Liberal arguments for supporting gun ownership rights

[Chris]

Gun ownership and rates of deaths involving guns​

"Several studies have sought to examine the potential links between rates of gun ownership and rates of gun-related homicide and suicide within various jurisdictions around the world.[60][61] Martin Killias initially concluded that there was a correlation between more guns and more victims of suicide and homicide, and that there was some reason to think that there was a causal relation, although the evidence for the latter was inconclusive.[62] Killias' most extensive study, covering 21 countries, showed that there was a correlation between guns in the home and rates of gun-related suicide as well as gun-related homicide of women and gun-related assaults against women. The study however also revealed that there was no correlation between gun ownership and similar crimes against men, and no statistically significant correlation between gun ownership and total suicide or homicide rates (the latter may in Killias' view be due to the relatively low proportion of gun-related deaths overall).[63] Similarly, a study by Rich et al on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method - namely leaping.[64] Another example to that effect would be Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world[65] while private firearm ownership is almost non-existent. On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."


Link to Gun politics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It should be noted that Martin Killias is a gun control supporter.


Edit: Leaving the links in place is a cool feature of this new layout...I like it.

Nice try, but the links between states with loose gun laws and murders, suicides, and violent crime is pretty obvious...

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002891.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/12/05/ST2008120500767.html

 

[Missourian]

Nice try, but the links between states with loose gun laws and murders, suicides, and violent crime is pretty obvious...

Killias thought so too, unfortunately the findings of his study proved him (and you) wrong.


But I certainly don't expect you to admit it. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you refuse to be swayed by facts or scientific studies.

"Obstinacy and vehemency in opinion are the surest proofs of stupidity."
------------------- Bernard Barton​

 

[Chris]

Nice try, but the links between states with loose gun laws and murders, suicides, and violent crime is pretty obvious...

Killias thought so too, unfortunately the findings of his study proved him (and you) wrong.


But I certainly don't expect you to admit it. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you refuse to be swayed by facts or scientific studies.

"Obstinacy and vehemency in opinion are the surest proofs of stupidity."
------------------- Bernard Barton​

The facts are obvious and irrefutable. States that require local background checks have fewer murders, suicides, and violent crime.

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

Report Links State Gun Laws To Rates of Slayings, Trafficking - washingtonpost.com

Local Background Checks, Fewer Gun Deaths

Nevada leads in gun deaths, ownership | NevadaAppeal.com

 

[Missourian]

[
The facts are obvious and irrefutable. States that require local background checks have fewer murders, suicides, and violent crime.

It is obviously you don't know what irrefutable means beacause this obviously refutes your theory.

Gun ownership and rates of deaths involving guns​

"The study however also revealed that there was no correlation between gun ownership and similar crimes against men, and no statistically significant correlation between gun ownership and total suicide or homicide rates (the latter may in Killias' view be due to the relatively low proportion of gun-related deaths overall).[63] Similarly, a study by Rich et al on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method - namely leaping."


What part of "No statistically significant correlation" is unclear to you?

 

[Chris]

The Ten States With the Highest Rates of Firearm Violence

Rank
State
Total Number of Firearm Deaths 2004
Crude Firearm Death Rate 2004

1 Louisiana
902
20.01

2 Alaska
117
17.79

3 Nevada
392
16.8

4
Mississippi
471
16.24

5
Arizona
897
15.63

6
New Mexico
389
15.19

7
Alabama
679
15

8
Arkansas
406
14.76

9
Tennessee
869
14.79

10
West Virginia
253
13.96

The Ten States With the Lowest Rates of Firearm Violence

Rank
State
Total Number of Firearm Deaths 2004
Firearm Deaths Crude Rate 2004
1
Massachusetts
206
3.22

2
Hawaii
41
3.25

3
Rhode Island
41
3.8

4
New York
951
4.93
5
Connecticut
173
4.94

6
New Jersey
454
5.23

7
New Hampshire
69
5.31

8
Iowa
195
6.6

9
Nebraska
119
6.81

10
Minnesota
363
7.12

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

 

[Chris]

Thanks for bringing up M. Killias..

International correlations between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide -- Killias 148 (10): 1721 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal

Larger studies are needed to examine more closely possible confounding factors such as the national tendency toward violent solutions, and more information on the type and availability of guns will be helpful in future studies. Nevertheless, the correlations detected in this study suggest that the presence of a gun in the home increases the likelihood of homicide or suicide.

 

[Chris]

Criminologist Martin Killias says army and military guns, weapons, rifles kill 300 people every year - swissinfo

Killias said it was also alarming that domestic murder happens so frequently – every second murder or attempted murder in Switzerland occurs within the family circle.

"It is undeniable that keeping weapons at home causes major problems," he said, adding that threats involving army weapons should not be forgotten.

"Do we want to continue accepting the deaths of almost 300 people a year by pistols, rifles and carbines to perpetuate a tradition which allegedly strengthens the will to defend oneself?"

 

[Harry Dresden]

this stat says your stat is wrong Chris.....


StateMaster - Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 (most recent) by state

Thanks for proving my point.

All the top gun death states are states with loose gun laws.

Alaska: 20
Louisiana: 19.5
Wyoming: 18.8
Arizona: 18
Nevada: 17.3
Mississippi: 17.3
New Mexico: 16.6
Arkansas: 16.3
Alabama: 16.2

D.C. is not a state, but a city with a lot of urban poverty, and the number of murders there has dropped by more than half in the last 15 years.

Once again thanks for posting stats that prove my point.

Chris you are a dick....this whole 500 post thingy you kept on saying that Nevada is the no. 1 state for gun deaths,all of us were telling you that your stats are wrong,yet you kept up this stat about Nevada,i just proved your fucking stats mean nothing,there are stats that will prove this stat that i just posted is wrong,your a fucking fraud Chris,someone who is going to argue for the sake of arguing,why dont you just admit to us all you are an anti-gun dipshit trying to masquerade as a pro-gun guy who just wants strict control over them,your a phony Chris,no pro-gun person would want the powers that be to have the control that you seek over guns,ESPECIALLY using the bullshit,exaggerated stats you keep using,you are getting old and tired,why this has gone on this long is beyond me.....i have better things to do than argue with a fucking phony....

 

[Chris]

this stat says your stat is wrong Chris.....


StateMaster - Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 (most recent) by state

Thanks for proving my point.

All the top gun death states are states with loose gun laws.

Alaska: 20
Louisiana: 19.5
Wyoming: 18.8
Arizona: 18
Nevada: 17.3
Mississippi: 17.3
New Mexico: 16.6
Arkansas: 16.3
Alabama: 16.2

D.C. is not a state, but a city with a lot of urban poverty, and the number of murders there has dropped by more than half in the last 15 years.

Once again thanks for posting stats that prove my point.

Chris you are a dick....this whole 500 post thingy you kept on saying that Nevada is the no. 1 state for gun deaths,all of us were telling you that your stats are wrong,yet you kept up this stat about Nevada,i just proved your fucking stats mean nothing,there are stats that will prove this stat that i just posted is wrong,your a fucking fraud Chris,someone who is going to argue for the sake of arguing,why dont you just admit to us all you are an anti-gun dipshit trying to masquerade as a pro-gun guy who just wants strict control over them,your a phony Chris,no pro-gun person would want the powers that be to have the control that you seek over guns,ESPECIALLY using the bullshit,exaggerated stats you keep using,you are getting old and tired,why this has gone on this long is beyond me.....i have better things to do than argue with a fucking phony....

Have you been drinking? I never claimed to be pro gun.

The statistics show that local background checks are an effective means of lowering murders, suicides, and violent crime without interferring with honest people's rights to own guns. That's it. Pretty simple really.

 

[Missourian]

Chris you are a dick....this whole 500 post thingy you kept on saying that Nevada is the no. 1 state for gun deaths,all of us were telling you that your stats are wrong,yet you kept up this stat about Nevada,i just proved your fucking stats mean nothing,there are stats that will prove this stat that i just posted is wrong,your a fucking fraud Chris,someone who is going to argue for the sake of arguing,why dont you just admit to us all you are an anti-gun dipshit trying to masquerade as a pro-gun guy who just wants strict control over them,your a phony Chris,no pro-gun person would want the powers that be to have the control that you seek over guns,ESPECIALLY using the bullshit,exaggerated stats you keep using,you are getting old and tired,why this has gone on this long is beyond me.....i have better things to do than argue with a fucking phony....

Chris you are a dick....this whole 500 post thingy you kept on saying that Nevada is the no. 1 state for gun deaths,all of us were telling you that your stats are wrong,yet you kept up this stat about Nevada,i just proved your fucking stats mean nothing,there are stats that will prove this stat that i just posted is wrong,your a fucking fraud Chris,someone who is going to argue for the sake of arguing,why dont you just admit to us all you are an anti-gun dipshit trying to masquerade as a pro-gun guy who just wants strict control over them,your a phony Chris,no pro-gun person would want the powers that be to have the control that you seek over guns,ESPECIALLY using the bullshit,exaggerated stats you keep using,you are getting old and tired,why this has gone on this long is beyond me.....i have better things to do than argue with a fucking phony....

Trimmed that down to bare bones for ya Harry.

 

[Missourian]

Thanks for bringing up M. Killias..

International correlations between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide -- Killias 148 (10): 1721 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal

Larger studies are needed to examine more closely possible confounding factors such as the national tendency toward violent solutions, and more information on the type and availability of guns will be helpful in future studies. Nevertheless, the correlations detected in this study suggest that the presence of a gun in the home increases the likelihood of homicide or suicide.

Glad YOU brought that up. He did a larger study...21 countries.

Here are the results:

Gun ownership and rates of deaths involving guns​

"Several studies have sought to examine the potential links between rates of gun ownership and rates of gun-related homicide and suicide within various jurisdictions around the world.[60][61] Martin Killias initially concluded that there was a correlation between more guns and more victims of suicide and homicide, and that there was some reason to think that there was a causal relation, although the evidence for the latter was inconclusive.[62] Killias' most extensive study, covering 21 countries, showed that there was a correlation between guns in the home and rates of gun-related suicide as well as gun-related homicide of women and gun-related assaults against women. The study however also revealed that there was no correlation between gun ownership and similar crimes against men, and no statistically significant correlation between gun ownership and total suicide or homicide rates (the latter may in Killias' view be due to the relatively low proportion of gun-related deaths overall).[63] Similarly, a study by Rich et al on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method - namely leaping.[64] Another example to that effect would be Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world[65] while private firearm ownership is almost non-existent. On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."


Link to Gun politics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Chris]

Chris you are a dick....this whole 500 post thingy you kept on saying that Nevada is the no. 1 state for gun deaths,all of us were telling you that your stats are wrong,yet you kept up this stat about Nevada,i just proved your fucking stats mean nothing,there are stats that will prove this stat that i just posted is wrong,your a fucking fraud Chris,someone who is going to argue for the sake of arguing,why dont you just admit to us all you are an anti-gun dipshit trying to masquerade as a pro-gun guy who just wants strict control over them,your a phony Chris,no pro-gun person would want the powers that be to have the control that you seek over guns,ESPECIALLY using the bullshit,exaggerated stats you keep using,you are getting old and tired,why this has gone on this long is beyond me.....i have better things to do than argue with a fucking phony....

Trimmed that down to bare bones for ya Harry.

Insulting people you don't know on a message board is pretty pathetic isn't it?

Death by the Barrel | Harvard Magazine

 

[Missourian]

Chris you are a dick....this whole 500 post thingy you kept on saying that Nevada is the no. 1 state for gun deaths,all of us were telling you that your stats are wrong,yet you kept up this stat about Nevada,i just proved your fucking stats mean nothing,there are stats that will prove this stat that i just posted is wrong,your a fucking fraud Chris,someone who is going to argue for the sake of arguing,why dont you just admit to us all you are an anti-gun dipshit trying to masquerade as a pro-gun guy who just wants strict control over them,your a phony Chris,no pro-gun person would want the powers that be to have the control that you seek over guns,ESPECIALLY using the bullshit,exaggerated stats you keep using,you are getting old and tired,why this has gone on this long is beyond me.....i have better things to do than argue with a fucking phony....

Trimmed that down to bare bones for ya Harry.

Insulting people you don't know on a message board is pretty pathetic isn't it?

Death by the Barrel | Harvard Magazine

Have you been drinking? *I* didn't insult you.

 

[Chris]

From your own post....

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."

 

[Missourian]

From your own post....

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."

And there is your problem Chris.


"Similarly, a study by Rich et al on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method - namely leaping.[64] Another example to that effect would be Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world[65] while private firearm ownership is almost non-existent.

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."


The words in red bold means it's a fact, the words in blue bold indicate an opinion.

Someday you'll learn the difference.

 

[Chris]

From your own post....

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."

And there is your problem Chris.


"Similarly, a study by Rich et al on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method - namely leaping.[64] Another example to that effect would be Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world[65] while private firearm ownership is almost non-existent.

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."


The words in red bold means it's a fact, the words in blue bold indicate an opinion.

Someday you'll learn the difference.

States with local background checks have fewer murders, suicides, and violent crime.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

From your own post....

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."

And there is your problem Chris.


"Similarly, a study by Rich et al on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method - namely leaping.[64] Another example to that effect would be Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world[65] while private firearm ownership is almost non-existent.

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."


The words in red bold means it's a fact, the words in blue bold indicate an opinion.

Someday you'll learn the difference.

States with local background checks have fewer murders, suicides, and violent crime.

Golly... now would these be states which also have "Right to carry" laws which protect the rights of the individual to carry a concealed weapon?

Hmm.... So given that such is clearly the case... what pray tell do ya suppose stands as the reason for those stats? Is it the likelihood that a criminal will be facing his own mortality when he chooses to violently offend an armed citizen? Or is it the background check?

Now THINK HARD here Chris... and I suggest ya set your 'feelings' aside...

 

[Chris]

And there is your problem Chris.


"Similarly, a study by Rich et al on suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and psychiatric patients from San Diego reached the conclusion that increased gun restrictions, while reducing suicide-by-gun, resulted in no net decline in suicides, because of substitution of another method - namely leaping.[64] Another example to that effect would be Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world[65] while private firearm ownership is almost non-existent.

On the other hand, Killias[63] argues against the theory of complete substitution, citing a number of studies that have indicated, in his view "rather convincingly", that suicidal candidates far from always turn to another means of suicide if their preferred means is not at hand."


The words in red bold means it's a fact, the words in blue bold indicate an opinion.

Someday you'll learn the difference.

States with local background checks have fewer murders, suicides, and violent crime.

Golly... now would these be states which also have "Right to carry" laws which protect the rights of the individual to carry a concealed weapon?

Hmm.... So given that such is clearly the case... what pray tell do ya suppose stands as the reason for those stats? Is it the likelihood that a criminal will be facing his own mortality when he chooses to violently offend an armed citizen? Or is it the background check?

Now THINK HARD here Chris... and I suggest ya set your 'feelings' aside...

No, actually the opposite....

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

Report Links State Gun Laws To Rates of Slayings, Trafficking - washingtonpost.com

Local Background Checks, Fewer Gun Deaths

Nevada leads in gun deaths, ownership | NevadaAppeal.com

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

States with local background checks have fewer murders, suicides, and violent crime.

Golly... now would these be states which also have "Right to carry" laws which protect the rights of the individual to carry a concealed weapon?

Hmm.... So given that such is clearly the case... what pray tell do ya suppose stands as the reason for those stats? Is it the likelihood that a criminal will be facing his own mortality when he chooses to violently offend an armed citizen? Or is it the background check?

Now THINK HARD here Chris... and I suggest ya set your 'feelings' aside...

No, actually the opposite....

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

Report Links State Gun Laws To Rates of Slayings, Trafficking - washingtonpost.com

Local Background Checks, Fewer Gun Deaths

Nevada leads in gun deaths, ownership | NevadaAppeal.com

Well Chris, there's where you're wrong sis.. the locations in the US with the highest crime rate, violent and otherwise are those locales and states that are governed by leftists... and that sport is simply a function of the natural certainty which requires that where a given pattern of behavior is encouraged, that the behavior can be depended to be found manifesting in abundance...

Now I know that you feel that your sad little stats are conclusive proof of the truth inherent in your position... but IN TRUTH, they're just sad little manipulations...(they're lies...) and yes... I'm afraid that makes you the idiot that speads lies because he just doesn't know any better.

 

[Chris]

Pubs, I like it when you make things up.

The states in the top ten in violent crime are South Carolina, Nevada, Alaska, New Mexico, Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama, etc....

These are not states run by "leftists."

State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Per 100,000 Population - 2004