor.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

He’s a leftist, not a liberal or progressive.

But yeah, he’s great.

OK, I will indulge your pedanticism on this one final time, because I like you well enough.

So listen: Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, Bill Maher, Bari Weiss, Jimmy Dore, the list goes on and on...

These are all old school Liberals who have not changed their positions on free speech and foreign policy, but are often to the Left of the MAGA movement when it comes to some social/fiscal issues.

As Liberals are.

It is the "PROGRESSIVE/WOKE" Left that they now deplore and find downright unrecognizable.

The COVID bullying, the endless wars, economic deprivation, sky high crime in blue cities - that now defines the Left.

Now, of course those at the top pulling the strings could care less about the puerile pawns like the people on this message board who truly buy the BS they're being sold by the Democrat Party. They're just in it for the $$$$. Just like the Establishment GOP.

But the Narrative they use to control has become hyper-militant. It's basically a combination of identity victim-hood politics and a reactionary crusade against any and all things Trump. This is what manipulates the weak little minions on the ground, and it screams of Leftist/Maoist thought control, because that's what it is.

That is why they use their rhetorical arsenal disbursed throughout the media, education and entertainment landscape to squeeze the Nation into helpless compliance. (At least that's the goal.)

Again, there is nothing Liberal about any of it, and the only reason they are able to get away with it is because the fools who follow them are blinded by the illusion of ORANGE MAN BAD and "We must defeat the White Patriarchy!/CLIMATE CHANGE WILL KILL US ALL IF WE DON'T GET RID OF TRUMP!" - all while the politicians at the top (Biden/Clinton/Obama etc.) laugh all the way to the Bank.

In short, Liberalism - whether one concurs with its ethos or not - requires critical thinking and the room for debate.

Leftism demands obedience.

Or else you're cast out of the tribe and must be destroyed as an enemy of the state.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

55% of independent Americans oppose funding Ukraine according to the CNN poll

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

Well, I wouldn't want you to go Hungry, Ivan. I know that they only give you Borscht based on your responses... Probably best not to post after you've had your Vodka ration, though.



Let's not go that far. The Russians DID have a couple of valid complaints. The first was that there was an agreement called the Minsk Accords that would have allowed Russian-speaking areas to have more autonomy and called for cease-fires between the separatists and Ukrainian government. Zelensky completely violated those accords by trying to retake territory from the separatists. The second was that Russia has a completely valid complaint about Ukraine's desire to join NATO.

Also, we should have a negotiated settlement. The Ukrainians are NOT going to retake the areas the Russians currently control. The Russians are too dug in and most of the people who live there would rather be part of Russia anyway. Continuing to dump weapons into the region for years is just going to make everyone miserable.

My proposal would be.

1) To have both sides withdraw from the disputed areas, and place it under UN control for five years.
2) At the end of the five years, the Crimea and the four Oblasts can have a LEGITIMATE vote on whether they want to be part of Russia or Ukraine.
3) Regardless of how the vote turns out, Ukraine should be allowed to join the EU and NATO if it wants to.
4) The world community should pledge billions to rebuild Ukraine, and Russia should be a major contributor.

Thanks for contributing to the thread views. You follow me around quite a bit.

 

[Richard-H]

Well, I wouldn't want you to go Hungry, Ivan. I know that they only give you Borscht based on your responses... Probably best not to post after you've had your Vodka ration, though.



Let's not go that far. The Russians DID have a couple of valid complaints. The first was that there was an agreement called the Minsk Accords that would have allowed Russian-speaking areas to have more autonomy and called for cease-fires between the separatists and Ukrainian government. Zelensky completely violated those accords by trying to retake territory from the separatists. The second was that Russia has a completely valid complaint about Ukraine's desire to join NATO.

Also, we should have a negotiated settlement. The Ukrainians are NOT going to retake the areas the Russians currently control. The Russians are too dug in and most of the people who live there would rather be part of Russia anyway. Continuing to dump weapons into the region for years is just going to make everyone miserable.

My proposal would be.

1) To have both sides withdraw from the disputed areas, and place it under UN control for five years.
2) At the end of the five years, the Crimea and the four Oblasts can have a LEGITIMATE vote on whether they want to be part of Russia or Ukraine.
3) Regardless of how the vote turns out, Ukraine should be allowed to join the EU and NATO if it wants to.
4) The world community should pledge billions to rebuild Ukraine, and Russia should be a major contributor.

That sounds great - if only human beings were human beings, but humans are greedy monkeys.

The fact is that Ukraine is an incredibly resource rich land, with an industrial basin in the Donetsk regions that was the pride of the USSR.

The Ukrainians will never agree to giving up an inch of Ukraine, while the Russians will never give up their goal of conquering all of Ukraine.

Meanwhile, the Western military industries are making a million $$$ a minute from this conflict. They haven't been this happy since the Korean war. It's even better because Ukrainians are fighting and dying instead of their people, so they are not suffering the political consequences at home like they did during the Vietnam war.

Expect this to be a long, long conflict. My only hope is that just before the 2024 election, Biden will finally give the Ukrainians the equipment they need to decisively win. I wish he had either done that a year ago, or just stayed out entirely and let the Russians have Ukraine without much of a fight.

 

[Burgermeister]

That sounds great - if only human beings were human beings, but humans are greedy monkeys.

The fact is that Ukraine is an incredibly resource rich land, with an industrial basin in the Donetsk regions that was the pride of the USSR.

The Ukrainians will never agree to giving up an inch of Ukraine, while the Russians will never give up their goal of conquering all of Ukraine.

Meanwhile, the Western military industries are making a million $$$ a minute from this conflict. They haven't been this happy since the Korean war. It's even better because Ukrainians are fighting and dying instead of their people, so they are not suffering the political consequences at home like they did during the Vietnam war.

Expect this to be a long, long conflict. My only hope is that just before the 2024 election, Biden will finally give the Ukrainians the equipment they need to decisively win. I wish he had either done that a year ago, or just stayed out entirely and let the Russians have Ukraine without much of a fight.

There is no money in winning the war.

 

[marvin martian]

It's fun to watch the Trump Cult act like a Hippy Drum Circle because no wars broke out on Trump's watch.

Since you mentioned it, why did Putin wait until Biden was in office to invade Ukraine?

 

[Richard-H]

Since you mentioned it, why did Putin wait until Biden was in office to invade Ukraine?

Putin apparently went insane during his Covid isolation.

 

[Missourian]

Will this issue be important when going to the polls for Americans?

A resounding no.

I tend to agree with you here.

Not going to be a political force driving voters in 2024.

 

[Hector12]

OK, I will indulge your pedanticism on this one final time, because I like you well enough.

So listen: Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, Bill Maher, Bari Weiss, Jimmy Dore, the list goes on and on...

These are all old school Liberals who have not changed their positions on free speech and foreign policy, but are often to the Left of the MAGA movement when it comes to some social/fiscal issues.

As Liberals are.

It is the "PROGRESSIVE/WOKE" Left that they now deplore and find downright unrecognizable.

The COVID bullying, the endless wars, economic deprivation, sky high crime in blue cities - that now defines the Left...









In short, Liberalism - whether one concurs with its ethos or not - requires critical thinking and the room for debate.

Leftism demands obedience.

Anti racists suppress opinions they dislike because they know their opinions will not survive critical scrutiny.

 

[alang1216]

Almost no republican or democrat support Russia that’s made up propaganda and it’s a part of racism against Russians. It’s like somebody who criticizes Israel saying everyone is a Jew for supporting Israel or something like that. Imagine somebody talking about Israelpalestine someone says he supports Israel. The other guy comes in “you’re a Zionist Jew”. That is exactly what your side sounds like.

Look at the CNN poll only the far left. Democrats are hanging onto supporting Ukraine. Huge numbers of moderate Democrats do not support Ukraine.

The only Americans that support Russia are Russian Americans, and not all of them even support the war.

The history of American isolationism is not good. Could we have prevented WWI or II? Maybe.

Claiming the high moral ground of neutrality is an illusion many Americans share. If they don't vote they feel they are absolved of blame for what the gov't does, except it doesn't work that way. I we don't want Russia to annex Ukraine and do nothing we still pay the price since Russia will get stronger and probably more bold. Do we want to challenge a strong or weak Russia?

 

[RhodyPatriot]

The history of American isolationism is not good.

The spectrum between the poles of "Isolationism" and "Let's start yet another stupid war that drains us of blood and treasure that we'll ultimately lose!" is an expansive one.

Like an endlessly vast chasm.

 

[marvin martian]

The spectrum between the poles of "Isolationism" and "Let's start yet another stupid war that drains us of blood and treasure that we'll ultimately lose!" is an expansive one.

Like an endlessly vast chasm.

Good luck explaining that to the leftist warmongers who just want to see dead bodies.

 

[JoeB131]

Since you mentioned it, why did Putin wait until Biden was in office to invade Ukraine?

He was getting everything he wanted with Trump... that allies alienated, selling out the Afghan Government, driving China into Russia's arms, giving Syria and Iraq to the Iranians, America divided like she had never been before.... All Putin had to do was sit on his ass and watch Trump fuck it all up.

 

[alang1216]

The spectrum between the poles of "Isolationism" and "Let's start yet another stupid war that drains us of blood and treasure that we'll ultimately lose!" is an expansive one.

Like an endlessly vast chasm.

Agreed. Bush and the neocons getting us to invade Iraq is a great example.

 

[Hector12]

Agreed. Bush and the neocons getting us to invade Iraq is a great example.

The Ukrainians told us, "We will fight for our freedom. We will welcome your support, but we will fight without it if we need to."

No one in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam told us that. We were more interested in fighting for what we considered their "freedom" than they were.

 

[alang1216]

The Ukrainians told us, "We will fight for our freedom. We will welcome your support, but we will fight without it if we need to."

No one in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam told us that. We were more interested in fighting for what we considered their "freedom" than they were.

My take away is putting your troops in a foreign country almost always is a grave, long-term error. Just ask the Russians.

 

[konradv]

Well, this is it here. How much longer in this corrupt funding of Ukraine go on for. We the American people don’t stand for it. What an incredible point made by Glenn Greenwald that it is the far left wing who is the most adamant supporters of the war in Ukraine.



How much longer can the corrupt media keep on blasting the anti-Russian racism and war propaganda. It can’t keep up we the American people Don’t accept it.

Imagine the response If someone was to tell a far left Democrat in 2005, that 18 years down the road 75% of the far left Democrats would be so adamant about supporting a war machine in Ukraine, and a corrupt government in Ukraine.

Thanks to the old-school Democrats and the non-neo conservative Republicans that are standing up for what’s right.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[OldFlame]

Well, this is it here. How much longer in this corrupt funding of Ukraine go on for. We the American people don’t stand for it. What an incredible point made by Glenn Greenwald that it is the far left wing who is the most adamant supporters of the war in Ukraine.



How much longer can the corrupt media keep on blasting the anti-Russian racism and war propaganda. It can’t keep up we the American people Don’t accept it.

Imagine the response If someone was to tell a far left Democrat in 2005, that 18 years down the road 75% of the far left Democrats would be so adamant about supporting a war machine in Ukraine, and a corrupt government in Ukraine.

Thanks to the old-school Democrats and the non-neo conservative Republicans that are standing up for what’s right.

It's the biggest money laundering scheme in modern history, that's why.

Everything boils down to $$$$$$$.

 

[Rigby5]

Okay, now I'm convinced you are a Russian Troll.
Thanks for playing.

Wrong.
Anyone who remembers the promises to not expand NATO eastward to Gorbachev, should be against the 2014 US takeover of the Ukraine.