Match up or sit down

[LordBrownTrout]

Moment we see this on a US news channel or documentary one you'll have a point.

You won't, it's insulting to Muslims. You won't see Jesus dying naked on the cross, which he did, either. Get over it.

Yes, we did. The cross was in a jar of urine displayed for everyone. You'll tell us when a major news networks shows mohammed crawling out of a well.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

The left wing media is constantly showing a Muslim cartoon...Obama is on daily

 

[Coyote]

Can't help but notice that no one dares to show images of Mohammed for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares to criticize Islam for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares suggest anything negative about Islam for fear of Muslim violence.

Gee, three for three wrong. That's not easy to do. Well, maybe for it is.

If you've seen Mohammed imagery on tv lemme know what channel.

Actually, I haven't seen anti-Muslim imagery, anti-Jewish imagery or anti-Christian imagery beyond very mild stuff on broadcast tv at all. I don't know about cable. I saw some cartoon based show that cartooned Mohammed in a satyrical way.

I agree, as a religion Islam must be able to tolerate the disrespect of free speech without resorting to violence. That doesn't mean though - you should go out of your way just to insult one religion which is what you seem to call for. When Judaism is attacked with anti-semitic cartoons - people condemn it for what is (peacefully). When Islam is attacked with anti-Islamic cartoons - it's gorified as free speech. When Christianity is attacked with anti-Christian cartoons, no one seems to care much. Condemn it for what it is - peacefully. And condemn violence as an unacceptable means of communication. That's where Islam needs to head.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Can't help but notice that no one dares to show images of Mohammed for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares to criticize Islam for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares suggest anything negative about Islam for fear of Muslim violence.

Gee, three for three wrong. That's not easy to do. Well, maybe for it is.

If you've seen Mohammed imagery on tv lemme know what channel.

Actually, I haven't seen anti-Muslim imagery, anti-Jewish imagery or anti-Christian imagery beyond very mild stuff on broadcast tv at all. I don't know about cable. I saw some cartoon based show that cartooned Mohammed in a satyrical way.

I agree, as a religion Islam must be able to tolerate the disrespect of free speech without resorting to violence. That doesn't mean though - you should go out of your way just to insult one religion which is what you seem to call for. When Judaism is attacked with anti-semitic cartoons - people condemn it for what is (peacefully). When Islam is attacked with anti-Islamic cartoons - it's gorified as free speech. When Christianity is attacked with anti-Christian cartoons, no one seems to care much. Condemn it for what it is - peacefully. And condemn violence as an unacceptable means of communication. That's where Islam needs to head.

But if we continue to treat Islam as a special thing, refraining from doing what we know upsets them, then they've won. This refraining extends to no other religion. But knowing the kind of rhetoric and angst we heaped on enemy countries during WWII it's hard to understand why we're perfectly willing to insult and trash Japan with the most vile and racist posters and propaganda, but not Islam even ifonly showing their prophet in a neutral sorta way.

If we can't rebutt, criticize, and disagree with Islam then it's basicaly become the defacto system of government and law for whatever country refuses to oppose it. As here in the US.

I don't wanna 'go out of our way to be dicks to people.' But if they're to be a respected religion, they need to accept not everyone agrees with them, and others are going to deliberately insult and be dicks. When you claim your imaginary friend from childhood is a real being, that's what happens.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Can't help but notice that no one dares to show images of Mohammed for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares to criticize Islam for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares suggest anything negative about Islam for fear of Muslim violence.

Gee, three for three wrong. That's not easy to do. Well, maybe for it is.

If you've seen Mohammed imagery on tv lemme know what channel.

Actually, I haven't seen anti-Muslim imagery, anti-Jewish imagery or anti-Christian imagery beyond very mild stuff on broadcast tv at all. I don't know about cable. I saw some cartoon based show that cartooned Mohammed in a satyrical way.

I agree, as a religion Islam must be able to tolerate the disrespect of free speech without resorting to violence. That doesn't mean though - you should go out of your way just to insult one religion which is what you seem to call for. When Judaism is attacked with anti-semitic cartoons - people condemn it for what is (peacefully). When Islam is attacked with anti-Islamic cartoons - it's gorified as free speech. When Christianity is attacked with anti-Christian cartoons, no one seems to care much. Condemn it for what it is - peacefully. And condemn violence as an unacceptable means of communication. That's where Islam needs to head.

But if we continue to treat Islam as a special thing...

We don't. You idea is they are getting special treatment if we don't go out of our way to insult the faith, something that also isn't done to any other faith in most cases, at least by the major media. They aren't giving special protection to Mormons just because they don't show Joseph Smith dancing in his Magic Underpants.

You read everything that doesn't denounce Islam like you do as being PC, which isn't true. There is no more respect out there for Islam than there is for Catholicism, it's just Islam is taking a lot of hits these days so the calls go out for people to reasonable about attacking a faith of a usually peaceful 1.6 billion people.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Can't help but notice that no one dares to show images of Mohammed for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares to criticize Islam for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares suggest anything negative about Islam for fear of Muslim violence.

Gee, three for three wrong. That's not easy to do. Well, maybe for it is.

If you've seen Mohammed imagery on tv lemme know what channel.

Actually, I haven't seen anti-Muslim imagery, anti-Jewish imagery or anti-Christian imagery beyond very mild stuff on broadcast tv at all. I don't know about cable. I saw some cartoon based show that cartooned Mohammed in a satyrical way.

I agree, as a religion Islam must be able to tolerate the disrespect of free speech without resorting to violence. That doesn't mean though - you should go out of your way just to insult one religion which is what you seem to call for. When Judaism is attacked with anti-semitic cartoons - people condemn it for what is (peacefully). When Islam is attacked with anti-Islamic cartoons - it's gorified as free speech. When Christianity is attacked with anti-Christian cartoons, no one seems to care much. Condemn it for what it is - peacefully. And condemn violence as an unacceptable means of communication. That's where Islam needs to head.

But if we continue to treat Islam as a special thing...

We don't. You idea is they are getting special treatment if we don't go out of our way to insult the faith, something that also isn't done to any other faith in most cases, at least by the major media. They aren't giving special protection to Mormons just because they don't show Joseph Smith dancing in his Magic Underpants.

You read everything that doesn't denounce Islam like you do as being PC, which isn't true. There is no more respect out there for Islam than there is for Catholicism, it's just Islam is taking a lot of hits these days so the calls go out for people to reasonable about attacking a faith of a usually peaceful 1.6 billion people.

One of the Lifetime movie channels show anti-FLDS docudramas pretty reguarly. Never seen one critical of Islam though.

It isn't respect for Islam, it's fear of violent reactions.

 

[Redfish]

Moment we see this on a US news channel or documentary one you'll have a point.

You won't, it's insulting to Muslims. You won't see Jesus dying naked on the cross, which he did, either. Get over it.

Sorta my point. Islam isn't trying to insert itself into the US, it already has and it's already won.

largely because we have a muslim sympathizer in the white house.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Gee, three for three wrong. That's not easy to do. Well, maybe for it is.

If you've seen Mohammed imagery on tv lemme know what channel.

Actually, I haven't seen anti-Muslim imagery, anti-Jewish imagery or anti-Christian imagery beyond very mild stuff on broadcast tv at all. I don't know about cable. I saw some cartoon based show that cartooned Mohammed in a satyrical way.

I agree, as a religion Islam must be able to tolerate the disrespect of free speech without resorting to violence. That doesn't mean though - you should go out of your way just to insult one religion which is what you seem to call for. When Judaism is attacked with anti-semitic cartoons - people condemn it for what is (peacefully). When Islam is attacked with anti-Islamic cartoons - it's gorified as free speech. When Christianity is attacked with anti-Christian cartoons, no one seems to care much. Condemn it for what it is - peacefully. And condemn violence as an unacceptable means of communication. That's where Islam needs to head.

But if we continue to treat Islam as a special thing...

We don't. You idea is they are getting special treatment if we don't go out of our way to insult the faith, something that also isn't done to any other faith in most cases, at least by the major media. They aren't giving special protection to Mormons just because they don't show Joseph Smith dancing in his Magic Underpants.

You read everything that doesn't denounce Islam like you do as being PC, which isn't true. There is no more respect out there for Islam than there is for Catholicism, it's just Islam is taking a lot of hits these days so the calls go out for people to reasonable about attacking a faith of a usually peaceful 1.6 billion people.

One of the Lifetime movie channels show anti-FLDS docudramas pretty reguarly. Never seen one critical of Islam though.

It isn't respect for Islam, it's fear of violent reactions.

A cult within a cult, yeah, that might be worth a TV movie, but did they intentionally go out of their way to show something that is forbidden, or did they just expose some twisted ideology?

And have they made a lot of films of priests raping children, fundamentalists beating their kids, Jews killing Palestinians? Maybe those all get "special" protection?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Moment we see this on a US news channel or documentary one you'll have a point.

You won't, it's insulting to Muslims. You won't see Jesus dying naked on the cross, which he did, either. Get over it.

Sorta my point. Islam isn't trying to insert itself into the US, it already has and it's already won.

largely because we have a muslim sympathizer in the white house.

Grow up and give it a rest. Aren't you still busy beating on faggots?

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Moment we see this on a US news channel or documentary one you'll have a point.

You won't, it's insulting to Muslims. You won't see Jesus dying naked on the cross, which he did, either. Get over it.

Sorta my point. Islam isn't trying to insert itself into the US, it already has and it's already won.

largely because we have a muslim sympathizer in the white house.

Arabs are noting it also....

Many Arabs and Muslims see the meeting between Obama and Qatar's al-Thani as a gift to Qatar for its continued support of Islamic radical groups across the Middle East, including Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.

Arabs Why is Obama Siding with Supporters of Terrorism

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Moment we see this on a US news channel or documentary one you'll have a point.

You won't, it's insulting to Muslims. You won't see Jesus dying naked on the cross, which he did, either. Get over it.

Sorta my point. Islam isn't trying to insert itself into the US, it already has and it's already won.

largely because we have a muslim sympathizer in the white house.

Arabs are noting it also....

Many Arabs and Muslims see the meeting between Obama and Qatar's al-Thani as a gift to Qatar for its continued support of Islamic radical groups across the Middle East, including Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.

Arabs Why is Obama Siding with Supporters of Terrorism

For a supporter he sure drops a lot of bombs on their heads, or is that just for show?

 

[Coyote]

Can't help but notice that no one dares to show images of Mohammed for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares to criticize Islam for fear of Muslim violence. Can't help but notice no one dares suggest anything negative about Islam for fear of Muslim violence.

Gee, three for three wrong. That's not easy to do. Well, maybe for it is.

If you've seen Mohammed imagery on tv lemme know what channel.

Actually, I haven't seen anti-Muslim imagery, anti-Jewish imagery or anti-Christian imagery beyond very mild stuff on broadcast tv at all. I don't know about cable. I saw some cartoon based show that cartooned Mohammed in a satyrical way.

I agree, as a religion Islam must be able to tolerate the disrespect of free speech without resorting to violence. That doesn't mean though - you should go out of your way just to insult one religion which is what you seem to call for. When Judaism is attacked with anti-semitic cartoons - people condemn it for what is (peacefully). When Islam is attacked with anti-Islamic cartoons - it's gorified as free speech. When Christianity is attacked with anti-Christian cartoons, no one seems to care much. Condemn it for what it is - peacefully. And condemn violence as an unacceptable means of communication. That's where Islam needs to head.

But if we continue to treat Islam as a special thing, refraining from doing what we know upsets them, then they've won. This refraining extends to no other religion. But knowing the kind of rhetoric and angst we heaped on enemy countries during WWII it's hard to understand why we're perfectly willing to insult and trash Japan with the most vile and racist posters and propaganda, but not Islam even ifonly showing their prophet in a neutral sorta way.

I would disagree. First, if you do a google of anti-Islam, anti-Jewish, anti-Christian cartoons - there's a plethora of them out there. Most never ever make it to mainstream media sources. The reason isn't retaliation or fear - it's a sense of common decency and respect for the audience. I can't recall ever seeing anti-semitic cartoons in mainstream news. I do recall seeing anti-Islam cartoons but none showing some of the disgusting and almost pornographic images of Mohammed that we see displayed on the internet.

Second, we DO treat another religion that way - Judaism. Anti-semitic cartoons are heavily critisized and condemned. Not so anti-Islam or anti-Christianity. As a matter of fact, anti-Christian stuff is very often ignored.

The other thing is - media has drastically changed since WWII, it is no longer newspapers and a very limited television broadcasting network. It's everyone - everyone is their own journalist and their own "expert" self proclaimed of course. That makes it easy to spread demonizing and often inaccurate rhetoric. During WWII the anti-Japanese rhetoric lead us to do something that today we consider reprehensible and that our courts finally gave reparations for - the rounding up and interning of American citizens of Japanese descent. I have faith that is an era now gone, I fear that if unchecked - it may not be as gone as I would hope.

What you are suggesting is we fling, non-stop, every disgusting and degrading anti-Islamic material into the public sphere without censor, empathy or responsibility in order to make Muslims realize they can't stop free speech with violence, but that's a two-fold sword. Not only does that hit those who are propose violence, it hits those who are not but feel very offended and feel, quite justifiably, that their faith is under attack in the west even if they do not support the extremes.

So what do you do? Free speech is not and has never been an unlimited right. It's a right that comes with responsibility and the expectations of self-censorship. When that doesn't occur, we - the people, should step in and make our opinions heard. NOT through legislation, outlawing things etc. but through a public condemnation of the material and a public act of support for the people being attacked. We do that with anti-semitic material and anti-semitic acts of vandalism. We should do it for any. One example would be how the Westboro Baptists are treated. They have a legal (and I support it) right to protest and picket, however offensive they might be. But we, the people, including most Christians who consider them an extremist fringe group have found ways to marginalize them. Surrounding the funeral of Matthew Shepherd with people wearing tall angel wings so they couldn't get past or see past. Entire towns parking them out of soldiers funerals so they couldn't find a spot near by. These are the ways people ought to behave when offensive degrading and demonizing acts, material, etc. is on public display. It makes more of a point than any violence or demonizing or legislative banning.

And that brings me to another point. I do agree with you that we can not allow the threat of violence to silence free speech. It's like blackmail or hostage holding - once you start, it never ends. Few countries outside the West truly have and value free speech (and that is not only Islamic countries). We tend to think it's a universal, and it's far far from it, even more of a reason to protect it from state censorship, religious censorship or censorship due to fear. What I don't agree with is your methods.

Yes, Islam should and is open to criticism and yes, it should be treated like any other religion. That means both in protections and in criticisms and in public support for the rights of American Muslims as American citizens and basic human beings when they are under attack. It means violence should never be allowed to silence anyone.

Sweden is an interesting example - based on several news events. After the Charlie Hebdo murders, there was a huge spike in anti-Islamic hate crimes including the firebombing of 3 Mosques as well as anti-Islamic cartoons and demonstrations. The first, obviously, is a criminal act. The latter two - free speech. But many Swedes didn't want to see their culture as one of exclusion - Swedish Muslims were Swedes and Sweden was inclusive. They showed their support by "flower bombing" the damaged Mosques and similar things. That is one example of how religiously offensive free speech can work and should work, when a society decides this is not the kind of society they want to be.

If we can't rebutt, criticize, and disagree with Islam then it's basicaly become the defacto system of government and law for whatever country refuses to oppose it. As here in the US.

I don't think I understand what you mean?

I don't wanna 'go out of our way to be dicks to people.' But if they're to be a respected religion, they need to accept not everyone agrees with them, and others are going to deliberately insult and be dicks. When you claim your imaginary friend from childhood is a real being, that's what happens.

You're kind of saying, in your OP, that you do want us to go out of our way (and over the top) to be dicks to people. I do agree however - that all religions should be treated equally in regards to free speech and that there are civilized ways to protest truly offensive material - whether it's through community, courts, or articles.

 

[Coyote]

Gee, three for three wrong. That's not easy to do. Well, maybe for it is.

If you've seen Mohammed imagery on tv lemme know what channel.

Actually, I haven't seen anti-Muslim imagery, anti-Jewish imagery or anti-Christian imagery beyond very mild stuff on broadcast tv at all. I don't know about cable. I saw some cartoon based show that cartooned Mohammed in a satyrical way.

I agree, as a religion Islam must be able to tolerate the disrespect of free speech without resorting to violence. That doesn't mean though - you should go out of your way just to insult one religion which is what you seem to call for. When Judaism is attacked with anti-semitic cartoons - people condemn it for what is (peacefully). When Islam is attacked with anti-Islamic cartoons - it's gorified as free speech. When Christianity is attacked with anti-Christian cartoons, no one seems to care much. Condemn it for what it is - peacefully. And condemn violence as an unacceptable means of communication. That's where Islam needs to head.

But if we continue to treat Islam as a special thing...

We don't. You idea is they are getting special treatment if we don't go out of our way to insult the faith, something that also isn't done to any other faith in most cases, at least by the major media. They aren't giving special protection to Mormons just because they don't show Joseph Smith dancing in his Magic Underpants.

You read everything that doesn't denounce Islam like you do as being PC, which isn't true. There is no more respect out there for Islam than there is for Catholicism, it's just Islam is taking a lot of hits these days so the calls go out for people to reasonable about attacking a faith of a usually peaceful 1.6 billion people.

One of the Lifetime movie channels show anti-FLDS docudramas pretty reguarly. Never seen one critical of Islam though.

It isn't respect for Islam, it's fear of violent reactions.

Have you ever seen anti-Jewish shows? I'm willing to bet not because the charge of anti-semitism carries a lot of weight in the courts of public opinion and lobby groups. I'm willing to bet it is similar for shows showing racist imagery. Both have very strong political and public advocates - no one wants to be labeled racist or anti-semite. And while physical violence isn't likely, legal actions are, and public boycotts or condemnation with loss of viewership and financial support are very real and create the same kind of PC walking on eggs that you say is with Islam. Groups like the LDS or Muslims don't have that kind or advocacy, they are simply not mainstream enough. LDS is considered comically weird and Islam is considered evil.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

So all we Jews have to do is become like ISIS and Muslims and start lopping heads off to get people to quit being anti-semitic? Your concern over the feelings of Muslims is admirable, but it seems as though you would suggest we refrain from disrespecting them for fear of a violent reaction. But no one worries about dissing Jews or Christians for that same reaction. Just Muslims.

The anti-Jew/Christian cartoons are from individuals and hate sites, not media or government. CNN isn't worrying about this upcoming Jesus documentary, including depictions of Jesus. Yet I doubt they'd have one about Mohammed with images of him.

Islam enjoys special treatment and considerations solely because Muslims have a proven history of becomming violent. So should every religion adopt violence to be respected as Islam is, or should we treat Islam like any other religion whether they get violent or not?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

So all we Jews have to do is become like ISIS and Muslims and start lopping heads off to get people to quit being anti-semitic?

No, end Israel, and then go live in all other nations like the rest of humanity. That will take care of most of it.

 

[Coyote]

So all we Jews have to do is become like ISIS and Muslims and start lopping heads off to get people to quit being anti-semitic? Your concern over the feelings of Muslims is admirable, but it seems as though you would suggest we refrain from disrespecting them for fear of a violent reaction. But no one worries about dissing Jews or Christians for that same reaction. Just Muslims.

No. I said - repeatedly - that there are civilized ways of dealing with offensive material, which is how Jews handle it and Muslims in the west, for the most part - the courts, the media, peaceful protests, supporting the rights and dignity of those who are under attack for their beliefs. You are also wrong about no one worrying about "dissing Jews". How often do anti-semitic cartoons appear in the mainstream media? I'm willing to venture it is as scarce as anti-Islamic cartoons. It could be self-censorship, a respect for the audience or it could be fear of reprisals - either legal/ecomic or threats of violence. I think it's more likely the former.

It doesn't matter what religion it is. There are non-violent ways because we are a nation that allows free speech both pro and anti. It shouldn't be shut down - either through legislation to ban certain expressions or threats of violence.

I did not say we refrain - but that we treat all religions equally. And you are wrong about "no one worrying about disrespecting Judaism". People are as reluctant to attack Judaism as a faith as they are Islam. Christianity is the only one that people have a real go at without much public censor.

The anti-Jew/Christian cartoons are from individuals and hate sites, not media or government. CNN isn't worrying about this upcoming Jesus documentary, including depictions of Jesus. Yet I doubt they'd have one about Mohammed with images of him.

Agree...and so are most of the anti-Muslim cartoons I think. I'm not familiar with the upcoming Jesus documentary but as far as I know, Christianity has no prohibitions against depictions of Jesus.

Interesting sidetrack on depictions of Mohammed - prohibitions are a relatively recent phenomenum. If you're talking about just plain, neutral depictions - Muslims need to get a grip.

Islam enjoys special treatment and considerations solely because Muslims have a proven history of becomming violent. So should every religion adopt violence to be respected as Islam is, or should we treat Islam like any other religion whether they get violent or not?

Does Islam get any more special treatment than Judaism?

If you truly want them all to be treated equally - then why just Islam? Let's treat then all the way we do Christianity.

 

[Coyote]

So all we Jews have to do is become like ISIS and Muslims and start lopping heads off to get people to quit being anti-semitic?

No, end Israel, and then go live in all other nations like the rest of humanity. That will take care of most of it.

Anti-semitism long pre-dated Israel.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

So all we Jews have to do is become like ISIS and Muslims and start lopping heads off to get people to quit being anti-semitic?

No, end Israel, and then go live in all other nations like the rest of humanity. That will take care of most of it.

Anti-semitism long pre-dated Israel.

Yes, but it's now much worse because of it.

 

[Coyote]

So all we Jews have to do is become like ISIS and Muslims and start lopping heads off to get people to quit being anti-semitic?

No, end Israel, and then go live in all other nations like the rest of humanity. That will take care of most of it.

Anti-semitism long pre-dated Israel.

Yes, but it's now much worse because of it.

I'm not sure. There is probably a portion of people who's feelings about Jews in general are influenced by what's going on in the ME but I suspect there is a significant portion who's previously dormant feelings of anti-semitism is "vindicated" by what's going on there. Anti-semitism as a long long history and it's never completely gone away.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

So all we Jews have to do is become like ISIS and Muslims and start lopping heads off to get people to quit being anti-semitic?

No, end Israel, and then go live in all other nations like the rest of humanity. That will take care of most of it.

Anti-semitism long pre-dated Israel.

Yes, but it's now much worse because of it.

I'm not sure. There is probably a portion of people who's feelings about Jews in general are influenced by what's going on in the ME but I suspect there is a significant portion who's previously dormant feelings of anti-semitism is "vindicated" by what's going on there. Anti-semitism as a long long history and it's never completely gone away.

The number one complaint against the Jews worldwide, Israel. Normal antisemitism, Banking, Media Control, never paying retail, anything Hitler came up with, doesn't even make a close second.