Minimum Wage

[dreolin]

I tried to convey that very thought to someone a little while ago and got a nasty PM. It amazes me that people don't understand that concept. No one is going to pay you extra because you think you deserve it. They are going to pay you the value you bring to their business.
Another thing is being willing to work for free to gain experience. Internships and donating time can add up to extra $$ when going for a new job.

It sounds like the both of you (Asclepias and dblack) are sort of in a "pay what the labor market can bear" camp but, when it comes to American labor, I think you are ignoring a very big piece of the puzzle, and that is the effect of free trade. We are dealing with some very complex issues but I think, for this forum, it is best to keep it as simple and basic as possible. So I will make a very simple and factual statement and ask a couple of questions.

Ralph Lauren made a very good financial decision and, using donations from American workers and corporations, our United States Olympic athletes marched out in front of the world with uniforms made in China.

How did that make you feel?

Had those athletes decided not to wear those uniforms and buy Wrangler jeans, Pendleton shirts, Filson jackets and etc. would you have supported them?

Admittedly, this was pretty high profile news but it is illustrative of at least part of the problem and I think a big part. Every day, American workers, your neighbors, are losing their jobs and having to work for lower wages because they are being forced to compete with countries with sub-standard labor practices.

I think American workers DESERVE fair wages and work place protection. There is a lot more than the bottom line and that ol' "pie in the sky" thing won't feed hungry children.

I think we need to look or real solutions without selling our brothers and sisters out for tools that break and clothes that fall apart.

I was really unaware that the clothes were made in China but that is not surprising nor does it bother me as I will explain. I can only say that it is sad for nostalgic reasons. I have always prided myself on being able to see trends develop far in advance of those trends coming true. What I saw coming in the late 90's is here but even more so than I thought.

The biggest issue to me is the refusal of American workers to "move with the cheese". Big business has moved the goal post and has not told the segment of society that consists of the working class where they can find the American dream. Right now I see people living with an industrial age mindset when we have long since transitioned to the information age. The market place is global. We have to compete with people in nations that will take half of what you are currently getting and do the job without complaining. Physical jobs are dropping like flies to automation. Pretty soon minimum wage jobs are probably going to cease to exist as we now know it unless a human presence is absolutely required. There is just no future in minimum wage. Prices are going to go up and wipe out the gain in those wages if they are raised. It's the law of supply and demand. you put more money into the market place and raise the cost of doing business at the same time and it is going to result in higher prices.

Since we have a free market we cannot force companies to pay more without expecting to lose more jobs. The only place we can guarantee people get paid close to what they feel they should is going to be with government jobs. The fields that I would recommend going into now are the medical and engineering fields if you are looking for a stable somewhat high paying job. That requires people plan ahead and get skilled in those areas. Trade schools are a inexpensive alternative to college. People also need to learn to have multiple sources of income and at least one business entity. My grandpa told me to make sure I can be a producer more than a consumer. It is going to be tough for some people to change their mindset at first and that's why I have no problem paying my taxes for those that need assistance. To conclude our brothers and sisters need to open their eyes.

I think the trends you see developing are the result of a very narrow focus on a bottom line.

I see trends and have been fairly accurate as well, but I try to have a broader focus, look at them from both, or all sides, of the equation but with a firm focus and consideration of history.

Historiccally, when the "Haves" have too much and the "Have Nots" do not have enough, people rise up and demand a fair share, or what they deserve, and if they cannot achieve that by legal means, they pick up the gun.

Frankly, I am not even sure where the conflict is between us. Surrely you don't believe in gutting all current labor protections, environmental protections, etc. but the logic behind your arguments leads to that conclusion.

How many people can become Doctors and engineers, and the trend is that professions such as those can and will be outsourced.

 

[dreolin]

I was really unaware that the clothes were made in China but that is not surprising nor does it bother me as I will explain. I can only say that it is sad for nostalgic reasons. I have always prided myself on being able to see trends develop far in advance of those trends coming true. What I saw coming in the late 90's is here but even more so than I thought.

The biggest issue to me is the refusal of American workers to "move with the cheese". Big business has moved the goal post and has not told the segment of society that consists of the working class where they can find the American dream. Right now I see people living with an industrial age mindset when we have long since transitioned to the information age. The market place is global. We have to compete with people in nations that will take half of what you are currently getting and do the job without complaining. Physical jobs are dropping like flies to automation. Pretty soon minimum wage jobs are probably going to cease to exist as we now know it unless a human presence is absolutely required. There is just no future in minimum wage. Prices are going to go up and wipe out the gain in those wages if they are raised. It's the law of supply and demand. you put more money into the market place and raise the cost of doing business at the same time and it is going to result in higher prices.

Since we have a free market we cannot force companies to pay more without expecting to lose more jobs. The only place we can guarantee people get paid close to what they feel they should is going to be with government jobs. The fields that I would recommend going into now are the medical and engineering fields if you are looking for a stable somewhat high paying job. That requires people plan ahead and get skilled in those areas. Trade schools are a inexpensive alternative to college. People also need to learn to have multiple sources of income and at least one business entity. My grandpa told me to make sure I can be a producer more than a consumer. It is going to be tough for some people to change their mindset at first and that's why I have no problem paying my taxes for those that need assistance. To conclude our brothers and sisters need to open their eyes.

Engineering...Oh yeah, sure.
Why hire an American graduate when you can get the Best and the Brightest for 1/5th the price.

Try and get a business loan...try.

Free Market? It's called MNC written legislation...get rid of it.

So what are you going to do then? Lay down and die or keep going?

People are capable of fighting back, and by any means necessary. Economic justice is important.

 

[National Socialist]

Yes. First job I ever had. Worked for my sister at Pizza Hut for 5.15$ an hour every Friday and Saturday night. Was enough to buy my own clothes for school and cd's and ciggs when I wanted them. Every other job I have had best paying one was 10.89$ an hour and it was a temp job.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Minimum wage when I was 15 at a grocery store.

 

[Casjah]

I tried to convey that very thought to someone a little while ago and got a nasty PM. It amazes me that people don't understand that concept. No one is going to pay you extra because you think you deserve it. They are going to pay you the value you bring to their business.
Another thing is being willing to work for free to gain experience. Internships and donating time can add up to extra $$ when going for a new job.

It sounds like the both of you (Asclepias and dblack) are sort of in a "pay what the labor market can bear" camp but, when it comes to American labor, I think you are ignoring a very big piece of the puzzle, and that is the effect of free trade. We are dealing with some very complex issues but I think, for this forum, it is best to keep it as simple and basic as possible. So I will make a very simple and factual statement and ask a couple of questions.

Ralph Lauren made a very good financial decision and, using donations from American workers and corporations, our United States Olympic athletes marched out in front of the world with uniforms made in China.

How did that make you feel?

Had those athletes decided not to wear those uniforms and buy Wrangler jeans, Pendleton shirts, Filson jackets and etc. would you have supported them?

Admittedly, this was pretty high profile news but it is illustrative of at least part of the problem and I think a big part. Every day, American workers, your neighbors, are losing their jobs and having to work for lower wages because they are being forced to compete with countries with sub-standard labor practices.

I think American workers DESERVE fair wages and work place protection. There is a lot more than the bottom line and that ol' "pie in the sky" thing won't feed hungry children.

I think we need to look or real solutions without selling our brothers and sisters out for tools that break and clothes that fall apart.

I was really unaware that the clothes were made in China but that is not surprising nor does it bother me as I will explain. I can only say that it is sad for nostalgic reasons. I have always prided myself on being able to see trends develop far in advance of those trends coming true. What I saw coming in the late 90's is here but even more so than I thought.

The biggest issue to me is the refusal of American workers to "move with the cheese". Big business has moved the goal post and has not told the segment of society that consists of the working class where they can find the American dream. Right now I see people living with an industrial age mindset when we have long since transitioned to the information age. The market place is global. We have to compete with people in nations that will take half of what you are currently getting and do the job without complaining. Physical jobs are dropping like flies to automation. Pretty soon minimum wage jobs are probably going to cease to exist as we now know it unless a human presence is absolutely required. There is just no future in minimum wage. Prices are going to go up and wipe out the gain in those wages if they are raised. It's the law of supply and demand. you put more money into the market place and raise the cost of doing business at the same time and it is going to result in higher prices.

Since we have a free market we cannot force companies to pay more without expecting to lose more jobs. The only place we can guarantee people get paid close to what they feel they should is going to be with government jobs. The fields that I would recommend going into now are the medical and engineering fields if you are looking for a stable somewhat high paying job. That requires people plan ahead and get skilled in those areas. Trade schools are a inexpensive alternative to college. People also need to learn to have multiple sources of income and at least one business entity. My grandpa told me to make sure I can be a producer more than a consumer. It is going to be tough for some people to change their mindset at first and that's why I have no problem paying my taxes for those that need assistance. To conclude our brothers and sisters need to open their eyes.

Many people are also turning to freelance jobs or "moonlighting" to add to a dwindling income. Thing is, these Big Businesses will lack a strong consumer base if increasingly large segments of society are underpaid or unemployed. American consumerism is a mighty big seat to fill.