Matt Taibbi: Fuck the business community!

[georgephillip]

"Obama seems to be campaigning for his own defeat!

"Thanks largely to the $13 trillion Wall Street bailout – while keeping the debt overhead in place for America’s 'bottom 98 per cent' – this happy 2 per cent of the population now receives an estimated three quarters (~75 per cent) of the returns to wealth (interest, dividends, rent and capital gains).

"This is nearly double what it received a generation ago.

"The rest of the population is being squeezed, and foreclosures are rising."

Possibly the biggest problem Progressives have is finding candidates willing to state what's completely obvious to businessmen like Warren Buffett:

"It is a reflection of how one-sided today’s class war has become that Warren Buffet has quipped that 'his' side is winning without a real fight being waged."

Obama's Greatest Betrayal

Nowhere in the Progressive model is an acknowledgement that people who made money tend to know how to make money and government handouts don't create prosperity for those who don't know how to make money.

Government handouts also take the form of tax bias. For example, the current bias favoring debt rather than equity investment which "...is largely responsible for loading down the US economy with debt."

"It encourages corporate raiding with junk bonds, thereby adding interest to the cost of doing business.

"This subsidy for debt leveraging also is the government’s largest giveaway to the banks, while causing the debt deflation that is locking the economy into depression – violating every precept of the classical drive for 'free markets' in the 19th-century..."

There is a profound acknowledgment in Progressive thought that providing tax incentives for debt leveraging, i.e., for most of the population to go into debt to the rich, will shrink an economy.

"This will lead to even deeper financial crises, employer defaults and fiscal insolvency at the state, local and federal levels.

"Future presidents will call for new bailouts, using a strategy much like going to military war.

"A financial war requires an emergency to rush through Congress, as occurred in 2008-09.

"Obama’s appointees are turning the U.S. economy into a Permanent Emergency, a Perpetual Ponzi Scheme requiring injections of more and more Quantitative Easing to to rescue 'the economy' (Obama’s euphemism for creditors at the top of the economic pyramid) from being pushed into insolvency.

"Bernanke’s helicopter flies only over Wall Street. It does not drop monetary relief on the population at large."

Obama"s Greatest Betrayal

 

[antagon]

i'm on some fuck the business community shit myself, although i add the caveat that i'm not referring to the small-business community. big firms successfully co-opted the pro-business message this election with advocacy of what is starkly in contrast to small business concerns. there is no effective way to concentrate small business funds to carry the same weight as bigger businesses. the chamber, of which i'm a member, has simply been hijacked by big biz and it seems like they've heard us out, taken our money and gone to washington, the press and the propaganda parade with some completely different megabiz shit which stands little chance of benefiting those small businesses which employ the vast majority of americans.

I've got no issue with noting the protectionist, inefficient, and ineffective model most large businesses use. The difference is that I want less government involvement both ways there, less big-business influence and less government crony capitalism. We don't get that by saying "fuck the business community" or even "fuck big-business." We certainly don't get it by having more ham-handed government micromanagement.

We get it by having more effective government oversight and less government regulation.

more than that, son. rhetoric aside, the influence of the government in our economy is significant. there is no way to reverse that fact without reversing the entire economy and society commensurately. that is just a fact of the matter with respect to the way developed nations function in contrast to shitholes and a lesson apart from what is really needed for small businesses in the US. there are regulations, taxes and laws which act as roads for businesses to operate on. rather than taking those away, they need to be redressed with the interest of american small businesses in mind to the extent that they currently benefit outsourcing publicly trading multinationals with the dosh to make shit happen in their favor.

 

[loosecannon]

They did that in 2008 also, the voters moved right. Moving to the left didn't work.

The voters moved neither right or left in either case. They just expressed voter's remorse at their last choice.

The electorate hates both factions, both parties. They just want results.

I can see your point, but I disagree. The trends were very right of center, from national races all the way down to local races; even races where no incumbents were running the Republican won most of the time.

That's because far more on the right showed up to vote.

That doesn't indicate a change in bearing, just a different representation at the polls.

 

[loosecannon]

i'm on some fuck the business community shit myself, although i add the caveat that i'm not referring to the small-business community. big firms successfully co-opted the pro-business message this election with advocacy of what is starkly in contrast to small business concerns. there is no effective way to concentrate small business funds to carry the same weight as bigger businesses. the chamber, of which i'm a member, has simply been hijacked by big biz and it seems like they've heard us out, taken our money and gone to washington, the press and the propaganda parade with some completely different megabiz shit which stands little chance of benefiting those small businesses which employ the vast majority of americans.

And yet small buziness is THE engine of employment growth, go figure.

its a real ass-kickin. the nevada development authority and the las vegas chamber did this huge all-weekend small biz round-table farce in september, whereby it was determined that one of the top pieces of tax policy sought by small businesses was a revision of the AMT provision, should a renewal of all/part of the bush tax policy come to pass. i understand from other biz peeps back in san diego that the same was concluded there, and that they had advocated such be considered by every congressional session.

the regional chamber manifesto made no mention of the issue whatsoever. it is a book, and seems like it was printed in august or september without any consideration of the round table which i add was a fundrai$er.

the only thing the chamber's got going for it is the networking mixers. the NDA can at least grease things in the state. small biz advocacy is hurting. i think the cabinet-level position for the SBA needs to be permanent. i think the SBA lending facility needs to be taken on-board like the student loans in the obamacare rider. i think a lot of shit that has no way of getting to DC.

I told you before good ideas seldom succeed on merits. They succeed no more often than bad ideas based on strength of character of the folks promoting them, dumb luck or perfect timing. Not because they are the best ideas.

 

[loosecannon]

"It encourages corporate raiding with junk bonds, thereby adding interest to the cost of doing business.

"This subsidy for debt leveraging also is the government’s largest giveaway to the banks, while causing the debt deflation that is locking the economy into depression – violating every precept of the classical drive for 'free markets' in the 19th-century..."

There is a profound acknowledgment in Progressive thought that providing tax incentives for debt leveraging, i.e., for most of the population to go into debt to the rich, will shrink an economy.

"This will lead to even deeper financial crises, employer defaults and fiscal insolvency at the state, local and federal levels.

"Future presidents will call for new bailouts, using a strategy much like going to military war.

"A financial war requires an emergency to rush through Congress, as occurred in 2008-09.

"Obama’s appointees are turning the U.S. economy into a Permanent Emergency, a Perpetual Ponzi Scheme requiring injections of more and more Quantitative Easing to to rescue 'the economy' (Obama’s euphemism for creditors at the top of the economic pyramid) from being pushed into insolvency.

"Bernanke’s helicopter flies only over Wall Street. It does not drop monetary relief on the population at large."

Obama"s Greatest Betrayal

 

[antagon]

i've got a back-burner business plan in the wings over small business advocacy, but 59 out of 60 hours a week, none of that shit really gets under my skin. maybe i'll bust it out when i'm tired of bidding ditches and we'll see if decent ideas got legs.

i still think decent ideas die on armchairs more than anywhere else.

 

[asterism]

i'm on some fuck the business community shit myself, although i add the caveat that i'm not referring to the small-business community. big firms successfully co-opted the pro-business message this election with advocacy of what is starkly in contrast to small business concerns. there is no effective way to concentrate small business funds to carry the same weight as bigger businesses. the chamber, of which i'm a member, has simply been hijacked by big biz and it seems like they've heard us out, taken our money and gone to washington, the press and the propaganda parade with some completely different megabiz shit which stands little chance of benefiting those small businesses which employ the vast majority of americans.

And yet small buziness is THE engine of employment growth, go figure.

its a real ass-kickin. the nevada development authority and the las vegas chamber did this huge all-weekend small biz round-table farce in september, whereby it was determined that one of the top pieces of tax policy sought by small businesses was a revision of the AMT provision, should a renewal of all/part of the bush tax policy come to pass. i understand from other biz peeps back in san diego that the same was concluded there, and that they had advocated such be considered by every congressional session.

the regional chamber manifesto made no mention of the issue whatsoever. it is a book, and seems like it was printed in august or september without any consideration of the round table which i add was a fundrai$er.

the only thing the chamber's got going for it is the networking mixers. the NDA can at least grease things in the state. small biz advocacy is hurting. i think the cabinet-level position for the SBA needs to be permanent. i think the SBA lending facility needs to be taken on-board like the student loans in the obamacare rider. i think a lot of shit that has no way of getting to DC.

That's the dirty secret of the Bush Tax cuts, most small business owners didn't get one. We got a tax increase.

 

[asterism]

i'm on some fuck the business community shit myself, although i add the caveat that i'm not referring to the small-business community. big firms successfully co-opted the pro-business message this election with advocacy of what is starkly in contrast to small business concerns. there is no effective way to concentrate small business funds to carry the same weight as bigger businesses. the chamber, of which i'm a member, has simply been hijacked by big biz and it seems like they've heard us out, taken our money and gone to washington, the press and the propaganda parade with some completely different megabiz shit which stands little chance of benefiting those small businesses which employ the vast majority of americans.

I've got no issue with noting the protectionist, inefficient, and ineffective model most large businesses use. The difference is that I want less government involvement both ways there, less big-business influence and less government crony capitalism. We don't get that by saying "fuck the business community" or even "fuck big-business." We certainly don't get it by having more ham-handed government micromanagement.

We get it by having more effective government oversight and less government regulation.

more than that, son. rhetoric aside, the influence of the government in our economy is significant. there is no way to reverse that fact without reversing the entire economy and society commensurately. that is just a fact of the matter with respect to the way developed nations function in contrast to shitholes and a lesson apart from what is really needed for small businesses in the US. there are regulations, taxes and laws which act as roads for businesses to operate on. rather than taking those away, they need to be redressed with the interest of american small businesses in mind to the extent that they currently benefit outsourcing publicly trading multinationals with the dosh to make shit happen in their favor.

Son?

I like your analogy about "roads for business to operate on." How do you propose to "reverse the entire economy and society commensurately?"

 

[asterism]

"Obama seems to be campaigning for his own defeat!

"Thanks largely to the $13 trillion Wall Street bailout – while keeping the debt overhead in place for America’s 'bottom 98 per cent' – this happy 2 per cent of the population now receives an estimated three quarters (~75 per cent) of the returns to wealth (interest, dividends, rent and capital gains).

"This is nearly double what it received a generation ago.

"The rest of the population is being squeezed, and foreclosures are rising."

Possibly the biggest problem Progressives have is finding candidates willing to state what's completely obvious to businessmen like Warren Buffett:

"It is a reflection of how one-sided today’s class war has become that Warren Buffet has quipped that 'his' side is winning without a real fight being waged."

Obama's Greatest Betrayal

Nowhere in the Progressive model is an acknowledgement that people who made money tend to know how to make money and government handouts don't create prosperity for those who don't know how to make money.

Government handouts also take the form of tax bias. For example, the current bias favoring debt rather than equity investment which "...is largely responsible for loading down the US economy with debt."

"It encourages corporate raiding with junk bonds, thereby adding interest to the cost of doing business.

"This subsidy for debt leveraging also is the government’s largest giveaway to the banks, while causing the debt deflation that is locking the economy into depression – violating every precept of the classical drive for 'free markets' in the 19th-century..."

There is a profound acknowledgment in Progressive thought that providing tax incentives for debt leveraging, i.e., for most of the population to go into debt to the rich, will shrink an economy.

"This will lead to even deeper financial crises, employer defaults and fiscal insolvency at the state, local and federal levels.

"Future presidents will call for new bailouts, using a strategy much like going to military war.

"A financial war requires an emergency to rush through Congress, as occurred in 2008-09.

"Obama’s appointees are turning the U.S. economy into a Permanent Emergency, a Perpetual Ponzi Scheme requiring injections of more and more Quantitative Easing to to rescue 'the economy' (Obama’s euphemism for creditors at the top of the economic pyramid) from being pushed into insolvency.

"Bernanke’s helicopter flies only over Wall Street. It does not drop monetary relief on the population at large."

Obama"s Greatest Betrayal

It was worse under FDR and we recovered.

We actually changed course quicker this time around. Debt was the currency of power before, but that is no longer the case. Cash and sustainability are key now, best if one has both.

But it's going to be a long haul, that's for sure.

 

[asterism]

i've got a back-burner business plan in the wings over small business advocacy, but 59 out of 60 hours a week, none of that shit really gets under my skin. maybe i'll bust it out when i'm tired of bidding ditches and we'll see if decent ideas got legs.

i still think decent ideas die on armchairs more than anywhere else.

Sounds good and I'd like to take a look when you're ready.

I'm going into brokerage myself. Certain segments are ignored and plenty of local productivity simply fades away.

 

[antagon]

I've got no issue with noting the protectionist, inefficient, and ineffective model most large businesses use. The difference is that I want less government involvement both ways there, less big-business influence and less government crony capitalism. We don't get that by saying "fuck the business community" or even "fuck big-business." We certainly don't get it by having more ham-handed government micromanagement.

We get it by having more effective government oversight and less government regulation.

more than that, son. rhetoric aside, the influence of the government in our economy is significant. there is no way to reverse that fact without reversing the entire economy and society commensurately. that is just a fact of the matter with respect to the way developed nations function in contrast to shitholes and a lesson apart from what is really needed for small businesses in the US. there are regulations, taxes and laws which act as roads for businesses to operate on. rather than taking those away, they need to be redressed with the interest of american small businesses in mind to the extent that they currently benefit outsourcing publicly trading multinationals with the dosh to make shit happen in their favor.

Son?

i got worked up thinking about the chamber sham. colorful.

I like your analogy about "roads for business to operate on." How do you propose to "reverse the entire economy and society commensurately?"

not something i advocate.

i do think there's a bunch of qualitative changes that the government can make which would project less burden on businesses and individuals who dont depend on the government so dearly, and more on those which do. we could, for example, assault the debt without raising income tax rates, and even by offering more in the way of deductability if the government would seek usage taxes on to big to fails, citizen and visa taxes/fees on immigrants and protection excises on labor unions... i could go on and on on ways the country would work if i was an evil dictator.

 

[loosecannon]

i've got a back-burner business plan in the wings over small business advocacy, but 59 out of 60 hours a week, none of that shit really gets under my skin. maybe i'll bust it out when i'm tired of bidding ditches and we'll see if decent ideas got legs.

i still think decent ideas die on armchairs more than anywhere else.

Maybe so but to test that theory you still have to launch them all with the strongest of personalities at the helm, the best moments of opportunity and dumb luck at your back to be sure. Measure the results with the same conditions applied.

Since that is impossible and since bad ideas seem to circle the world before great ideas get their shoes on......

 

[georgephillip]

They did that in 2008 also, the voters moved right. Moving to the left didn't work.

The voters moved neither right or left in either case. They just expressed voter's remorse at their last choice.

The electorate hates both factions, both parties. They just want results.

How bad do you think things would have to get before a substantial percentage of voters decided it was in their best interest to vote AGAINST all Republicans AND Democrats on their ballots?

In much of this country there are established third party candidates already on the ballot.

Granted this option amounts to a political leap of faith, but our two-party plutocracy isn't fazed by a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat?

Have Republicans AND Democrats outlived their usefulness to this Republic?

 

[loosecannon]

more than that, son. rhetoric aside, the influence of the government in our economy is significant. there is no way to reverse that fact without reversing the entire economy and society commensurately. that is just a fact of the matter with respect to the way developed nations function in contrast to shitholes and a lesson apart from what is really needed for small businesses in the US. there are regulations, taxes and laws which act as roads for businesses to operate on. rather than taking those away, they need to be redressed with the interest of american small businesses in mind to the extent that they currently benefit outsourcing publicly trading multinationals with the dosh to make shit happen in their favor.

Son?

i got worked up thinking about the chamber sham. colorful.

I like your analogy about "roads for business to operate on." How do you propose to "reverse the entire economy and society commensurately?"

not something i advocate.

i do think there's a bunch of qualitative changes that the government can make which would project less burden on businesses and individuals who dont depend on the government so dearly, and more on those which do. we could, for example, assault the debt without raising income tax rates, and even by offering more in the way of deductability if the government would seek usage taxes on to big to fails, citizen and visa taxes/fees on immigrants and protection excises on labor unions... i could go on and on on ways the country would work if i was an evil dictator.

You are leaning way into my proprietary idealism of zero tax but numerous user fees. IMO this kind of taxation makes far more sense. Without the stigma of "taxing" anybody.

 

[loosecannon]

They did that in 2008 also, the voters moved right. Moving to the left didn't work.

The voters moved neither right or left in either case. They just expressed voter's remorse at their last choice.

The electorate hates both factions, both parties. They just want results.

How bad do you think things would have to get before a substantial percentage of voters decided it was in their best interest to vote AGAINST all Republicans AND Democrats on their ballots?

In much of this country there are established third party candidates already on the ballot.

Granted this option amounts to a political leap of faith, but our two-party plutocracy isn't fazed by a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat?

Have Republicans AND Democrats outlived their usefulness to this Republic?

Well of course they have outlived their usefullness but they still command an iron grip on political power!

What would it take to break this intractible two party monopoly if the tea party began as a Ron Paul offshoot and morphed into a GOP power center?

I suspect we are one hugely powerful independent leadership personality away from finding out. But of course any such leader will surely be assassinated. Just ask MLKJ, JFK, BK, or any other charismatic leader from the late 60's and early 70's. All of our leaders in that era died early deaths while Castro lived to be 221. go figure.

 

[Avatar4321]

That's what our government's been doing daily. And they wonder why we have no jobs.

 

[asterism]

more than that, son. rhetoric aside, the influence of the government in our economy is significant. there is no way to reverse that fact without reversing the entire economy and society commensurately. that is just a fact of the matter with respect to the way developed nations function in contrast to shitholes and a lesson apart from what is really needed for small businesses in the US. there are regulations, taxes and laws which act as roads for businesses to operate on. rather than taking those away, they need to be redressed with the interest of american small businesses in mind to the extent that they currently benefit outsourcing publicly trading multinationals with the dosh to make shit happen in their favor.

Son?

i got worked up thinking about the chamber sham. colorful.

No worries.

I like your analogy about "roads for business to operate on." How do you propose to "reverse the entire economy and society commensurately?"

not something i advocate.

i do think there's a bunch of qualitative changes that the government can make which would project less burden on businesses and individuals who dont depend on the government so dearly, and more on those which do. we could, for example, assault the debt without raising income tax rates, and even by offering more in the way of deductability if the government would seek usage taxes on to big to fails, citizen and visa taxes/fees on immigrants and protection excises on labor unions... i could go on and on on ways the country would work if i was an evil dictator.

Well I think the key issue there is that it seems such reforms require a "dictator" of some sort and that's the problem.

That said, a slower but freer path to the same thing is actually doing something about it. Of the hundreds of small business owners I know, few vote.

 

[asterism]

They did that in 2008 also, the voters moved right. Moving to the left didn't work.

The voters moved neither right or left in either case. They just expressed voter's remorse at their last choice.

The electorate hates both factions, both parties. They just want results.

How bad do you think things would have to get before a substantial percentage of voters decided it was in their best interest to vote AGAINST all Republicans AND Democrats on their ballots?

In much of this country there are established third party candidates already on the ballot.

Granted this option amounts to a political leap of faith, but our two-party plutocracy isn't fazed by a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat?

I took that leap of faith in 1992. It had the exact opposite effect, the left 40% got a victory and changed the whole game. Remember, Dole ran a platform that said the economy had the potential to grow 15-20% in his first term and was laughed at by Clinton - who supposedly (according to the left) then coordinated that exact growth while expanding government and raising taxes - which is now used as "proof" that tax increases actually help the economy.

Have Republicans AND Democrats outlived their usefulness to this Republic?

Not if the new crop does what the voters elected them to do. I don't think it's about Democrat vs. Republican anymore, it's about the role of government. Fiscal Conservatives want less of it, and that smaller portion to be more effective. Fiscal Liberals and Progressives want more of it, and that larger portion to be more authoritative. Then there's the Social Conservatives who want more government, but focused on a different set of priorities.

It's a mess, but things are better now than they were in 2005.

 

[asterism]

The voters moved neither right or left in either case. They just expressed voter's remorse at their last choice.

The electorate hates both factions, both parties. They just want results.

How bad do you think things would have to get before a substantial percentage of voters decided it was in their best interest to vote AGAINST all Republicans AND Democrats on their ballots?

In much of this country there are established third party candidates already on the ballot.

Granted this option amounts to a political leap of faith, but our two-party plutocracy isn't fazed by a "choice" between Republican OR Democrat?

Have Republicans AND Democrats outlived their usefulness to this Republic?

Well of course they have outlived their usefullness but they still command an iron grip on political power!

What would it take to break this intractible two party monopoly if the tea party began as a Ron Paul offshoot and morphed into a GOP power center?

I suspect we are one hugely powerful independent leadership personality away from finding out. But of course any such leader will surely be assassinated. Just ask MLKJ, JFK, BK, or any other charismatic leader from the late 60's and early 70's. All of our leaders in that era died early deaths while Castro lived to be 221. go figure.

Ron Paul failed as a leader. He had a huge grassroots effort and he wasted it when he lost the GOP Primary. He could have redirected that huge base to doing just what the Tea Party did, elect like-minded Representatives.

 

[asterism]

Son?

i got worked up thinking about the chamber sham. colorful.

I like your analogy about "roads for business to operate on." How do you propose to "reverse the entire economy and society commensurately?"

not something i advocate.

i do think there's a bunch of qualitative changes that the government can make which would project less burden on businesses and individuals who dont depend on the government so dearly, and more on those which do. we could, for example, assault the debt without raising income tax rates, and even by offering more in the way of deductability if the government would seek usage taxes on to big to fails, citizen and visa taxes/fees on immigrants and protection excises on labor unions... i could go on and on on ways the country would work if i was an evil dictator.

You are leaning way into my proprietary idealism of zero tax but numerous user fees. IMO this kind of taxation makes far more sense. Without the stigma of "taxing" anybody.

The problem with user fees as the primary means to fund government is that most who "use" don't have the means to pay but have the means to get someone else to pay. Then there's the rigged game of having government propose a new user fee funded service that then becomes an entitlement that then becomes something else to subsidize.

Think toll roads and Social Security.