Libertarianism

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Quantum Windbag, Jun 22, 2013.

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  1. Derideo_Te
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    Derideo_Te Je Suis Charlie

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    Government is the tool that people use to form a well-ordered society. Without government to "enforce societal mores and standards" there would be no fire fighters. There would be no roads or highways. There would be no currency. There would be no doctors, hospitals or pharmacies. There would be no citizenship, borders or passports. There would be no "rights" either since the means to protect those rights requires a functioning legal system which is based entirely upon "societal mores and standards". You stated that Libertarians "reject the notion that government should run society" which means that you are advocating anarchy instead.
     
  2. dblack
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    dblack Gold Member

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    I think we're in agreement that this is the view libertarians reject. Government is necessary to facilitate society, to maintain and enforce laws that make it possible for us to get along in a pluralistic community. But it's not necessary for government to dictate what form that society takes. The details of the kind of society we create can, and should in the libertarian view, be left up to the voluntary interaction of free people, and not a matter of coercive laws.

    Well, I disagree. I don't think people are helpless to solve their own problems via voluntary cooperation. I could cite examples (my own neighborhood, in PA, relies on volunteer firefighters) but the point is largely ideological.

    Libertarians don't reject a functioning legal system. But we believe the purpose and function of that legal system should be to protect our freedoms - not as a tool to bully people in the name of 'society mores and standards'.

    Well, then you're simply redefining the term, which makes meaningful conversation difficult. The idea that government should be limited to protecting our rights, rather than enforcing conformity for conformity's sake, is a well-established viewpoint. And while you may disagree with it, it's not anarchy by any commonly used definition.
     
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  3. Quantum Windbag
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    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

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    I cannot think of a better argument against government than the one you just gave. I have never met anyone that lived in a well ordered society that wanted to go back to one because the authorization governments always end up repressing its subjects.
     
  4. Circe
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    Circe Silver Member

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    XXXXXXX

    The problem is not that it wouldn't work if it were done, the problem is that the government isn't actually DOING it. Crazies regularly get assault rifles no matter how psychotic they are: the Batman movie shooter, Adam Lanza, the Korean who shot up Virginia Tech. They were all known madmen, but had no problems getting guns. Certainly the process doesn't work if no one bothers to work it.
     
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  5. FA_Q2
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    FA_Q2 Gold Member

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    Obviously you have not bothered to read the last 22 pages that point out everything you just claimed as entirely false. Please, get a handle on the thread before throwing out wild claims and empty attacks.
     
  6. dblack
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    dblack Gold Member

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    One thing worth keeping in mind, regarding the overall political situation: even if our nation does move toward a more libertarian government, very few of the hardcore libertarian aspirations will be accomplished - even if we elect a purebred libertarian president. We won't suddenly abolish 95% of the laws on the books, taxes won't go away entirely and roads won't suddenly be sold to private interests.

    Instead, we'd see a gradual transition to a freer society, with plenty of opportunity for deliberation and discussion of the particulars. I have a hard time viewing that as a bad thing.
     
  7. thanatos144
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    thanatos144 Gold Member

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    why would the country want to move towards a form of government that can't make up its own damn mind?
     
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  8. dblack
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    dblack Gold Member

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    A form of government doesn't have a mind. People do, and they disagree. Libertarianism, as an ideology, is far, far, more cohesive and clear than anything Republicans and Democrats have to offer. We couldn't even have these kinds of discussions concerning the mainstream parties because don't dare offer any kind of clear vision of where they want to take things.
     
  9. midcan5
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    midcan5 liberal / progressive

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    It's hard for me to understand what loss of freedom occurred since libertarianism became the latest newfangled panacea for all that ails us. Maybe it is me, but I feel as free as a bird, only I wish I could fly too.

    I had never heard libertarianism called 'vulgar' but the comments below are interesting. I also include a comment from our first president which is telling. As for the imaginary free market, check this site out. See Japan for instance, especially if you buy Japanese cars. 2013 National Trade Estimate Report on Foreign Trade Barriers | Office of the United States Trade Representative

    "Vulgar libertarian apologists for capitalism use the term "free market" in an equivocal sense: they seem to have trouble remembering, from one moment to the next, whether they’re defending actually existing capitalism or free market principles."

    Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism: Vulgar Libertarianism Watch, Part 1

    "The ideal "free market" society of such people, it seems, is simply actually existing capitalism, minus the regulatory and welfare state: a hyper-thyroidal version of nineteenth century robber baron capitalism, perhaps; or better yet, a society "reformed" by the likes of Pinochet, the Dionysius to whom Milton Friedman and the Chicago Boys played Aristotle." link above

    and this too: Not Even a Bourgeois Freedom: Liberty of Contract in John Roberts?s America ? Crooked Timber


    "The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech
     
  10. thanatos144
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    thanatos144 Gold Member

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    let me make this easy for you you can't have everything selfish behavior is not a good quality a government is for all the people not just the burnouts.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
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