Mikey Moore: "Capitalism is a 'Ponzi Scheme'?

[The T]

Wall Street ran a Ponzi scheme in the Bush years.

That's why the economy collapsed. Now we need to re-regulate the markets.

The Republican Party almost destroyed America.

The GOP? I'm blinded by the ignorance of that comment.


Too bad the Dems didn't listen to the Republicans who warned them that more regulation was needed back in 2004. When it became apparent in 2004, with the sub-prime requirements in place, that both F&F needed regulation, the Republicans were begging for that regulation. Frank, Waters, et al saw no need for any regulation.

Here is an excellent example of how these folks ignored this problem back in 2004. Democrats on Fannie Mae in 2004 Video - sevenload

Note Democrats Waters, Meeks, Frank, Clay say "there is no crisis", "nothing is wrong", "I don't see any ... problems", "not worried about safety and soundness". Even Bill Clinton tells us there is no problem.

Also note Republicans Royce, Baker, Shays, Manzullo all call for regulation, control, bonus reform, etc.

That great, conserevatives have complete control of all branches of the goverment, then, as soon as they lose Congress, start to lecture Dems on what needs to be done. WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE CARE OF IT!

YOUR FIRST CLUE. Repub*I*Cans had Control. True Conservatives would have NEVER let any of this slide.

You need to learn the DIFFERENCE between Republicans/Conservatives. They aren't Synominous. And therefore why they are RepubIcans

 

[The T]

The GOP? I'm blinded by the ignorance of that comment.


Too bad the Dems didn't listen to the Republicans who warned them that more regulation was needed back in 2004. When it became apparent in 2004, with the sub-prime requirements in place, that both F&F needed regulation, the Republicans were begging for that regulation. Frank, Waters, et al saw no need for any regulation.

Here is an excellent example of how these folks ignored this problem back in 2004. Democrats on Fannie Mae in 2004 Video - sevenload

Note Democrats Waters, Meeks, Frank, Clay say "there is no crisis", "nothing is wrong", "I don't see any ... problems", "not worried about safety and soundness". Even Bill Clinton tells us there is no problem.

Also note Republicans Royce, Baker, Shays, Manzullo all call for regulation, control, bonus reform, etc.

That great, conserevatives have complete control of all branches of the goverment, then, as soon as they lose Congress, start to lecture Dems on what needs to be done. WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE CARE OF IT!

That's a comment based on ignorance or just an inaccuracy - the GOP did NOT have "complete control" in 2004.

It's OK. I already addressed this data DUMP...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1555791-post121.html

 

[Si modo]

That great, conserevatives have complete control of all branches of the goverment, then, as soon as they lose Congress, start to lecture Dems on what needs to be done. WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE CARE OF IT!

That's a comment based on ignorance or just an inaccuracy - the GOP did NOT have "complete control" in 2004.

It's OK. I already addressed this data DUMP...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1555791-post121.html

Good point. Those GOP who do have some fiscal sense were outnumbered by both the Dems and some terribly misguided Republicans. And, the GOP hasn't had the level of control that the Dems currently have for some time.

 

[Sidestreamer]

That is assuming that Capitlism is a "Zero-Sum Game", which it isn't. Capitalism actually creates wealth. Moore, and his ilk, (which benefit from denouncing it), actually are hypoctites. And that is the point of it.

I suggest that you look up the definition of "Ponzi Scheme".

You assume that if someone loses a certain amount, someone gained that same amount.

Wealth is created all the time.

Now why does Moore want to defeat by his films/rhetoric, that which he benefits from?

In your statement? That would mean that he is stealing it, wouldn't it?

(bold mine)

Of course we can just print money, print lots and lots of money... dang that inflation though.

BTW... *sniff* *sniff* ... Thomas603?

That's a STATIST premise (BOLD...MINE). Carter did this shit, and it took time to recover starting with the election of REAGAN.

Well how else would you turn wealth-building into something that isn't a zero-sum system? Do we start assigning non-existent values to our possessions?

BTW? Stop sniffing my ASS Douggie. Go apologize to the MODS or something.

I miss when you'd go in all caps and call me a CONSUMMATE JACKASS!!! Where's that old fire? You mellowed out!

 

[Care4all]

just look at what happened last Fall 08....

the ponzi scheme collapsed...to DENY this is being plain ignorant...and maybe we are being ignorant because we just don't want to believe our system was so corrupt, BUT IT WAS...and guess who is holding the bag....us tax payers, BY FORCE....

A TRILLION DOLLARS in bailouts in one sweep of the hand, SUPPOSEDLY to BUY up, TOXIC ASSETS of the banks and institutions whose bubble popped (ponzi scheme popped), YET NOT ONE TOXIC ASSET HAS BEEN BOUGHT....Paulsen was a fricking LIAR...took our money for WHAT?

To Bail out those who DICKED US, who were at the Top...of the Ponzi scheme...government is just wonderful....

 

[Si modo]

just look at what happened last Fall 08....

the ponzi scheme collapsed...to DENY this is being plain ignorant...and maybe we are being ignorant because we just don't want to believe our system was so corrupt, BUT IT WAS...and guess who is holding the bag....us tax payers, BY FORCE....

A TRILLION DOLLARS in bailouts in one sweep of the hand, SUPPOSEDLY to BUY up, TOXIC ASSETS of the banks and institutions whose bubble popped (ponzi scheme popped), YET NOT ONE TOXIC ASSET HAS BEEN BOUGHT....Paulsen was a fricking LIAR...took our money for WHAT?

To Bail out those who DICKED US, who were at the Top...of the Ponzi scheme...government is just wonderful....

What collapsed was not capitalism. It was a market that was regualted just enough to allow for massive abuse. Our legisltors fucked up the market. A capitatlist free market had nothing in common with what collapsed.

 

[Care4all]

just look at what happened last Fall 08....

the ponzi scheme collapsed...to DENY this is being plain ignorant...and maybe we are being ignorant because we just don't want to believe our system was so corrupt, BUT IT WAS...and guess who is holding the bag....us tax payers, BY FORCE....

A TRILLION DOLLARS in bailouts in one sweep of the hand, SUPPOSEDLY to BUY up, TOXIC ASSETS of the banks and institutions whose bubble popped (ponzi scheme popped), YET NOT ONE TOXIC ASSET HAS BEEN BOUGHT....Paulsen was a fricking LIAR...took our money for WHAT?

To Bail out those who DICKED US, who were at the Top...of the Ponzi scheme...government is just wonderful....

What collapsed was not capitalism. It was a market that was regualted just enough to allow for massive abuse. Our legisltors fucked up the market. A capitatlist free market had nothing in common with what collapsed.

then why pretend we live under Capitalism here if 'any' regulations, means we don't have capitalism here?

is our economy capitalistic or not, if not....what is it????

 

[Si modo]

just look at what happened last Fall 08....

the ponzi scheme collapsed...to DENY this is being plain ignorant...and maybe we are being ignorant because we just don't want to believe our system was so corrupt, BUT IT WAS...and guess who is holding the bag....us tax payers, BY FORCE....

A TRILLION DOLLARS in bailouts in one sweep of the hand, SUPPOSEDLY to BUY up, TOXIC ASSETS of the banks and institutions whose bubble popped (ponzi scheme popped), YET NOT ONE TOXIC ASSET HAS BEEN BOUGHT....Paulsen was a fricking LIAR...took our money for WHAT?

To Bail out those who DICKED US, who were at the Top...of the Ponzi scheme...government is just wonderful....

What collapsed was not capitalism. It was a market that was regualted just enough to allow for massive abuse. Our legisltors fucked up the market. A capitatlist free market had nothing in common with what collapsed.

then why pretend we live under Capitalism here if 'any' regulations, means we don't have capitalism here?

is our economy capitalistic or not, if not....what is it????

It's based on capitalism more than any other -ism. It's just not purely capitalistic. It doesn't need to be so black and white.

Because of this, we should demand that our legislators do thorough analyses of the regulations they put on markets. Those analyses should include envisioned ramifications of effects of proposed legislation. I have rarely seen such analyses done by our legislatiors. They are kneejerk reactions without even an adequate analysis.

 

[Toro]

just look at what happened last Fall 08....

the ponzi scheme collapsed...to DENY this is being plain ignorant...and maybe we are being ignorant because we just don't want to believe our system was so corrupt, BUT IT WAS...and guess who is holding the bag....us tax payers, BY FORCE....

A TRILLION DOLLARS in bailouts in one sweep of the hand, SUPPOSEDLY to BUY up, TOXIC ASSETS of the banks and institutions whose bubble popped (ponzi scheme popped), YET NOT ONE TOXIC ASSET HAS BEEN BOUGHT....Paulsen was a fricking LIAR...took our money for WHAT?

To Bail out those who DICKED US, who were at the Top...of the Ponzi scheme...government is just wonderful....

What collapsed was not capitalism. It was a market that was regualted just enough to allow for massive abuse. Our legisltors fucked up the market. A capitatlist free market had nothing in common with what collapsed.

Sure it did.

Understand this about the financial crisis: It would not have happened had there not been too much debt in the system. If the financial companies had had more equity on their balance sheets, they would not have collapsed. Period.

This cannot be stressed enough. If Bear Stearns and Lehman, and other wards of the state like Citigroup, Merrill Lynch, AIG, Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae had leveraged their balance sheets to 10x or 12x equity and not 35x or 40x or even 50x equity as they did, then a collapse would not have happened.

This had nothing to do with regulation. It had to do with the lack of regulation.

The five biggest brokers all received exemptions from the SEC to allow them to take on more debt. The big money center banks constructed special purpose entities offshore outside of the regulated banking system to take on more debt. When asset markets started to fall, the amount of equity that they had as cushions were not enough. These were decisions made freely and outside of the governmental regulatory system.

People made these decisions so they could make more money. More debt meant higher earnings, which meant higher bonuses and higher stock prices for their stock options. This was the market at work. The idea that this would not have happened with less regulation assumes that Wall Street would have been less greedy than they otherwise were. If you know anything about Wall Street, you know that they are never less greedy.

Lehman almost brought down the entire system because of the intertwining relationships in the unregulated derivatives market. Over the counter derivatives are, for the most part, not regulated by the government at all. Yet, because of the failure of one company, money markets, the London interbank market, the commercial paper market, the swaps market, all froze, and almost brought down the entire global economy. This had nothing to do with regulation or the government at all. This was because of actions taken freely in the markets. It was the government that had to step in and bail out these markets, or we really would have had the Great Depression 2.0.

 

[Oddball]

The unregulated derivatives market wouldn't have crashed if it weren't for the poor regulating in lending, allowing such ridiculously low reserve requirements.

It was poor regulation in some areas and lack of enforcement in others which ultimately caused the crash, not too much freedom.

 

[midcan5]

“Under capitalism man exploits man; under socialism the reverse is true”
- Polish Proverb

I'm not sure about socialism! LOL

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." John Kenneth Galbraith

 

[midcan5]

The unregulated derivatives market wouldn't have crashed if it weren't for the poor regulating in lending, allowing such ridiculously low reserve requirements.

It was poor regulation in some areas and lack of enforcement in others which ultimately caused the crash, not too much freedom.

OMG strike me dead on the spot - the wingnut is now calling for more rules, more law, more government. How is it you spell it? Oh that's right 'hypocrite.'


"The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do." Eric Hoffer

excellent reading

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22280
http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/recession
http://www.portfolio.com/news-marke.../11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom/?print=true"
http://bostonreview.net/BR34.1/madrick.php
http://bostonreview.net/BR34.1/baker.php

 

[Oddball]

Try reading for comprehension, mental midget.

I was calling for the regulations already in place to be enforced, not for new ones that won't be.

Given my druthers viz. fiat currencies, all this wouldn't even be a problem.

 

[rubberhead]

Does anyone here know what regulations they would support? Don't regulations give lobbyists more opportunities to curry political favor and bribe/blackmail lawmakers into giving them preferential treatment? Creating bureaucracies that can be infiltrated and exploited to stack the deck unfairly? We've had all these regulations in place and we're adding new ones all the time, but we still have bubbles bursting and booms and busts. Doesn't it strike you as odd that congress parades out the Fed chairman just around election time to lower interest rates? Isn't it strange that the economic stimulus plan won't really kick in until just before the 2010 elections? But the house bill of the health plan doesn't kick in until 2013? Our government is being taken over and the system collapse is being exploited to facilitate the take over. If it was such an emergency to pass the stimulus and the health plan then why would this be true? Open your eyes people, your country and your freedom is slipping away and you are advocating it. The constitution is being disregarded by both parties and the law of the land is now our sympathy and fear. If you're not worried, then you ought to be.

 

[rubberhead]

The unregulated derivatives market wouldn't have crashed if it weren't for the poor regulating in lending, allowing such ridiculously low reserve requirements.

It was poor regulation in some areas and lack of enforcement in others which ultimately caused the crash, not too much freedom.

Don't you think that people will stay away from those things now that they have seen the toxicity of them? New regulations will just create more loopholes and exceptions to be exploited. The old regulations are what created the current situation.

In 1920 there was an economic depression comparable to the one that took place in 1929. The difference was that the market was allowed to correct itself and recovered in one year of hard times. In 1929 and clear through the 30s, FDR realized that he could take political advantage of the hard times and act as the champion of the little guy and stiffened the market into near rigor mortis. The people became dependent on his policies and he enjoyed 4 terms because of it. Wow, massive bribes work, go figure. More regulation makes the economy more sluggish and rigid. Putting more regulation in place during hard times freezes the economy in those hard times. Letting the evil capitalists learn from their mistakes, on the other hand, is free and results in a more dynamic economy that is allowed to evolve and discover all kinds of problems and solutions. Yes, people will get ripped off and so there need to be laws and legal recourse. By the same token, if the government acts as a backstop so that no one will ever have to take any risks (which is what we are moving toward) then our prosperity is as artificial as our dollar.