NATO summit

[Silver Cat]

America and some Nato countries trying to conceive of a deal for the Ukraine before the summit.

NATO powers in ‘frantic’ race to conceive Ukraine deal – Politico

The US is negotiating with the UK, France, and Germany on joint security guarantees for Ukraine, Politico reports

www.rt.com

Plainly it's not as simple as just making the Ukraine a member and even not just putting it in writing on paper!

But some action must be taken soon because Russia may be close to ready to march to the Polish border.

Actually, they already are at two Polish borders.

 

[Zincwarrior]

'Some territory', that is the main question. And what will be considered 'the end of the war'.

Exactly.

 

[Donald H]

Exactly.

Russia must by now want more than just the Donbass and the Crimea. They at least want what's left of the Ukraine to become a neutral and they will want a non-aggression pact with America/Nato.

 

[Silver Cat]

To me, the frantic rush to give the Ukraine some sort of deal, is most likely America convincing Nato's powerful members to draw a line in the Ukraine that Russia is forbidden to cross.

And when Russia demonstratevly crossed it, NATO should... What? Commit a collective suicide?

My best guess is forbidding Russia from carrying out the much suspected turn by Russia to carpet bombing of Kiev, or some other.

Does anybody have any better guesses?

Keeping in mind the nuclear risk!

The USA should really improve its nuclear forces (as well as Civil Defense and AMD) and achieve a credible first strike capability. Make America great again, first of all.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Russia must by now want more than just the Donbass and the Crimea. They at least want what's left of the Ukraine to become a neutral and they will want a non-aggression pact with America/Nato.

Yes, but they screwed up in a big way didn't they.

 

[Flash]

Any guesses how Potatohead is going to fuck this one up?

 

[Silver Cat]

Yes, but they screwed up in a big way didn't they.

No, they didn't. From their point of view they are doing quite well.

 

[MisterBeale]

But then the Russians will take radioactive plains of Ukraine (and not only Ukraine) anyway. Actually, if we play this game foolishly - we can lose Alaska and California (say nothing about millions of American citizens). Do we really want it?

Nope.

That would never happen.

Americans don't like Russians.

Their own government is afraid of them, and constantly bombarding them with anti-gun propaganda.

Americans will never be ruled by another nation, never.

 

[Donald H]

And when Russia demonstratevly crossed it, NATO should... What? Commit a collective suicide?

The USA should really improve its nuclear forces (as well as Civil Defense and AMD) and achieve a credible first strike capability.

And when Russia demonstratevly crossed it, NATO should... What? Commit a collective suicide?

The USA should really improve its nuclear forces (as well as Civil Defense and AMD) and achieve a credible first strike capability. Make America great again, first of all.

No need. America's first strike capability is at least equal to or superior to any other nuclear force in the world. America can reduce Russia to ashes within minutes.

And Russia has the capability of ....................................

With nuclear arms that may not even detonate!

 

[Silver Cat]

Nope.

That would never happen.

Americans don't like Russians.

Their own government is afraid of them, and constantly bombarding them with anti-gun propaganda.

Americans will never be ruled by another nation, never.

I didn't say that the Americans will be ruled by the Russians. I said that there is a risk that the Russians will take Alaska and California without Americans.

 

[MisterBeale]

My best guess is forbidding Russia from carrying out the much suspected turn by Russia to carpet bombing of Kiev, or some other.

All the military experts that I have listened to and read, have commented that the reason Russia has kept its powder dry, and has not unleashed its full power, is because NATO has not entered the fray.

I don't think they will carpet bomb Kiev. They can't afford to use their most powerful and sophisticated weapon systems, for this very reason.

If NATO does get involved, they are going to need them. That is when you can expect that type of thing to go down. Or so I have heard from folks that know a lot more about it than I.

 

[MisterBeale]

I didn't say that the Americans will be ruled by the Russians. I said that there is a risk that the Russians will take Alaska and California without Americans.

Currently, this is a war by the American ruling class. The American electorate is either divided about it, and people are not real jazzed about it.

We either aren't paying attention, or don't care.

There is absolutely NO RISK of any power taking Alaska or California.

America was born in the flames of revolt from the oppression from a foreign power. We have more people in this nation that know how to make their own bullets, their own arms, and their own munitions than any place on the planet.

Nothing would unite this nation more, than a foreign invasion. The global ruling elites would assassinate leaders of any government that would even consider it, and forbid any nation to invade us, unless it were a multinational coalition of many nations, which would ensure an immediate success.

 

[Rogue AI]

If NATO can't follow its own rules it has no legitimacy. The US needs to stick to the rules or leave NATO.

 

[Donald H]

All the military experts that I have listened to and read, have commented that the reason Russia has kept its powder dry, and has not unleashed its full power, is because NATO has not entered the fray.

That seems logical to some extent.
I prefer the explanation that Russia is cautious about throwing a half million or more army into a trap.
It's probably that neither is entirely true.

I don't think they will carpet bomb Kiev. They can't afford to use their most powerful and sophisticated weapon systems, for this very reason.

Today from RT.com, Russia is mass producing Kinzhals. US intelligence will confirm or disprove that.

If NATO does get involved, they are going to need them. That is when you can expect that type of thing to go down. Or so I have heard from folks that know a lot more about it than I.

There's a big question on whether or not America/Nato could win a war against Russia.

That may or may not be speculated based on China's participation. I'm very confident that China will join the fray before seeing Russia needing to go nuclear to prevent it's defeat. And I'm confident in saying that China knows that they are next if Russia is defeated. So either way?

 

[Silver Cat]

No need. America's first strike capability is at least equal to or superior to any other nuclear force in the world. America can reduce Russia to ashes within minutes.

The credible first strike capability is not about ability to burn down some enemy's cities by an out of blue attack. The credible first strike capability (AKA Deterence type II, AKA multistability) is the capability to survive his retaliation strike. It depends on capabilities of the first counter-force strike, on capabilities of ABD, on capabilities of the damage alleviation and recuperation.

And Russia has the capability of ....................................

With nuclear arms that may not even detonate!

They believe that they have 80% chance of successful counter-force strike after which the retaliation US strike won't kill more than 5 million of them and 15% chance of less effective counter-force strike after which American retaliation strike won't kill more than 20 millions of them. It's definitely not the chances they are ready take just for lulz, but it is definitely acceptable level of risk when the possible alternative is much worse (like losing Novorossia, Crimea and Sevastopol).

 

[Donald H]

Currently, this is a war by the American ruling class. The American electorate is either divided about it, and people are not real jazzed about it.

We either aren't paying attention, or don't care.

There is absolutely NO RISK of any power taking Alaska or California.

Russia has no interests or ambitions of taking ???

America has ambitions of dividing and then taking the enormous wealth .....................

America was born in the flames of revolt from the oppression from a foreign power. We have more people in this nation that know how to make their own bullets, their own arms, and their own munitions than any place on the planet.

Nothing would unite this nation more, than a foreign invasion. The global ruling elites would assassinate leaders of any government that would even consider it, and forbid any nation to invade us, unless it were a multinational coalition of many nations, which would ensure an immediate success.

 

[Donald H]

The credible first strike capability is not about ability to burn down some enemy's cities by an out of blue attack.

I truly believe that if Russia would be defeated then their only concern would or will be the complete destruction of humanity, due mostly to radiation as opposed to blasts in L.A., N.Y., etc.

The credible first strike capability (AKA Deterence type II, AKA multistability) is the capability to survive his retaliation strike. It depends on capabilities of the first counter-force strike, on capabilities of ABD, on capabilities of the damage alleviation and recuperation.



They believe that they have 80% chance of successful counter-force strike after which the retaliation US strike won't kill more than 5 million of them and 15% chance of less effective counter-force strike after which American retaliation strike won't kill more than 20 millions of them. It's definitely not the chances they are ready take just for lulz, but it is definitely acceptable level of risk when the possible alternative is much worse (like losing Novorossia, Crimea and Sevastopol).

 

[Richard-H]

NATO should declare Western Ukraine - i.e. west of the Dnipro river - to be a NATO protectorate.

That would eliminate missile attacks into Kyiv & Lviv, and any chance of an attack from Belarus.

It would free up Ukrainian forces to fight in Eastern Ukraine.

 

[Donald H]

I truly believe that if Russia would be defeated then their only concern would or will be the complete destruction of humanity, due mostly to radiation as opposed to blasts in L.A., N.Y., etc.

Putin has said that the Russian people will be ready to meet God, and that God will accept the Russian people.

 

[Silver Cat]

Currently, this is a war by the American ruling class. The American electorate is either divided about it, and people are not real jazzed about it.

We either aren't paying attention, or don't care.

There is absolutely NO RISK of any power taking Alaska or California.

America was born in the flames of revolt from the oppression from a foreign power. We have more people in this nation that know how to make their own bullets, their own arms, and their own munitions than any place on the planet.

Nothing would unite this nation more, than a foreign invasion. The global ruling elites would assassinate leaders of any government that would even consider it, and forbid any nation to invade us, unless it were a multinational coalition of many nations, which would ensure an immediate success.

There were many glorious nations totally destroyed by a foreign invasion. And there is a real possibility that the Americans survived after Russian nuclear attack won't even name themselves as Americans.