Living with a Chevrolet Volt

[eots]

When we took delivery of my wife's 2012 Chevrolet Volt back in March, I figured we'd be putting gas in it every 6 weeks or so.

Now, here we are 8-1/2 months and 8,930 miles later and I'm refueling it for the first time. Spent $24.50 for 6.6 gallons of premium (tank is 9.3 gallons, so there was still about 2.7 gallons left)

When I did my first calculations to see whether it made more sense to lease the Volt or go with our second or third choice vehicles (2012 Chevrolet Equinox or 2013 Chevrolet Malibu) I factored in the idea that the first 35 miles would be electrically driven, then I added in gas driven miles. What I did not factor in is that since most of my wife's trips are less than 20 miles, she would be returning home and plugging back in, so by the time she needed to make another trip, she would be back at or near a full charge.

As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas. So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months. That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas. That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.

It be cool to drop one of these bad boys in her

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxyH2WUKwPw]1969 427 corvette motor - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Foxfyre]

Well no offense to drivers of Chevy Volts because it certainly isn't THEIR fault, but I resent my tax dollars subsidiing a huge chunk of the cost of them.

I have no problem with research into electric cars and no problem with car manufacturers making and marketing them. But I absolutely want them to be marketed and sold based on their actual cost, and not at the expense of the taxpayer.

Again considering that 7 cent cost per mile for electric operation versus 11 cents per mile cost for gasoline operation--this based on a car getting 32 mpg--it would be easy to conclude that there is a 50% or better savings in green energy. Not so, at least in most cases, because unless the electricity is produced via nuclear plants or natural gas--and most isn't--it takes a lot of carbon based energy to make the electricity.

So please. While electric power may indeed be the car of the future and certainly there is nothing wrong with it, let's don't kid ourselves that electric powered vehicles are somehow more economical or substantially more green than gasoline powered vehicles.

 

[martinjlm]

Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs.
Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.

The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile. And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on gasoline is about 11 cents per mile. At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.

I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and, because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road. And it costs a hell of a lot less. In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.

Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....

• Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000. This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break. Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
• 2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break. Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle. Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives. These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
• Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy: also expired in 2010. Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle. At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.

For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.

So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?

 

[percysunshine]

A tax credit, any tax credit, is a promise to tax you in the future on something you buy today.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs.
Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.

The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile. And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on gasoline is about 11 cents per mile. At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.

I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and, because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road. And it costs a hell of a lot less. In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.

Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....

• Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000. This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break. Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
• 2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break. Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle. Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives. These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
• Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy: also expired in 2010. Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle. At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.

For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.

So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?

I don't know whether your information is accurate or not. But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer. True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening. At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.

It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k. So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?

 

[Warrior102]

I am an EMT volunteer
I wouldn't carve into one of those fuckers with a saw to pull a body out in an accident if you paid me.
I have a chance of getting 400V up the ass to save a life for Obama? Fuck em.

 

[Sunni Man]

Plus the surviving accident victims in a rolled over Volt will most likely be covered in battery acid.

Being ate up alive by acid isn't a pleasant way to die.

The eyes would be the first thing to be burned out.

 

[Jarlaxle]

How much longer do you figure an electric motor will last than a reciprocating piston engine (an antique design from the 1880s)?

Considering that many piston engines run perfectly fine while the cars they are in fall apart...irrelevant!

 

[Jarlaxle]

I am an EMT volunteer
I wouldn't carve into one of those fuckers with a saw to pull a body out in an accident if you paid me.
I have a chance of getting 400V up the ass to save a life for Obama? Fuck em.

Note: The Prius battery runs at higher voltage than my MIG welder.

 

[martinjlm]

Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs.
Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.

The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile. And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on gasoline is about 11 cents per mile. At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.

I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and, because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road. And it costs a hell of a lot less. In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.

Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....

• Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000. This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break. Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
• 2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break. Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle. Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives. These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
• Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy: also expired in 2010. Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle. At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.

For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.

So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?

I don't know whether your information is accurate or not. But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer. True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening. At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.

It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k. So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?

With regards to whether or not my info is accurate or not, I could paste all kinds of government legal mumbo jumbo that defines the incentives but a) that would put you to sleep and b) my band is playing at a bar so I have limited time/ net access. As for treasury money.....that would apply to GM as a company, not just Volt as a vehicle. So arguably, it would apply to every pickup track, Corvette, Cruze, and Buick Regal produced since the bankruptcy.

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....

• Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000. This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break. Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
• 2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break. Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle. Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives. These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
• Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy: also expired in 2010. Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle. At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.

For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.

So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?

I don't know whether your information is accurate or not. But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer. True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening. At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.

It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k. So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?

With regards to whether or not my info is accurate or not, I could paste all kinds of government legal limbo jumbo that defines the incentives but a) that would put you to sleep and b) my band is playing at a bar so I have limited time/ net access. As for treasury money.....that would apply to GM as a company, not just Volt as a vehicle.

Well work before USMB always, and you're right that you have to plow through a jumble of legaleze to get any kind of accurate numbers--that would probably be beyond the skill or abilityof either of us to research--but I believe the fact is that more than a billion in direct federal subsidies have gone specificially for the Volt--the actual federal outlay to GM far exceeds that--but still a billion is a huge amount for fewer than 15,000 Volts sold in 2012 thus far.

Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters

 

[Synthaholic]

2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).

How many years would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?

You are assuming all things being equal.

Why?

 

[Synthaholic]

That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED. We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months. With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.

Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.

Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL

Wingy is the kind of dim-wit who'd call 911 to get the phone number for 'information.'


Notice that he was unable to find any error in my post, so immediately leapt to some sort of smear.

There may not be any errors in your post but it's certainly not representative. Not everyone lives in the NY area, using ConED. I think the electricity rate in Tennessee is around 7 cents. So now how much, smarty?

 

[Synthaholic]

Well no offense to drivers of Chevy Volts because it certainly isn't THEIR fault, but I resent my tax dollars subsidiing a huge chunk of the cost of them.

I have no problem with research into electric cars and no problem with car manufacturers making and marketing them. But I absolutely want them to be marketed and sold based on their actual cost, and not at the expense of the taxpayer.

Again considering that 7 cent cost per mile for electric operation versus 11 cents per mile cost for gasoline operation--this based on a car getting 32 mpg--it would be easy to conclude that there is a 50% or better savings in green energy. Not so, at least in most cases, because unless the electricity is produced via nuclear plants or natural gas--and most isn't--it takes a lot of carbon based energy to make the electricity.

Did you resent it when Bush used your tax dollars to set up the Office Of Faith-Based Initiatives also, sweetie?

So please. While electric power may indeed be the car of the future and certainly there is nothing wrong with it, let's don't kid ourselves that electric powered vehicles are somehow more economical or substantially more green than gasoline powered vehicles.

Now you're talking out your ass.

 

[Politico]

As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas. So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months. That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas. That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.

My car gets 30 miles per gallon. At $3.30 per last fill up that's 11 cents per mile. I'll stick with what I have.

 

[Synthaholic]

As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas. So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months. That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas. That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.

My car gets 30 miles per gallon. At $3.30 per last fill up that's 11 cents per mile. I'll stick with what I have.

How much per mile at $4.00? $4.50? Or do you believe gas prices will always stay where they are despite all evidence to the contrary?

 

[Politico]

What are you rambling about Leftytoon? In order for my per mile to be $3.86 gas would have to be $115 a gallon. $4 would be a couple of cents. If you gotta quibble over that you can't afford a car.

 

[martinjlm]

I don't know whether your information is accurate or not. But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer. True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening. At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.

It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k. So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?

With regards to whether or not my info is accurate or not, I could paste all kinds of government legal limbo jumbo that defines the incentives but a) that would put you to sleep and b) my band is playing at a bar so I have limited time/ net access. As for treasury money.....that would apply to GM as a company, not just Volt as a vehicle.

Well work before USMB always, and you're right that you have to plow through a jumble of legaleze to get any kind of accurate numbers--that would probably be beyond the skill or abilityof either of us to research

Not beyond my skillset. It's part of my day job (last night was my stress-reliever bar band gig)

--but I believe the fact is that more than a billion in direct federal subsidies have gone specificially for the Volt--the actual federal outlay to GM far exceeds that--but still a billion is a huge amount for fewer than 15,000 Volts sold in 2012 thus far.

Very provable that this is ENTIRELY false. None of the bailout money was targeted to any specific vehicle programs. In fact, when Pres. Obama's Automotive Task Force first met with GM, one of their early bullet points was "stop working on Fuel Cells and Electric Vehicles. It's costing too much". Then they drove a Volt prototype and said "okay,, we get it. Do what you think makes sense". If you read Steve Rattner's book "Overhaul" for info on this topic you'll get the whole behind the scenes story. Rattner was the head of the Automotive Task Force. Bottom line....the incentives offered to Volt buyers / lessees is no different than those offered to other electric vehicle and plug-in hybrid vehicle buyers and lesses. It just so happens that Nissan Leaf (which people are avoiding in droves) and Chevrolet Volt are the first vehicles to qualify for the incentives. Trust me, there are many more coming.

Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters

The Reuters story was debunked for faulty math and accounting almost before the ink dried. Applying the full burden of R&D costs only to those vehicles already built and sold is ludicrous at best, incompetent at worst. At the very least they could have spent a couple thousand bucks for an industry forecast of how many vehicles (Volts and others) would be built from technologies included in the R&D and spread the cost across all of them. Again, that is one of the things I do in my everyday job as an automotive analyst.

Thing is, I know the guy who wrote the original story (only in passing. We would recognize each other at press events) and he really is better than that crap report he put out. I'm occasionally tempted to ask him "what was that all about?", but I don't know him THAT well.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well no offense to drivers of Chevy Volts because it certainly isn't THEIR fault, but I resent my tax dollars subsidiing a huge chunk of the cost of them.

I have no problem with research into electric cars and no problem with car manufacturers making and marketing them. But I absolutely want them to be marketed and sold based on their actual cost, and not at the expense of the taxpayer.

Again considering that 7 cent cost per mile for electric operation versus 11 cents per mile cost for gasoline operation--this based on a car getting 32 mpg--it would be easy to conclude that there is a 50% or better savings in green energy. Not so, at least in most cases, because unless the electricity is produced via nuclear plants or natural gas--and most isn't--it takes a lot of carbon based energy to make the electricity.

Did you resent it when Bush used your tax dollars to set up the Office Of Faith-Based Initiatives also, sweetie?

So please. While electric power may indeed be the car of the future and certainly there is nothing wrong with it, let's don't kid ourselves that electric powered vehicles are somehow more economical or substantially more green than gasoline powered vehicles.

Now you're talking out your ass.

What Bush or anybody else did or what I thought was a good thing or not in any previous or even this administration has absolutely nothing to do with subsidizing a Chevy Volt. Perhaps we could skip the liberal tactic of bait and switch for just this one thread, please?

And you are welcome to dispute my opinion with your own facts and figures. Otherwise I just assume you are typing out the most hateful and offensive comments you can think of to avoid admitting you don't know anything about the subject.

 

[martinjlm]

Meant to reply to the EPA comment earlier, but let the moment get away from me......

1. Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But that’s for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.

According to these stickers, the EPA thinks the electric MPG equivalent is 94 for the 2012 (my wife's car) and 98 for the 2013, not the 65 quoted by PoliticalChic. And the electric range is variable by temperature and driving habits. I've been in my wife's car when it as reported as much as 45 miles and as little as 30 miles available at full charge. I would expect 25 would be on a very cold day. By the way, we're in Detroit. Hardly a tropical climate.