NATO helped trigger the war in Ukraine

[toomuchtime_]

I have to wonder what Zelensky is thinking.

The Russians have turned to a war of attrition in the East. They are slowly but surely pushing the Ukrainians back, and may soon completely surround a major Ukrainian army. The Ukrainians will never force the Russians out of Donbas or Crimea - they are a lost cause.

Unless Zelensky has some secret weapon or huge army reserve, I doubt that NATO support will increase to any significant extent.

Zelensky has 2 hopes:

1. Russian casualties will get high enough that the political backlash in Russia will force Putin to withdraw (Doubtful)
2. Finland joining NATO will force the Russians to reenforce the Finnish border and they will no longer be able to support the war in Ukraine.

Even if #2 comes to pass, the Ukrainians will never force the Russians out of Donbas & Crimea.

Zelensky should be willing to give up Donbas & Crimea in exchange for a peace agreement.

The NATO should admit Ukraine and set up a defensive line in what remains of Ukraine.

Russia has violated every previous agreement it made with Ukraine, so there is no reason to expect that a new agreement will lead to peace.

This war can end in only two ways: either Ukraine will surrender and except another brutal Russian occupation or Russia will finally decide the cost of the war is too great and withdraw in the hope of being able to do business with the rest of the world again.

The war is unwinnable by either side on the battlefield. While it is unlikely Ukraine can drive Russia back across the border, no part of the land Russia controls will be safe from Ukrainian attacks.

 

[Open Bolt]

Zelensky should be willing to give up Donbas & Crimea in exchange for a peace agreement.

Nuts!

 

[Ringo]

A new car from the last western deliveries to fascist Ukraine.

https://idiod.video/0gqjek.mp4

 

[Richard-H]

Russia has violated every previous agreement it made with Ukraine, so there is no reason to expect that a new agreement will lead to peace.

This war can end in only two ways: either Ukraine will surrender and except another brutal Russian occupation or Russia will finally decide the cost of the war is too great and withdraw in the hope of being able to do business with the rest of the world again.

The war is unwinnable by either side on the battlefield. While it is unlikely Ukraine can drive Russia back across the border, no part of the land Russia controls will be safe from Ukrainian attacks.

Either of your two prediction for ending this leaves Russia in control of Donbas & Crimea. The cost of conquering all of Ukraine may eventually be too much for Russia, but the value of Donbas & Crimea is so high that Russia will never give them up.

Zelensky needs to face that reality - and save a whole lot of lives.

If a peace agreement were reached that conceded Donbas & Crimea, NATO would have to move into Ukraine and set up a defensive line - probably along the Dnieper River.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Either of your two prediction for ending this leaves Russia in control of Donbas & Crimea. The cost of conquering all of Ukraine may eventually be too much for Russia, but the value of Donbas & Crimea is so high that Russia will never give them up.

Zelensky needs to face that reality - and save a whole lot of lives.

If a peace agreement were reached that conceded Donbas & Crimea, NATO would have to move into Ukraine and set up a defensive line - probably along the Dnieper River.

Again, it makes no sense to talk about a peace agreement with Russia because Putin has broken every agreement Russia has made with Ukraine, the latest being the Minsk agreement of 2014, which Ukraine was forced to sign with a gun to its head. No peace agreement with Putin will bring peace.

Peace can only come when Russia finds that the cost of maintaining any part of Ukraine is unsustainable. Until then, the war will go on and the sanctions will increase and more and better weapons will flow into Ukraine and Russia will continue to lose 10,000 soldiers a month and Ukrainian artillery will continue to destroy targets 15 miles behind the Russian front line in Donbas. Again, the war will go on until Russia can no longer afford the cost of the war and withdraws from all of Ukraine.

NATO has resolutely refused to admit Ukraine and the US and NATO resolutely supports the Ukrainian resistance because it NATO is trying to avoid a direct conflict with Russia. Putting NATO forces in a truncated Ukraine would to guard a new border would accomplish exactly what NATO has been trying to avoid, setting a conflict between NATO and Russia that would make this current war seem trifling. There is no diplomatic solution to this war until Russia decides the cost of the war is unsustainable and withdraws from all of Ukraine.

 

[ESay]

Zelensky should be willing to give up Donbas & Crimea in exchange for a peace agreement.

The NATO should admit Ukraine and set up a defensive line in what remains of Ukraine

These points go hand to hand, and without the second part there is no meaning of the first one. And now the main question, won't be the number of fingers on one hand too excessive to count those willing to vote for the second part?

 

[bendog]

These points go hand to hand, and without the second part there is no meaning of the first one. And now the main question, won't be the number of fingers on one hand too excessive to count those willing to vote for the second part?

Hopefully the sanctions aren't going anywhere, and the West is ending reliance on Russia's carbon, and hopefully Putin is retiring.

Nato can't put boots on the ground, because the only "solution" was Ukraine as nonaligned militarily. But the West has largely given Ukraine all it needs to make any future aggression by Russia too costly.

The cost of reconstruction will be astounding, and the US is broke.

 

[ESay]

Hopefully the sanctions aren't going anywhere, and the West is ending reliance on Russia's carbon, and hopefully Putin is retiring.

Nato can't put boots on the ground, because the only "solution" was Ukraine as nonaligned militarily. But the West has largely given Ukraine all it needs to make any future aggression by Russia too costly.

The cost of reconstruction will be astounding, and the US is broke.

Well, if the US is broke, it is time to 'return home'. Europe, the Middle East, the Far East. Leave these regions to regional players.

 

[Ringo]

Again, it makes no sense to talk about a peace agreement with Russia because Putin has broken every agreement Russia has made with Ukraine, the latest being the Minsk agreement of 2014, which Ukraine was forced to sign with a gun to its head.

 

[Ringo]

Reuters: "Western countries want to play Robin Hood with Russian assets. Such plans raise uncomfortable questions about property rights and the rule of law."
Not just questions, but they drain all the sweet capitalist fairy tales about the "sanctity of private property" into the toilet

 

[toomuchtime_]

Reuters: "Western countries want to play Robin Hood with Russian assets. Such plans raise uncomfortable questions about property rights and the rule of law."
Not just questions, but they drain all the sweet capitalist fairy tales about the "sanctity of private property" into the toilet

Only those oligarchs who supported the war criminal, Putin, are losing their property if it is in the free world.

 

[Ringo]

if it is in the free world.

Give us all a brake! "Free", bloody, world. Hypocrisy must also have boundaries.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Give us all a brake! "Free", bloody, world. Hypocrisy must also have boundaries.

Yes, the free world, the world in which you don't go to prison for disagreeing with Putin.

 

[Richard-H]

Again, it makes no sense to talk about a peace agreement with Russia because Putin has broken every agreement Russia has made with Ukraine, the latest being the Minsk agreement of 2014, which Ukraine was forced to sign with a gun to its head. No peace agreement with Putin will bring peace.

Peace can only come when Russia finds that the cost of maintaining any part of Ukraine is unsustainable. Until then, the war will go on and the sanctions will increase and more and better weapons will flow into Ukraine and Russia will continue to lose 10,000 soldiers a month and Ukrainian artillery will continue to destroy targets 15 miles behind the Russian front line in Donbas. Again, the war will go on until Russia can no longer afford the cost of the war and withdraws from all of Ukraine.

NATO has resolutely refused to admit Ukraine and the US and NATO resolutely supports the Ukrainian resistance because it NATO is trying to avoid a direct conflict with Russia. Putting NATO forces in a truncated Ukraine would to guard a new border would accomplish exactly what NATO has been trying to avoid, setting a conflict between NATO and Russia that would make this current war seem trifling. There is no diplomatic solution to this war until Russia decides the cost of the war is unsustainable and withdraws from all of Ukraine.

The problem with that is all indications are that Putin has adopted Stalin's policies. He doesn't give a damn about Russian lives. He'll be willing to lose millions of Russian soldiers in order to win in Ukraine, and the Ukrainian army can not sustain that.

We can hope that some one in the Russian high command has the balls to give Putin a 9mm retirement, but that's unlikely.

If NATO controlled all of Ukraine West of the Dnieper river, it would be a severe defeat for Putin. His dream of conquering Ukraine would be dead. Meanwhile, it would free up massive amounts of Ukrainian military resources to fight in Eastern Ukraine.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The problem with that is all indications are that Putin has adopted Stalin's policies. He doesn't give a damn about Russian lives. He'll be willing to lose millions of Russian soldiers in order to win in Ukraine, and the Ukrainian army can not sustain that.

We can hope that some one in the Russian high command has the balls to give Putin a 9mm retirement, but that's unlikely.

If NATO controlled all of Ukraine West of the Dnieper river, it would be a severe defeat for Putin. His dream of conquering Ukraine would be dead. Meanwhile, it would free up massive amounts of Ukrainian military resources to fight in Eastern Ukraine.

The Ukrainians with western support are already holding the line against Russian troops and they are already fighting in eastern Ukraine and the war is rapidly exhausting Russian resources so there is no need to put NATO into Ukraine. As the progress of this invasion has shown, there is a vast gap between what Putin wants to do and what Russia is able to do.

 

[Ringo]

A statue in Brussels. This freak is managed both the EU and NATO. And of course expresses the cultural and progressive values of the collective West.

 

[Ringo]

 

[bendog]

Russia has violated every previous agreement it made with Ukraine, so there is no reason to expect that a new agreement will lead to peace.

This war can end in only two ways: either Ukraine will surrender and except another brutal Russian occupation or Russia will finally decide the cost of the war is too great and withdraw in the hope of being able to do business with the rest of the world again.

The war is unwinnable by either side on the battlefield. While it is unlikely Ukraine can drive Russia back across the border, no part of the land Russia controls will be safe from Ukrainian attacks.

imo there are two schools to opposing the US having any role in this. 1) Those who simply oppose any international force by the US ... despite Trump involving us in Yemen. The opposition is inconsistent, imo.

2) Those who believe Nato and/or Ukraine incited Russia's invasion. I think you and I would agree that Putin at age 70 simply decided the time was ripe, after Trump and Nato, to reacquire Ukraine that should never been allowed to think it could escape russia's orbit. And assuming Russia had overrun Ukraine, Moldova would have been next up. Followed by the former Prussia and Baltic states.

But I agree that any "settlement" to hostilities that Russia would make is just a false flag and a ruse to just buy Russia time to regroup.

But the question remains ... how does it end?

MSN

imo, the Baltics and newer Nato members are right .... Russia has to be seen, and Russians have to come to acknowledge, Russia lost.... something beyond 15K dead and a 1000 tanks or whatever the numbers actually are.

 

[Ringo]

Ukrainian comic about NATO superheroes rescuing children, protecting the world, curing cancer, saving the environment.
Russian propaganda, you say?

 

[Silver Cat]

NATO was never trying to place missiles in Ukraine. That may change in the future in response to Russia's continued aggression though.

The part of Ukraine that poses a missile threat to Russia is the north central part where Russian forces have already been expelled, not the eastern part that is still occupied by Russia.



They were never in danger of such from Ukraine. The only danger that is posed to ethnic Russian Ukrainians, is posed by Russia.



Not too likely that they will be selling very much.



America will produce the weapons. They will be deployed in eastern Europe.



The only neonazis in Ukraine are the Russian invaders.



Russia's military was devastated by the defenses around Kyiv. Russian losses would have been catastrophic.



The Ukrainian government is universally popular in Ukraine. Ethnic Russian Ukrainians love the current Ukrainian government.



NATO is providing the training.

Men are not fleeing Ukraine. Only women and children are fleeing. There will be plenty of fighters available.



Nonsense.



No such genocide.

Unless Russia starts a nuclear war with NATO, the only threat to Russians will be the Russian government.

You may denie the reality, but it's not a really good way to survive in the real world. Actually, the wishful thinking caused significant part of our problems.