Let's have some Fun: What if Luft46 had become a reality

[Daryl Hunt]

No, this is what was wanted. It's healthy for many reasons.

Let's look at something. It's all around resources. Personnel, manufacturing, natural resources and Time. What German did was run out of Natural Resources and Time. In order to prolong (time) the war another year, Germany would have need more natural resources. As in the more exotic types like Titanium. Had they had a local or available supply of that they would have been able to produce some pretty nasty things.

Okay, where and how would Germany have gained access to the natural resources it needed?

It´s your scenario. German production in 1944 exceeded all prior war years combined and even in March 1945 for example, 1400 tanks were made (note that a Tiger took ten months). The most serious lack was plane fuel, followed by regular fuel, coal and munitions. Munitions were not the major problem, even when the situation was tough. The defense requires less munition then the attack and the Germans were mostly in the defense. You also cannot make a factory and it will put out planes. You get parts from all across the country and somewhere they will be assembled. One factory loss can halt the entire production of one or more models. Luckily for Germans, many important factories were underground. However, your Luft46 setup simply requires a scenario in which Germany didn´t lack all the resources. So you deal with it. As for resources, a few missiles could have halted the entire bombing campaign of the US and the British Empire. Guided V2 were already available and apparently the thousands of V2 that were made were abused for retaliation purposes rather than for military. The leadership made a lot of mistakes, without those mistakes, a totally different outcome of the war would have been the result.

Not any of this means a thing unless some real changes were to happen.

1. Change in Leadership. That was tried a few times. I don't believe the Allies wanted Hitler replaced. He had way too many whims and it was always in the Allies favor. One more year would not have changed this.

2. Putting butts in the seats. It got so bad that the Germans were putting Cargo Plane Pilots into Fighters with little or no training. You can have a sky full of fighters but the attrition would have been even worse in the next year.

3. The V-2 was supposed to be a Terror Weapon. It ended up being a nucionse weapon at best. It just wasn't accurate enough to hit a smaller target than a small City. It took the US to make anything that accurate and then it wasn't until the 50s.

4, So you have 1400 262s in the air. Remember, the P-80A went into full production in June of 45. And the P-80A was at least as capable as the 262 and much more dependable. One was swept wing and the other was the new Ducted leading edge wing. In today's fighter, you will find both still being used and sometimes a combination of both. You can make 4 a month. Meanwhile, the US ramps up to over 100 a month and it continues to grow. And has the training birds to go with it, isn't having to dodge fighters and bombers while training. There are only 4 countries that can't be invaded. The US, Russia, China and Switzerland. Think about why this is so. The only reason that the Germans were so successful in Italy was the 234 flights. That is until the P-80s made the scene. The P-80 never did see the 234s but that sure did curtail those over flights. Until then, the 234 over flights meant that the Germans were aware of ALL movements by the Allies and could adjust accordingly.

You have yet to address the natural resources like Titanium, Tungsten, Oil, people and others. Where and how are they going to get it. This is the biggie that you have to address.

1. Hitler had less control then we assume today. There were many machinations and Hitler was fed with false intel and drugs all day long. The Russians were aware of German plans within hours and Hitler´s whims were even a good thing because they made the reality different from what the Russians learned. Treason was a mass phenomena within the higher ranks and I don´t even mean Stauffenberg here.

2. The same would apply for the allies, then. You know my thread about the flying aces and thus you understand that this was not the case but propaganda. Sure, everything was short, also pilots in 44/45 but not that short that they would have wasted all the untrained pilots and planes and they would not have done it because there is simply no sense in doing so. There was a small program, the Rammjäger, volunteers tried to hit bombers with their planes, trying to get out in the last moment but it was stupid and driven by the terrors these bombers brought and the desperation of not having the power to stop the bombings. But again, our scenario does not assume a grave situation.

3. The V2 was the first actual cruise missile. You won´t compare a double decker with a F-22 and the V2 was very developed for a first specimen of its kind. It traveled with up to 3580 mph. This is the fire control system of the radio controlled variant of the V2:

A mass production of radio controlled V2 would have had significant impact on the outcome of the war, the more so as there was also a submarine program that probably would have brought the V2 to America and all places of Britain in our scenario.

4. There were never 1400 Me 262. 1433 were made but most were destroyed on the ground while waiting for being transformed into Hitler´s Blitzbomber.
The allies also leaned the Me 262 was slow while starting and attacked it while starting and landing. You see, the situation was so grave that the Me 262 could not unfold its potential. It was a great plane with great flight characteristics. However, when it marked a new era of aircraft, it didn´t change the way air battles were fought.
The production of the first guided air to air missile began in Germany in 1945. 1000 were made but never delivered and they were not intended to be used by single seat fighters because there were problems with controlling the plane and the missile during tests. We can assume that this problems would have been solved and the missiles were carried by Me 262 (initially a favored model for the missile) in 1946. We also can assume a successful deployment against bombers and probably also fighters. Some Me 262 were also equipped with radar already. So we can assume that Germany would have changed the way of air battles in 1946 seriously, smashing all opponents with superior technology. The trainer variant of the Me 262 was the Me 262 B-1a.

First of all, the V-2 was a Ballistic Missile and not a cruise missile. The Cruise Missile title goes to the V-1. The Radio Controls for accuracy were still years beyond grasp. The Sub V-2 program was abandoned due to the V-2 being so easy to screw up. The chances of them actually launching was almost zero. Pick something that actually would have caused the war to go that extra year. And it ain't the V programs.

The ONLY thing weak about the 262 was the lack of Tungsten and Titanium. Unless you address the lack of natural resources, the war would have ended exactly the same day and exactly the same way.

Explain "screw up a V2" and again: You made this scenario up. V1 was a flying bomb, not even a real missile. Radio controlled V2 would have screwed up anything anyone planned.
Again: Rommel, who joined the Stauffenberg group, withhold his army when the allies landed. It was very close anyway and if Rommel would have acted in time, Luft46 would have been possible somehow.

It was Hitler that withheld the Tanks and Troops. They were too afraid to wake him up to tell him what was happening. Even if the troops were released, they might stop one or two of the landings. But the rest would have gone to be successful. No change, just a few 10s of thousands more dead.

The V-1 was the earliest operational version of the Cruise Missile. Get over that.

The V-2 didn't have a good enough guidance to hit accurately. it could hit the town that surrounded the factory but it couldn't hit the factory. All the allies had to do was disperse their assets. Again, it was the US in the 50s that finally ironed that out with the Ballistic Missiles. Russia wasn't far behind. No possible change to history on this one.

You still haven't ironed out where the Germans were to get the natural resources. Again, the only real problem with the 262 and 234 was the turbine blades. It needed Titanium to be successful. It still does today. The Russians took the Jumo/BMW engine and put the titanium blades in it and it worked just fine for them. That is until Rolls sold them the rights to manufacture their engine for the Mig-15. The Mig-9 used the Jumo/BMW modified engine and it was a success with apprx 50 hours between overhaul. The problem Germany had was the countries that controlled the majority of the Titanium was at war with Germany and unreachable. Again, where would Germany get the resources and how? That is the only key to get the war extended to 1946.

 

[westwall]

Far from reality. If the war would have continued, Germany´s strength at the time would have been another. The development of new engines and fighters in Germany would have continued. The P-80 underperformed in Korea and hundreds were lost. Germany produced 774 Me 262 in 1945.

Germany had no prayer dude. They were running out of rail rolling stock. They could make oil and fuel, but they couldn't transport it anywhere. We had absolute mastery of the air space over Germany. It wasn't just air superiority, it was complete control of the air.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Far from reality. If the war would have continued, Germany´s strength at the time would have been another. The development of new engines and fighters in Germany would have continued. The P-80 underperformed in Korea and hundreds were lost. Germany produced 774 Me 262 in 1945.

Germany had no prayer dude. They were running out of rail rolling stock. They could make oil and fuel, but they couldn't transport it anywhere. We had absolute mastery of the air space over Germany. It wasn't just air superiority, it was complete control of the air.

The Germans had a huge problem. They looked at the African Nations as sub humans and acted that way. Some came into the war on Germany's side but quickly changed sides. Attacking Russia was a huge mistake. Between Africa and Russia, that comprised the majority of the more exotic natural resources. Plus, it left the door open for bombing from Italy on their Rumanian Oil Fields and Storage. So the problems started really in 1942. I left the door wide open for him to jump on but he wouldn't jump on them. Germany could have made it to 1946 and maybe beyond had they maintained good relations with the exotic natural resource countries. Instead, they either attacked them or outright pissed them off. Racists do that to Africans and Slavs.

 

[BOPSEY]

So the ETO goes on for another year. Let's see what the Luftwaffe would have faced.

Hundreds of P-80s that would have been rung out by August of 1945. Meaning, they would have been battle ready with a top speed over 50 mph faster than the 262. And more on the way.

Hundreds of B-45s. More than a few B-35s and a host of others including the B-29. Even the B-36 might have been possible. The list of bombers that could have been produced had the war gone on longer is staggering.

A couple or three German Cities would be glow in the dark. You could read at night without a lamp. And the AAF would have the bombers to deliver them.

Most of these didn't happen. The Allies didn't need them. But if Germany had found a way to go one more year, the technology of the US and Britain would have produced them. Mostly the US.

This is adding the consideration that Germany found new ways to make fuel. The Aircraft they would have presented wouldn't have changed that much. Only the numbers in the air would. Also, Germany would have to get more butts in the seats.

German Navy? Where? Has anyone really seen it in strength from 1944 on?

I'll let the ground pounders add the tanks and other weapons. But Germany would have suffered even worse than it did even on the ground as new Allied Weapons made the scene that normally would not be introduced until 1947 and beyond.

Sorry to bust your bubble but the US was almost broke at that time and barely collected enough taxes and bond money to finish the war with Japan let alone keep fighting Germany. Nice fantasy though.

 

[Bleipriester]

Far from reality. If the war would have continued, Germany´s strength at the time would have been another. The development of new engines and fighters in Germany would have continued. The P-80 underperformed in Korea and hundreds were lost. Germany produced 774 Me 262 in 1945.

Germany had no prayer dude. They were running out of rail rolling stock. They could make oil and fuel, but they couldn't transport it anywhere. We had absolute mastery of the air space over Germany. It wasn't just air superiority, it was complete control of the air.

When the US bombers traveled away, the Technische Nothilfe repaired the infrastructure within hours.

Technische Nothilfe - Wikipedia

From a German MoD report:

02.21.1945:
28.000 wagons of coal daily. 36.000 are needed.

 

[Bleipriester]

It´s your scenario. German production in 1944 exceeded all prior war years combined and even in March 1945 for example, 1400 tanks were made (note that a Tiger took ten months). The most serious lack was plane fuel, followed by regular fuel, coal and munitions. Munitions were not the major problem, even when the situation was tough. The defense requires less munition then the attack and the Germans were mostly in the defense. You also cannot make a factory and it will put out planes. You get parts from all across the country and somewhere they will be assembled. One factory loss can halt the entire production of one or more models. Luckily for Germans, many important factories were underground. However, your Luft46 setup simply requires a scenario in which Germany didn´t lack all the resources. So you deal with it. As for resources, a few missiles could have halted the entire bombing campaign of the US and the British Empire. Guided V2 were already available and apparently the thousands of V2 that were made were abused for retaliation purposes rather than for military. The leadership made a lot of mistakes, without those mistakes, a totally different outcome of the war would have been the result.

Not any of this means a thing unless some real changes were to happen.

1. Change in Leadership. That was tried a few times. I don't believe the Allies wanted Hitler replaced. He had way too many whims and it was always in the Allies favor. One more year would not have changed this.

2. Putting butts in the seats. It got so bad that the Germans were putting Cargo Plane Pilots into Fighters with little or no training. You can have a sky full of fighters but the attrition would have been even worse in the next year.

3. The V-2 was supposed to be a Terror Weapon. It ended up being a nucionse weapon at best. It just wasn't accurate enough to hit a smaller target than a small City. It took the US to make anything that accurate and then it wasn't until the 50s.

4, So you have 1400 262s in the air. Remember, the P-80A went into full production in June of 45. And the P-80A was at least as capable as the 262 and much more dependable. One was swept wing and the other was the new Ducted leading edge wing. In today's fighter, you will find both still being used and sometimes a combination of both. You can make 4 a month. Meanwhile, the US ramps up to over 100 a month and it continues to grow. And has the training birds to go with it, isn't having to dodge fighters and bombers while training. There are only 4 countries that can't be invaded. The US, Russia, China and Switzerland. Think about why this is so. The only reason that the Germans were so successful in Italy was the 234 flights. That is until the P-80s made the scene. The P-80 never did see the 234s but that sure did curtail those over flights. Until then, the 234 over flights meant that the Germans were aware of ALL movements by the Allies and could adjust accordingly.

You have yet to address the natural resources like Titanium, Tungsten, Oil, people and others. Where and how are they going to get it. This is the biggie that you have to address.

1. Hitler had less control then we assume today. There were many machinations and Hitler was fed with false intel and drugs all day long. The Russians were aware of German plans within hours and Hitler´s whims were even a good thing because they made the reality different from what the Russians learned. Treason was a mass phenomena within the higher ranks and I don´t even mean Stauffenberg here.

2. The same would apply for the allies, then. You know my thread about the flying aces and thus you understand that this was not the case but propaganda. Sure, everything was short, also pilots in 44/45 but not that short that they would have wasted all the untrained pilots and planes and they would not have done it because there is simply no sense in doing so. There was a small program, the Rammjäger, volunteers tried to hit bombers with their planes, trying to get out in the last moment but it was stupid and driven by the terrors these bombers brought and the desperation of not having the power to stop the bombings. But again, our scenario does not assume a grave situation.

3. The V2 was the first actual cruise missile. You won´t compare a double decker with a F-22 and the V2 was very developed for a first specimen of its kind. It traveled with up to 3580 mph. This is the fire control system of the radio controlled variant of the V2:

A mass production of radio controlled V2 would have had significant impact on the outcome of the war, the more so as there was also a submarine program that probably would have brought the V2 to America and all places of Britain in our scenario.

4. There were never 1400 Me 262. 1433 were made but most were destroyed on the ground while waiting for being transformed into Hitler´s Blitzbomber.
The allies also leaned the Me 262 was slow while starting and attacked it while starting and landing. You see, the situation was so grave that the Me 262 could not unfold its potential. It was a great plane with great flight characteristics. However, when it marked a new era of aircraft, it didn´t change the way air battles were fought.
The production of the first guided air to air missile began in Germany in 1945. 1000 were made but never delivered and they were not intended to be used by single seat fighters because there were problems with controlling the plane and the missile during tests. We can assume that this problems would have been solved and the missiles were carried by Me 262 (initially a favored model for the missile) in 1946. We also can assume a successful deployment against bombers and probably also fighters. Some Me 262 were also equipped with radar already. So we can assume that Germany would have changed the way of air battles in 1946 seriously, smashing all opponents with superior technology. The trainer variant of the Me 262 was the Me 262 B-1a.

First of all, the V-2 was a Ballistic Missile and not a cruise missile. The Cruise Missile title goes to the V-1. The Radio Controls for accuracy were still years beyond grasp. The Sub V-2 program was abandoned due to the V-2 being so easy to screw up. The chances of them actually launching was almost zero. Pick something that actually would have caused the war to go that extra year. And it ain't the V programs.

The ONLY thing weak about the 262 was the lack of Tungsten and Titanium. Unless you address the lack of natural resources, the war would have ended exactly the same day and exactly the same way.

Explain "screw up a V2" and again: You made this scenario up. V1 was a flying bomb, not even a real missile. Radio controlled V2 would have screwed up anything anyone planned.
Again: Rommel, who joined the Stauffenberg group, withhold his army when the allies landed. It was very close anyway and if Rommel would have acted in time, Luft46 would have been possible somehow.

It was Hitler that withheld the Tanks and Troops. They were too afraid to wake him up to tell him what was happening. Even if the troops were released, they might stop one or two of the landings. But the rest would have gone to be successful. No change, just a few 10s of thousands more dead.

The V-1 was the earliest operational version of the Cruise Missile. Get over that.

The V-2 didn't have a good enough guidance to hit accurately. it could hit the town that surrounded the factory but it couldn't hit the factory. All the allies had to do was disperse their assets. Again, it was the US in the 50s that finally ironed that out with the Ballistic Missiles. Russia wasn't far behind. No possible change to history on this one.

You still haven't ironed out where the Germans were to get the natural resources. Again, the only real problem with the 262 and 234 was the turbine blades. It needed Titanium to be successful. It still does today. The Russians took the Jumo/BMW engine and put the titanium blades in it and it worked just fine for them. That is until Rolls sold them the rights to manufacture their engine for the Mig-15. The Mig-9 used the Jumo/BMW modified engine and it was a success with apprx 50 hours between overhaul. The problem Germany had was the countries that controlled the majority of the Titanium was at war with Germany and unreachable. Again, where would Germany get the resources and how? That is the only key to get the war extended to 1946.

Romme didn´t react and they made him kill himself. Deal with it.

The V1 served the purpose of a cruise missile but it was rather a plane than a missile. Get over it.

The radio controlled V2 would have been precise enough. Face the fact. The US got their rocket science from Operation Paperclip and the first thing they were working on was to copy the V2.
The normal V2 had a 600 meter accuracy and its guidance system was used in US missiles later.

PIGA accelerometer - Wikipedia

 

[westwall]

So the ETO goes on for another year. Let's see what the Luftwaffe would have faced.

Hundreds of P-80s that would have been rung out by August of 1945. Meaning, they would have been battle ready with a top speed over 50 mph faster than the 262. And more on the way.

Hundreds of B-45s. More than a few B-35s and a host of others including the B-29. Even the B-36 might have been possible. The list of bombers that could have been produced had the war gone on longer is staggering.

A couple or three German Cities would be glow in the dark. You could read at night without a lamp. And the AAF would have the bombers to deliver them.

Most of these didn't happen. The Allies didn't need them. But if Germany had found a way to go one more year, the technology of the US and Britain would have produced them. Mostly the US.

This is adding the consideration that Germany found new ways to make fuel. The Aircraft they would have presented wouldn't have changed that much. Only the numbers in the air would. Also, Germany would have to get more butts in the seats.

German Navy? Where? Has anyone really seen it in strength from 1944 on?

I'll let the ground pounders add the tanks and other weapons. But Germany would have suffered even worse than it did even on the ground as new Allied Weapons made the scene that normally would not be introduced until 1947 and beyond.

Sorry to bust your bubble but the US was almost broke at that time and barely collected enough taxes and bond money to finish the war with Japan let alone keep fighting Germany. Nice fantasy though.

Cute fantasy, but not borne out by fact. Germany WAS bankrupt, many times over in point of fact, and the USA was able to generate as much cash as it needed for the war effort.

 

[westwall]

Far from reality. If the war would have continued, Germany´s strength at the time would have been another. The development of new engines and fighters in Germany would have continued. The P-80 underperformed in Korea and hundreds were lost. Germany produced 774 Me 262 in 1945.

Germany had no prayer dude. They were running out of rail rolling stock. They could make oil and fuel, but they couldn't transport it anywhere. We had absolute mastery of the air space over Germany. It wasn't just air superiority, it was complete control of the air.

When the US bombers traveled away, the Technische Nothilfe repaired the infrastructure within hours.

Technische Nothilfe - Wikipedia

From a German MoD report:

02.21.1945:
28.000 wagons of coal daily. 36.000 are needed.

The American Fighter aircraft, when they were flying home after escorting the bombers to their targets, went down on the deck and strafed anything that moved. The German rolling stock situation was critical, most of the fuel cars were destroyed, most of the steam engines were destroyed, it had descended to the point that no train dared move anywhere in Germany during the daylight hours.

 

[Bleipriester]

So the ETO goes on for another year. Let's see what the Luftwaffe would have faced.

Hundreds of P-80s that would have been rung out by August of 1945. Meaning, they would have been battle ready with a top speed over 50 mph faster than the 262. And more on the way.

Hundreds of B-45s. More than a few B-35s and a host of others including the B-29. Even the B-36 might have been possible. The list of bombers that could have been produced had the war gone on longer is staggering.

A couple or three German Cities would be glow in the dark. You could read at night without a lamp. And the AAF would have the bombers to deliver them.

Most of these didn't happen. The Allies didn't need them. But if Germany had found a way to go one more year, the technology of the US and Britain would have produced them. Mostly the US.

This is adding the consideration that Germany found new ways to make fuel. The Aircraft they would have presented wouldn't have changed that much. Only the numbers in the air would. Also, Germany would have to get more butts in the seats.

German Navy? Where? Has anyone really seen it in strength from 1944 on?

I'll let the ground pounders add the tanks and other weapons. But Germany would have suffered even worse than it did even on the ground as new Allied Weapons made the scene that normally would not be introduced until 1947 and beyond.

Sorry to bust your bubble but the US was almost broke at that time and barely collected enough taxes and bond money to finish the war with Japan let alone keep fighting Germany. Nice fantasy though.

Cute fantasy, but not borne out by fact. Germany WAS bankrupt, many times over in point of fact, and the USA was able to generate as much cash as it needed for the war effort.

Germany did not need to pay any company during WWII.

 

[Bleipriester]

Far from reality. If the war would have continued, Germany´s strength at the time would have been another. The development of new engines and fighters in Germany would have continued. The P-80 underperformed in Korea and hundreds were lost. Germany produced 774 Me 262 in 1945.

Germany had no prayer dude. They were running out of rail rolling stock. They could make oil and fuel, but they couldn't transport it anywhere. We had absolute mastery of the air space over Germany. It wasn't just air superiority, it was complete control of the air.

When the US bombers traveled away, the Technische Nothilfe repaired the infrastructure within hours.

Technische Nothilfe - Wikipedia

From a German MoD report:

02.21.1945:
28.000 wagons of coal daily. 36.000 are needed.

The American Fighter aircraft, when they were flying home after escorting the bombers to their targets, went down on the deck and strafed anything that moved. The German rolling stock situation was critical, most of the fuel cars were destroyed, most of the steam engines were destroyed, it had descended to the point that no train dared move anywhere in Germany during the daylight hours.

You can see the numbers. The high degree of production would have been impossible without.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Not any of this means a thing unless some real changes were to happen.

1. Change in Leadership. That was tried a few times. I don't believe the Allies wanted Hitler replaced. He had way too many whims and it was always in the Allies favor. One more year would not have changed this.

2. Putting butts in the seats. It got so bad that the Germans were putting Cargo Plane Pilots into Fighters with little or no training. You can have a sky full of fighters but the attrition would have been even worse in the next year.

3. The V-2 was supposed to be a Terror Weapon. It ended up being a nucionse weapon at best. It just wasn't accurate enough to hit a smaller target than a small City. It took the US to make anything that accurate and then it wasn't until the 50s.

4, So you have 1400 262s in the air. Remember, the P-80A went into full production in June of 45. And the P-80A was at least as capable as the 262 and much more dependable. One was swept wing and the other was the new Ducted leading edge wing. In today's fighter, you will find both still being used and sometimes a combination of both. You can make 4 a month. Meanwhile, the US ramps up to over 100 a month and it continues to grow. And has the training birds to go with it, isn't having to dodge fighters and bombers while training. There are only 4 countries that can't be invaded. The US, Russia, China and Switzerland. Think about why this is so. The only reason that the Germans were so successful in Italy was the 234 flights. That is until the P-80s made the scene. The P-80 never did see the 234s but that sure did curtail those over flights. Until then, the 234 over flights meant that the Germans were aware of ALL movements by the Allies and could adjust accordingly.

You have yet to address the natural resources like Titanium, Tungsten, Oil, people and others. Where and how are they going to get it. This is the biggie that you have to address.

1. Hitler had less control then we assume today. There were many machinations and Hitler was fed with false intel and drugs all day long. The Russians were aware of German plans within hours and Hitler´s whims were even a good thing because they made the reality different from what the Russians learned. Treason was a mass phenomena within the higher ranks and I don´t even mean Stauffenberg here.

2. The same would apply for the allies, then. You know my thread about the flying aces and thus you understand that this was not the case but propaganda. Sure, everything was short, also pilots in 44/45 but not that short that they would have wasted all the untrained pilots and planes and they would not have done it because there is simply no sense in doing so. There was a small program, the Rammjäger, volunteers tried to hit bombers with their planes, trying to get out in the last moment but it was stupid and driven by the terrors these bombers brought and the desperation of not having the power to stop the bombings. But again, our scenario does not assume a grave situation.

3. The V2 was the first actual cruise missile. You won´t compare a double decker with a F-22 and the V2 was very developed for a first specimen of its kind. It traveled with up to 3580 mph. This is the fire control system of the radio controlled variant of the V2:

A mass production of radio controlled V2 would have had significant impact on the outcome of the war, the more so as there was also a submarine program that probably would have brought the V2 to America and all places of Britain in our scenario.

4. There were never 1400 Me 262. 1433 were made but most were destroyed on the ground while waiting for being transformed into Hitler´s Blitzbomber.
The allies also leaned the Me 262 was slow while starting and attacked it while starting and landing. You see, the situation was so grave that the Me 262 could not unfold its potential. It was a great plane with great flight characteristics. However, when it marked a new era of aircraft, it didn´t change the way air battles were fought.
The production of the first guided air to air missile began in Germany in 1945. 1000 were made but never delivered and they were not intended to be used by single seat fighters because there were problems with controlling the plane and the missile during tests. We can assume that this problems would have been solved and the missiles were carried by Me 262 (initially a favored model for the missile) in 1946. We also can assume a successful deployment against bombers and probably also fighters. Some Me 262 were also equipped with radar already. So we can assume that Germany would have changed the way of air battles in 1946 seriously, smashing all opponents with superior technology. The trainer variant of the Me 262 was the Me 262 B-1a.

First of all, the V-2 was a Ballistic Missile and not a cruise missile. The Cruise Missile title goes to the V-1. The Radio Controls for accuracy were still years beyond grasp. The Sub V-2 program was abandoned due to the V-2 being so easy to screw up. The chances of them actually launching was almost zero. Pick something that actually would have caused the war to go that extra year. And it ain't the V programs.

The ONLY thing weak about the 262 was the lack of Tungsten and Titanium. Unless you address the lack of natural resources, the war would have ended exactly the same day and exactly the same way.

Explain "screw up a V2" and again: You made this scenario up. V1 was a flying bomb, not even a real missile. Radio controlled V2 would have screwed up anything anyone planned.
Again: Rommel, who joined the Stauffenberg group, withhold his army when the allies landed. It was very close anyway and if Rommel would have acted in time, Luft46 would have been possible somehow.

It was Hitler that withheld the Tanks and Troops. They were too afraid to wake him up to tell him what was happening. Even if the troops were released, they might stop one or two of the landings. But the rest would have gone to be successful. No change, just a few 10s of thousands more dead.

The V-1 was the earliest operational version of the Cruise Missile. Get over that.

The V-2 didn't have a good enough guidance to hit accurately. it could hit the town that surrounded the factory but it couldn't hit the factory. All the allies had to do was disperse their assets. Again, it was the US in the 50s that finally ironed that out with the Ballistic Missiles. Russia wasn't far behind. No possible change to history on this one.

You still haven't ironed out where the Germans were to get the natural resources. Again, the only real problem with the 262 and 234 was the turbine blades. It needed Titanium to be successful. It still does today. The Russians took the Jumo/BMW engine and put the titanium blades in it and it worked just fine for them. That is until Rolls sold them the rights to manufacture their engine for the Mig-15. The Mig-9 used the Jumo/BMW modified engine and it was a success with apprx 50 hours between overhaul. The problem Germany had was the countries that controlled the majority of the Titanium was at war with Germany and unreachable. Again, where would Germany get the resources and how? That is the only key to get the war extended to 1946.

Romme didn´t react and they made him kill himself. Deal with it.

The V1 served the purpose of a cruise missile but it was rather a plane than a missile. Get over it.

The radio controlled V2 would have been precise enough. Face the fact. The US got their rocket science from Operation Paperclip and the first thing they were working on was to copy the V2.
The normal V2 had a 600 meter accuracy and its guidance system was used in US missiles later.

PIGA accelerometer - Wikipedia

You sure do like alternative History. Rommel was suspected by Hitler as one of the ones that were plotting Hitlers Assassination. Deal with a little History for a change.

A Cruise Missile IS a remote plane. It flies on wings with tail surfaces. That description fits not only the V-1 but the Tomahawk and kitchen missile. Get over it yourself.

600 meters is almost a half mile in radius. That means it could fall as much as 1 mile from it's intended target. I stand by my original statement that it was accurate enough to hit a small city but not accurate enough to endanger the factory that in or near that city. The V-2 is closely related to the SCUD which has about the same accuracy and is also just a Vengence weapon. And the V-2 contributed to the rockets motors but the Vanguard provided the guidance system. Even though Goddard died in 1945, his Vanguard (USN) had the most accurate guidance system. You may claim the inventions and accomplishments for those countries Germany over ran but you have a real problem with the Brits and Americans accomplishments since you failed to over run them. Although Germany stole both of them blind before 1940.

 

[Bleipriester]

1. Hitler had less control then we assume today. There were many machinations and Hitler was fed with false intel and drugs all day long. The Russians were aware of German plans within hours and Hitler´s whims were even a good thing because they made the reality different from what the Russians learned. Treason was a mass phenomena within the higher ranks and I don´t even mean Stauffenberg here.

2. The same would apply for the allies, then. You know my thread about the flying aces and thus you understand that this was not the case but propaganda. Sure, everything was short, also pilots in 44/45 but not that short that they would have wasted all the untrained pilots and planes and they would not have done it because there is simply no sense in doing so. There was a small program, the Rammjäger, volunteers tried to hit bombers with their planes, trying to get out in the last moment but it was stupid and driven by the terrors these bombers brought and the desperation of not having the power to stop the bombings. But again, our scenario does not assume a grave situation.

3. The V2 was the first actual cruise missile. You won´t compare a double decker with a F-22 and the V2 was very developed for a first specimen of its kind. It traveled with up to 3580 mph. This is the fire control system of the radio controlled variant of the V2:

A mass production of radio controlled V2 would have had significant impact on the outcome of the war, the more so as there was also a submarine program that probably would have brought the V2 to America and all places of Britain in our scenario.

4. There were never 1400 Me 262. 1433 were made but most were destroyed on the ground while waiting for being transformed into Hitler´s Blitzbomber.
The allies also leaned the Me 262 was slow while starting and attacked it while starting and landing. You see, the situation was so grave that the Me 262 could not unfold its potential. It was a great plane with great flight characteristics. However, when it marked a new era of aircraft, it didn´t change the way air battles were fought.
The production of the first guided air to air missile began in Germany in 1945. 1000 were made but never delivered and they were not intended to be used by single seat fighters because there were problems with controlling the plane and the missile during tests. We can assume that this problems would have been solved and the missiles were carried by Me 262 (initially a favored model for the missile) in 1946. We also can assume a successful deployment against bombers and probably also fighters. Some Me 262 were also equipped with radar already. So we can assume that Germany would have changed the way of air battles in 1946 seriously, smashing all opponents with superior technology. The trainer variant of the Me 262 was the Me 262 B-1a.

First of all, the V-2 was a Ballistic Missile and not a cruise missile. The Cruise Missile title goes to the V-1. The Radio Controls for accuracy were still years beyond grasp. The Sub V-2 program was abandoned due to the V-2 being so easy to screw up. The chances of them actually launching was almost zero. Pick something that actually would have caused the war to go that extra year. And it ain't the V programs.

The ONLY thing weak about the 262 was the lack of Tungsten and Titanium. Unless you address the lack of natural resources, the war would have ended exactly the same day and exactly the same way.

Explain "screw up a V2" and again: You made this scenario up. V1 was a flying bomb, not even a real missile. Radio controlled V2 would have screwed up anything anyone planned.
Again: Rommel, who joined the Stauffenberg group, withhold his army when the allies landed. It was very close anyway and if Rommel would have acted in time, Luft46 would have been possible somehow.

It was Hitler that withheld the Tanks and Troops. They were too afraid to wake him up to tell him what was happening. Even if the troops were released, they might stop one or two of the landings. But the rest would have gone to be successful. No change, just a few 10s of thousands more dead.

The V-1 was the earliest operational version of the Cruise Missile. Get over that.

The V-2 didn't have a good enough guidance to hit accurately. it could hit the town that surrounded the factory but it couldn't hit the factory. All the allies had to do was disperse their assets. Again, it was the US in the 50s that finally ironed that out with the Ballistic Missiles. Russia wasn't far behind. No possible change to history on this one.

You still haven't ironed out where the Germans were to get the natural resources. Again, the only real problem with the 262 and 234 was the turbine blades. It needed Titanium to be successful. It still does today. The Russians took the Jumo/BMW engine and put the titanium blades in it and it worked just fine for them. That is until Rolls sold them the rights to manufacture their engine for the Mig-15. The Mig-9 used the Jumo/BMW modified engine and it was a success with apprx 50 hours between overhaul. The problem Germany had was the countries that controlled the majority of the Titanium was at war with Germany and unreachable. Again, where would Germany get the resources and how? That is the only key to get the war extended to 1946.

Romme didn´t react and they made him kill himself. Deal with it.

The V1 served the purpose of a cruise missile but it was rather a plane than a missile. Get over it.

The radio controlled V2 would have been precise enough. Face the fact. The US got their rocket science from Operation Paperclip and the first thing they were working on was to copy the V2.
The normal V2 had a 600 meter accuracy and its guidance system was used in US missiles later.

PIGA accelerometer - Wikipedia

You sure do like alternative History. Rommel was suspected by Hitler as one of the ones that were plotting Hitlers Assassination. Deal with a little History for a change.

A Cruise Missile IS a remote plane. It flies on wings with tail surfaces. That description fits not only the V-1 but the Tomahawk and kitchen missile. Get over it yourself.

600 meters is almost a half mile in radius. That means it could fall as much as 1 mile from it's intended target. I stand by my original statement that it was accurate enough to hit a small city but not accurate enough to endanger the factory that in or near that city. The V-2 is closely related to the SCUD which has about the same accuracy and is also just a Vengence weapon. And the V-2 contributed to the rockets motors but the Vanguard provided the guidance system. Even though Goddard died in 1945, his Vanguard (USN) had the most accurate guidance system. You may claim the inventions and accomplishments for those countries Germany over ran but you have a real problem with the Brits and Americans accomplishments since you failed to over run them. Although Germany stole both of them blind before 1940.

If you are up for serious debate, you must stick to the facts.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

First of all, the V-2 was a Ballistic Missile and not a cruise missile. The Cruise Missile title goes to the V-1. The Radio Controls for accuracy were still years beyond grasp. The Sub V-2 program was abandoned due to the V-2 being so easy to screw up. The chances of them actually launching was almost zero. Pick something that actually would have caused the war to go that extra year. And it ain't the V programs.

The ONLY thing weak about the 262 was the lack of Tungsten and Titanium. Unless you address the lack of natural resources, the war would have ended exactly the same day and exactly the same way.

Explain "screw up a V2" and again: You made this scenario up. V1 was a flying bomb, not even a real missile. Radio controlled V2 would have screwed up anything anyone planned.
Again: Rommel, who joined the Stauffenberg group, withhold his army when the allies landed. It was very close anyway and if Rommel would have acted in time, Luft46 would have been possible somehow.

It was Hitler that withheld the Tanks and Troops. They were too afraid to wake him up to tell him what was happening. Even if the troops were released, they might stop one or two of the landings. But the rest would have gone to be successful. No change, just a few 10s of thousands more dead.

The V-1 was the earliest operational version of the Cruise Missile. Get over that.

The V-2 didn't have a good enough guidance to hit accurately. it could hit the town that surrounded the factory but it couldn't hit the factory. All the allies had to do was disperse their assets. Again, it was the US in the 50s that finally ironed that out with the Ballistic Missiles. Russia wasn't far behind. No possible change to history on this one.

You still haven't ironed out where the Germans were to get the natural resources. Again, the only real problem with the 262 and 234 was the turbine blades. It needed Titanium to be successful. It still does today. The Russians took the Jumo/BMW engine and put the titanium blades in it and it worked just fine for them. That is until Rolls sold them the rights to manufacture their engine for the Mig-15. The Mig-9 used the Jumo/BMW modified engine and it was a success with apprx 50 hours between overhaul. The problem Germany had was the countries that controlled the majority of the Titanium was at war with Germany and unreachable. Again, where would Germany get the resources and how? That is the only key to get the war extended to 1946.

Romme didn´t react and they made him kill himself. Deal with it.

The V1 served the purpose of a cruise missile but it was rather a plane than a missile. Get over it.

The radio controlled V2 would have been precise enough. Face the fact. The US got their rocket science from Operation Paperclip and the first thing they were working on was to copy the V2.
The normal V2 had a 600 meter accuracy and its guidance system was used in US missiles later.

PIGA accelerometer - Wikipedia

You sure do like alternative History. Rommel was suspected by Hitler as one of the ones that were plotting Hitlers Assassination. Deal with a little History for a change.

A Cruise Missile IS a remote plane. It flies on wings with tail surfaces. That description fits not only the V-1 but the Tomahawk and kitchen missile. Get over it yourself.

600 meters is almost a half mile in radius. That means it could fall as much as 1 mile from it's intended target. I stand by my original statement that it was accurate enough to hit a small city but not accurate enough to endanger the factory that in or near that city. The V-2 is closely related to the SCUD which has about the same accuracy and is also just a Vengence weapon. And the V-2 contributed to the rockets motors but the Vanguard provided the guidance system. Even though Goddard died in 1945, his Vanguard (USN) had the most accurate guidance system. You may claim the inventions and accomplishments for those countries Germany over ran but you have a real problem with the Brits and Americans accomplishments since you failed to over run them. Although Germany stole both of them blind before 1940.

If you are up for serious debate, you must stick to the facts.

One of the things I have noted from your type of people is you seem to rewite history to meet your own ends. You can't rewrite history. It can't be changed. That is, unless you have a time machine. Since that doesn't exist yet (if ever) you have to stay within histories guidelines.

I showed you how Germany could have gotten the resources but since the German Leadership was so bigoted, that never came to pass. The real exotic resources were all controlled by inferior races like African and Slavs. By working with these two groups, Germany could have lasted until 1946 but not a day past that since the US would have gone nuclear and you don't clean that mess up and be in operation the next day. Or the next week or even the next year.

The War could have ended in 1941 had Germany sued for peace and stopped attacking Britain and never attacked the Soviet Union. They would have kept France and surrounding countries as their sat possessions. The US would never have entered the war against Germany if Germany had already sued for peace. Japan is another matter and Japan standing alone would have been taken out much quicker. By treating the "Inferior Beings" as equals even if you may think that they aren't, Germany's rocket and Jets would have progressed into something that would make them a world leader even today. The resources would have been available and the Jumo and BMW engines would have been successful with at least a 50 hour TTO instead of having trouble even making 10 hours (Germany claimed 25 hours but that's been proven incorrect).

Since all those mistakes were made and more, there is no way in hell that there could have been a Luft'46. It ended exactly the way it was predestined to end and in exactly the same time. The only changes that might have happened was the US and Britain to continue to Berlin instead of stopping where they did. The world would have been a much better place today. My Father said that when they pushed into Germany, they were met with very little resistance from the Civilians. He said they were very helpful even. The Civilians understood that they were going to be conquered at that point and the only choice they had was, By Whom. But Roosevelt and Churchill made the agreement to stop where they stopped and allowed the Soviets to go a lot further than they should have.

I put this message base out to see just how off the mark you could get. You didn't let me down. You want your Luft'46 but can't come up with the reasons why it would have happened. Since most of the real mistakes were made before 1943, there could not have been any Luft'46.

 

[Bleipriester]

Explain "screw up a V2" and again: You made this scenario up. V1 was a flying bomb, not even a real missile. Radio controlled V2 would have screwed up anything anyone planned.
Again: Rommel, who joined the Stauffenberg group, withhold his army when the allies landed. It was very close anyway and if Rommel would have acted in time, Luft46 would have been possible somehow.

It was Hitler that withheld the Tanks and Troops. They were too afraid to wake him up to tell him what was happening. Even if the troops were released, they might stop one or two of the landings. But the rest would have gone to be successful. No change, just a few 10s of thousands more dead.

The V-1 was the earliest operational version of the Cruise Missile. Get over that.

The V-2 didn't have a good enough guidance to hit accurately. it could hit the town that surrounded the factory but it couldn't hit the factory. All the allies had to do was disperse their assets. Again, it was the US in the 50s that finally ironed that out with the Ballistic Missiles. Russia wasn't far behind. No possible change to history on this one.

You still haven't ironed out where the Germans were to get the natural resources. Again, the only real problem with the 262 and 234 was the turbine blades. It needed Titanium to be successful. It still does today. The Russians took the Jumo/BMW engine and put the titanium blades in it and it worked just fine for them. That is until Rolls sold them the rights to manufacture their engine for the Mig-15. The Mig-9 used the Jumo/BMW modified engine and it was a success with apprx 50 hours between overhaul. The problem Germany had was the countries that controlled the majority of the Titanium was at war with Germany and unreachable. Again, where would Germany get the resources and how? That is the only key to get the war extended to 1946.

Romme didn´t react and they made him kill himself. Deal with it.

The V1 served the purpose of a cruise missile but it was rather a plane than a missile. Get over it.

The radio controlled V2 would have been precise enough. Face the fact. The US got their rocket science from Operation Paperclip and the first thing they were working on was to copy the V2.
The normal V2 had a 600 meter accuracy and its guidance system was used in US missiles later.

PIGA accelerometer - Wikipedia

You sure do like alternative History. Rommel was suspected by Hitler as one of the ones that were plotting Hitlers Assassination. Deal with a little History for a change.

A Cruise Missile IS a remote plane. It flies on wings with tail surfaces. That description fits not only the V-1 but the Tomahawk and kitchen missile. Get over it yourself.

600 meters is almost a half mile in radius. That means it could fall as much as 1 mile from it's intended target. I stand by my original statement that it was accurate enough to hit a small city but not accurate enough to endanger the factory that in or near that city. The V-2 is closely related to the SCUD which has about the same accuracy and is also just a Vengence weapon. And the V-2 contributed to the rockets motors but the Vanguard provided the guidance system. Even though Goddard died in 1945, his Vanguard (USN) had the most accurate guidance system. You may claim the inventions and accomplishments for those countries Germany over ran but you have a real problem with the Brits and Americans accomplishments since you failed to over run them. Although Germany stole both of them blind before 1940.

If you are up for serious debate, you must stick to the facts.

One of the things I have noted from your type of people is you seem to rewite history to meet your own ends. You can't rewrite history. It can't be changed. That is, unless you have a time machine. Since that doesn't exist yet (if ever) you have to stay within histories guidelines.

I showed you how Germany could have gotten the resources but since the German Leadership was so bigoted, that never came to pass. The real exotic resources were all controlled by inferior races like African and Slavs. By working with these two groups, Germany could have lasted until 1946 but not a day past that since the US would have gone nuclear and you don't clean that mess up and be in operation the next day. Or the next week or even the next year.

The War could have ended in 1941 had Germany sued for peace and stopped attacking Britain and never attacked the Soviet Union. They would have kept France and surrounding countries as their sat possessions. The US would never have entered the war against Germany if Germany had already sued for peace. Japan is another matter and Japan standing alone would have been taken out much quicker. By treating the "Inferior Beings" as equals even if you may think that they aren't, Germany's rocket and Jets would have progressed into something that would make them a world leader even today. The resources would have been available and the Jumo and BMW engines would have been successful with at least a 50 hour TTO instead of having trouble even making 10 hours (Germany claimed 25 hours but that's been proven incorrect).

Since all those mistakes were made and more, there is no way in hell that there could have been a Luft'46. It ended exactly the way it was predestined to end and in exactly the same time. The only changes that might have happened was the US and Britain to continue to Berlin instead of stopping where they did. The world would have been a much better place today. My Father said that when they pushed into Germany, they were met with very little resistance from the Civilians. He said they were very helpful even. The Civilians understood that they were going to be conquered at that point and the only choice they had was, By Whom. But Roosevelt and Churchill made the agreement to stop where they stopped and allowed the Soviets to go a lot further than they should have.

I put this message base out to see just how off the mark you could get. You didn't let me down. You want your Luft'46 but can't come up with the reasons why it would have happened. Since most of the real mistakes were made before 1943, there could not have been any Luft'46.

Beside the usual claims you make you missed the part of history where France and Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way round. That it was Germany in the end that launched an invasion is due to the allies only launched the so called phony war that did not include any serious military action.
The war on the Soviet Union is controversial and the official western version is that Germany suddenly raided unsuspecting shining ligh Stalin. Soldiers report they stormed into the Soviet attack formations pre-empting their imminent attack. The war on the US had two reasons. First, US ships protected convoys to Britain and already fired at German ships, even civilian ships, without any declaration of war. So Germany had to act. Second, it was to assist the ally Japan. The war on Serbia and co was due to other two reasons. First and foremost, the ally Italy attacked Greece without prior notice or approval and when they messed it up they called Germany for help. Second, it was to remove the Brits from the islands and waters there. Same reasons apply for the Africa war.
The war on Poland was a German-Polish issue the west allies had actually nothing to do with and they couldn´t care less when the Soviets invaded Poland too. Both the German and Polish militaries were mobilized already by the way and there is no historic hint or evidence for a sudden raid. It is the typical sole blame game the winners play.

You made up your Luft46 topic and now you blame it on me. I don´t have to explain anything to justify your scenario. As for nuclear bombs, the results of Japan made a repetition unlikely. The General who insisted on nukes in the Korea war was sacked, by the way.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It was Hitler that withheld the Tanks and Troops. They were too afraid to wake him up to tell him what was happening. Even if the troops were released, they might stop one or two of the landings. But the rest would have gone to be successful. No change, just a few 10s of thousands more dead.

The V-1 was the earliest operational version of the Cruise Missile. Get over that.

The V-2 didn't have a good enough guidance to hit accurately. it could hit the town that surrounded the factory but it couldn't hit the factory. All the allies had to do was disperse their assets. Again, it was the US in the 50s that finally ironed that out with the Ballistic Missiles. Russia wasn't far behind. No possible change to history on this one.

You still haven't ironed out where the Germans were to get the natural resources. Again, the only real problem with the 262 and 234 was the turbine blades. It needed Titanium to be successful. It still does today. The Russians took the Jumo/BMW engine and put the titanium blades in it and it worked just fine for them. That is until Rolls sold them the rights to manufacture their engine for the Mig-15. The Mig-9 used the Jumo/BMW modified engine and it was a success with apprx 50 hours between overhaul. The problem Germany had was the countries that controlled the majority of the Titanium was at war with Germany and unreachable. Again, where would Germany get the resources and how? That is the only key to get the war extended to 1946.

Romme didn´t react and they made him kill himself. Deal with it.

The V1 served the purpose of a cruise missile but it was rather a plane than a missile. Get over it.

The radio controlled V2 would have been precise enough. Face the fact. The US got their rocket science from Operation Paperclip and the first thing they were working on was to copy the V2.
The normal V2 had a 600 meter accuracy and its guidance system was used in US missiles later.

PIGA accelerometer - Wikipedia

You sure do like alternative History. Rommel was suspected by Hitler as one of the ones that were plotting Hitlers Assassination. Deal with a little History for a change.

A Cruise Missile IS a remote plane. It flies on wings with tail surfaces. That description fits not only the V-1 but the Tomahawk and kitchen missile. Get over it yourself.

600 meters is almost a half mile in radius. That means it could fall as much as 1 mile from it's intended target. I stand by my original statement that it was accurate enough to hit a small city but not accurate enough to endanger the factory that in or near that city. The V-2 is closely related to the SCUD which has about the same accuracy and is also just a Vengence weapon. And the V-2 contributed to the rockets motors but the Vanguard provided the guidance system. Even though Goddard died in 1945, his Vanguard (USN) had the most accurate guidance system. You may claim the inventions and accomplishments for those countries Germany over ran but you have a real problem with the Brits and Americans accomplishments since you failed to over run them. Although Germany stole both of them blind before 1940.

If you are up for serious debate, you must stick to the facts.

One of the things I have noted from your type of people is you seem to rewite history to meet your own ends. You can't rewrite history. It can't be changed. That is, unless you have a time machine. Since that doesn't exist yet (if ever) you have to stay within histories guidelines.

I showed you how Germany could have gotten the resources but since the German Leadership was so bigoted, that never came to pass. The real exotic resources were all controlled by inferior races like African and Slavs. By working with these two groups, Germany could have lasted until 1946 but not a day past that since the US would have gone nuclear and you don't clean that mess up and be in operation the next day. Or the next week or even the next year.

The War could have ended in 1941 had Germany sued for peace and stopped attacking Britain and never attacked the Soviet Union. They would have kept France and surrounding countries as their sat possessions. The US would never have entered the war against Germany if Germany had already sued for peace. Japan is another matter and Japan standing alone would have been taken out much quicker. By treating the "Inferior Beings" as equals even if you may think that they aren't, Germany's rocket and Jets would have progressed into something that would make them a world leader even today. The resources would have been available and the Jumo and BMW engines would have been successful with at least a 50 hour TTO instead of having trouble even making 10 hours (Germany claimed 25 hours but that's been proven incorrect).

Since all those mistakes were made and more, there is no way in hell that there could have been a Luft'46. It ended exactly the way it was predestined to end and in exactly the same time. The only changes that might have happened was the US and Britain to continue to Berlin instead of stopping where they did. The world would have been a much better place today. My Father said that when they pushed into Germany, they were met with very little resistance from the Civilians. He said they were very helpful even. The Civilians understood that they were going to be conquered at that point and the only choice they had was, By Whom. But Roosevelt and Churchill made the agreement to stop where they stopped and allowed the Soviets to go a lot further than they should have.

I put this message base out to see just how off the mark you could get. You didn't let me down. You want your Luft'46 but can't come up with the reasons why it would have happened. Since most of the real mistakes were made before 1943, there could not have been any Luft'46.

Beside the usual claims you make you missed the part of history where France and Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way round. That it was Germany in the end that launched an invasion is due to the allies only launched the so called phony war that did not include any serious military action.
The war on the Soviet Union is controversial and the official western version is that Germany suddenly raided unsuspecting shining ligh Stalin. Soldiers report they stormed into the Soviet attack formations pre-empting their imminent attack. The war on the US had two reasons. First, US ships protected convoys to Britain and already fired at German ships, even civilian ships, without any declaration of war. So Germany had to act. Second, it was to assist the ally Japan. The war on Serbia and co was due to other two reasons. First and foremost, the ally Italy attacked Greece without prior notice or approval and when they messed it up they called Germany for help. Second, it was to remove the Brits from the islands and waters there. Same reasons apply for the Africa war.
The war on Poland was a German-Polish issue the west allies had actually nothing to do with and they couldn´t care less when the Soviets invaded Poland too. Both the German and Polish militaries were mobilized already by the way and there is no historic hint or evidence for a sudden raid. It is the typical sole blame game the winners play.

You made up your Luft46 topic and now you blame it on me. I don´t have to explain anything to justify your scenario. As for nuclear bombs, the results of Japan made a repetition unlikely. The General who insisted on nukes in the Korea war was sacked, by the way.

France and Britain declared war on Germany because they had a mutual protection pact with Poland. Germany didn't think they would hence the attack. France and Britain returned in kind.

There is nothing controversial about the attack on the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union actually thought they had an agreement with Germany. Guess they were wrong.

Italy was aligned with Germany and was trying to gobble up oil rich Norther African Countries. If they had been successful the Axis would have more petroleum than it could burn. Of course the Italians screamed to Germany for help. They were getting their asses handed to them.

Had the Germans not attacked the Soviets, I imagine that at some point the Soviet Union would have been added to the list of Axis to be attacked. I don't believe you are aware just how badly Germany hurt the Soviet Union. I can tell you what would have happened to the Soviet Union had they been Axis after a couple of years. You can't invade them but you can bring them to their knees by taking them back to the stoneage. Germany was half a second from doing just that with a weaker force than the Allies even in 1942. Without the lend lease program from the United States, the Soviet Union would have fallen to Germany. The same goes if the allies declare war on the Soviets if they stayed Axis. Except worse. There would have been a third invasion through the Stans. Yes, the Soviets had mobilized but they primarily had really outdated equipment. They were so weak that they had to wait until Germany had all but conquered Poland before they invaded. As weak as Finland was, the Great Soviet Union failed in invading it. The Fins only copitulated later on but kept their freedom by trading tracts of land to the Soviet Union. But Finland was NEVER successfully invaded by the Soviet Union. They went for peace rather than keep fighting. Operation Barbarossa was started in June 41 which the Soviets were busy getting their asses handed to them. But in Sept 41 The US got them under the lend lease and shipped millions upon millions of supplies and equipment to the Soviets. The Soviets had a first class rail system that was in place from the east all the way to Moscow. It was too far away for Germany (another short coming) to attack. And Japan elected not to attack the Soviet Union which would have stopped the lend lease program in it's tracks. Another series of errors. It allowed the Soviets time to get their industry up and running in the East. Until that time, they were primarily using Allied Planes, Tanks, and supplies to fight the war as they had lost their ability to do heavy industry. In 1941/42, the Soviets traded human lives to delay the Germans. Each unit was told to hold their ground no matter what. It resulted in slaughters. Russian People paid for the time so that the Soviets could get up to speed with their lives enmass. Now, what would have happened if the Soviets received NO Lend Lease? They would have been defeated in Moscow and not have been able to come across the Urals. Essentially losing hard with no recovery ability. I imagine that Japan might have attacked at the point since they were not at war with the US quite yet. Japan would have failed because you really can't attack the eastern side of Russia due to terrain. Just ask Nepolian on that one.

As it were, by the middle of 1941 German was invested heavily in invading the Soviet Union. This was a HUGE mistake and pretty well meant that the war would go as it did with no changes to the time or destruction by the Allies. Nothing controversial about it.

AS for the Nuking of Germany, you would be wrong. Dead Wrong. The allies already had Japan pretty well bottle up. Their Island became a prison. With the fall of Okinawa, the B-24s and others could bomb Japan to smithereens. The loss of Japanese Lives would be off the scale. If you get the chance, take a look at this. In Tokyo alone after one 300 cell ship attack, over 100,000 people died, Industry was destroyed, millions were left homeless.




The B-24 did have the range to operate from the Marianas after they were taken. It would have been tight but it could have been done. The B-29 operated easily at that range.

If Japan had not been nuked and Germany had not surrendered 6 months before, Germany would have faced the B-29s loaded with Nukes. The US had 3 nukes ready to go in 1945. Berlin and Munich would have been hit hard. Even the underground bunkers would not have saved anyone in Berlin.

By isolating Japan until Germany was defeated, that means the war might have gone on for another six months only. It would have never made it into 1946. The US would have to make two more bombs for Japan to end that AFTER it brought Germany to it's knees. Germany not making so many mistakes might only add months to it's existance and the outcome would have been even more devastating.

 

[Bleipriester]

Romme didn´t react and they made him kill himself. Deal with it.

The V1 served the purpose of a cruise missile but it was rather a plane than a missile. Get over it.

The radio controlled V2 would have been precise enough. Face the fact. The US got their rocket science from Operation Paperclip and the first thing they were working on was to copy the V2.
The normal V2 had a 600 meter accuracy and its guidance system was used in US missiles later.

PIGA accelerometer - Wikipedia

You sure do like alternative History. Rommel was suspected by Hitler as one of the ones that were plotting Hitlers Assassination. Deal with a little History for a change.

A Cruise Missile IS a remote plane. It flies on wings with tail surfaces. That description fits not only the V-1 but the Tomahawk and kitchen missile. Get over it yourself.

600 meters is almost a half mile in radius. That means it could fall as much as 1 mile from it's intended target. I stand by my original statement that it was accurate enough to hit a small city but not accurate enough to endanger the factory that in or near that city. The V-2 is closely related to the SCUD which has about the same accuracy and is also just a Vengence weapon. And the V-2 contributed to the rockets motors but the Vanguard provided the guidance system. Even though Goddard died in 1945, his Vanguard (USN) had the most accurate guidance system. You may claim the inventions and accomplishments for those countries Germany over ran but you have a real problem with the Brits and Americans accomplishments since you failed to over run them. Although Germany stole both of them blind before 1940.

If you are up for serious debate, you must stick to the facts.

One of the things I have noted from your type of people is you seem to rewite history to meet your own ends. You can't rewrite history. It can't be changed. That is, unless you have a time machine. Since that doesn't exist yet (if ever) you have to stay within histories guidelines.

I showed you how Germany could have gotten the resources but since the German Leadership was so bigoted, that never came to pass. The real exotic resources were all controlled by inferior races like African and Slavs. By working with these two groups, Germany could have lasted until 1946 but not a day past that since the US would have gone nuclear and you don't clean that mess up and be in operation the next day. Or the next week or even the next year.

The War could have ended in 1941 had Germany sued for peace and stopped attacking Britain and never attacked the Soviet Union. They would have kept France and surrounding countries as their sat possessions. The US would never have entered the war against Germany if Germany had already sued for peace. Japan is another matter and Japan standing alone would have been taken out much quicker. By treating the "Inferior Beings" as equals even if you may think that they aren't, Germany's rocket and Jets would have progressed into something that would make them a world leader even today. The resources would have been available and the Jumo and BMW engines would have been successful with at least a 50 hour TTO instead of having trouble even making 10 hours (Germany claimed 25 hours but that's been proven incorrect).

Since all those mistakes were made and more, there is no way in hell that there could have been a Luft'46. It ended exactly the way it was predestined to end and in exactly the same time. The only changes that might have happened was the US and Britain to continue to Berlin instead of stopping where they did. The world would have been a much better place today. My Father said that when they pushed into Germany, they were met with very little resistance from the Civilians. He said they were very helpful even. The Civilians understood that they were going to be conquered at that point and the only choice they had was, By Whom. But Roosevelt and Churchill made the agreement to stop where they stopped and allowed the Soviets to go a lot further than they should have.

I put this message base out to see just how off the mark you could get. You didn't let me down. You want your Luft'46 but can't come up with the reasons why it would have happened. Since most of the real mistakes were made before 1943, there could not have been any Luft'46.

Beside the usual claims you make you missed the part of history where France and Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way round. That it was Germany in the end that launched an invasion is due to the allies only launched the so called phony war that did not include any serious military action.
The war on the Soviet Union is controversial and the official western version is that Germany suddenly raided unsuspecting shining ligh Stalin. Soldiers report they stormed into the Soviet attack formations pre-empting their imminent attack. The war on the US had two reasons. First, US ships protected convoys to Britain and already fired at German ships, even civilian ships, without any declaration of war. So Germany had to act. Second, it was to assist the ally Japan. The war on Serbia and co was due to other two reasons. First and foremost, the ally Italy attacked Greece without prior notice or approval and when they messed it up they called Germany for help. Second, it was to remove the Brits from the islands and waters there. Same reasons apply for the Africa war.
The war on Poland was a German-Polish issue the west allies had actually nothing to do with and they couldn´t care less when the Soviets invaded Poland too. Both the German and Polish militaries were mobilized already by the way and there is no historic hint or evidence for a sudden raid. It is the typical sole blame game the winners play.

You made up your Luft46 topic and now you blame it on me. I don´t have to explain anything to justify your scenario. As for nuclear bombs, the results of Japan made a repetition unlikely. The General who insisted on nukes in the Korea war was sacked, by the way.

France and Britain declared war on Germany because they had a mutual protection pact with Poland. Germany didn't think they would hence the attack. France and Britain returned in kind.

There is nothing controversial about the attack on the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union actually thought they had an agreement with Germany. Guess they were wrong.

Italy was aligned with Germany and was trying to gobble up oil rich Norther African Countries. If they had been successful the Axis would have more petroleum than it could burn. Of course the Italians screamed to Germany for help. They were getting their asses handed to them.

Had the Germans not attacked the Soviets, I imagine that at some point the Soviet Union would have been added to the list of Axis to be attacked. I don't believe you are aware just how badly Germany hurt the Soviet Union. I can tell you what would have happened to the Soviet Union had they been Axis after a couple of years. You can't invade them but you can bring them to their knees by taking them back to the stoneage. Germany was half a second from doing just that with a weaker force than the Allies even in 1942. Without the lend lease program from the United States, the Soviet Union would have fallen to Germany. The same goes if the allies declare war on the Soviets if they stayed Axis. Except worse. There would have been a third invasion through the Stans. Yes, the Soviets had mobilized but they primarily had really outdated equipment. They were so weak that they had to wait until Germany had all but conquered Poland before they invaded. As weak as Finland was, the Great Soviet Union failed in invading it. The Fins only copitulated later on but kept their freedom by trading tracts of land to the Soviet Union. But Finland was NEVER successfully invaded by the Soviet Union. They went for peace rather than keep fighting. Operation Barbarossa was started in June 41 which the Soviets were busy getting their asses handed to them. But in Sept 41 The US got them under the lend lease and shipped millions upon millions of supplies and equipment to the Soviets. The Soviets had a first class rail system that was in place from the east all the way to Moscow. It was too far away for Germany (another short coming) to attack. And Japan elected not to attack the Soviet Union which would have stopped the lend lease program in it's tracks. Another series of errors. It allowed the Soviets time to get their industry up and running in the East. Until that time, they were primarily using Allied Planes, Tanks, and supplies to fight the war as they had lost their ability to do heavy industry. In 1941/42, the Soviets traded human lives to delay the Germans. Each unit was told to hold their ground no matter what. It resulted in slaughters. Russian People paid for the time so that the Soviets could get up to speed with their lives enmass. Now, what would have happened if the Soviets received NO Lend Lease? They would have been defeated in Moscow and not have been able to come across the Urals. Essentially losing hard with no recovery ability. I imagine that Japan might have attacked at the point since they were not at war with the US quite yet. Japan would have failed because you really can't attack the eastern side of Russia due to terrain. Just ask Nepolian on that one.

As it were, by the middle of 1941 German was invested heavily in invading the Soviet Union. This was a HUGE mistake and pretty well meant that the war would go as it did with no changes to the time or destruction by the Allies. Nothing controversial about it.

AS for the Nuking of Germany, you would be wrong. Dead Wrong. The allies already had Japan pretty well bottle up. Their Island became a prison. With the fall of Okinawa, the B-24s and others could bomb Japan to smithereens. The loss of Japanese Lives would be off the scale. If you get the chance, take a look at this. In Tokyo alone after one 300 cell ship attack, over 100,000 people died, Industry was destroyed, millions were left homeless.




The B-24 did have the range to operate from the Marianas after they were taken. It would have been tight but it could have been done. The B-29 operated easily at that range.

If Japan had not been nuked and Germany had not surrendered 6 months before, Germany would have faced the B-29s loaded with Nukes. The US had 3 nukes ready to go in 1945. Berlin and Munich would have been hit hard. Even the underground bunkers would not have saved anyone in Berlin.

By isolating Japan until Germany was defeated, that means the war might have gone on for another six months only. It would have never made it into 1946. The US would have to make two more bombs for Japan to end that AFTER it brought Germany to it's knees. Germany not making so many mistakes might only add months to it's existance and the outcome would have been even more devastating.

You are again far from reality...

"In early-1941 Stalin authorized the State Defense Plan 1941 (DP-41), which along with the Mobilization Plan 1941 (MP-41), called for the deployment of 186 divisions, as the first strategic echelon, in the four military districts[j] of the western Soviet Union that faced the Axis territories; and the deployment of another 51 divisions along the Dvina and Dnieper Rivers as the second strategic echelon under Stavka control, which in the case of a German invasion was tasked to spearhead a Soviet counteroffensive along with the remaining forces of the first echelon.[133] But on 22 June 1941 the first echelon only contained 171 divisions,[k] numbering 2.6–2.9 million;[2][134][135] and the second strategic echelon contained 57 divisions that were still mobilizing, most of which were still understrength.[136] The second echelon was undetected by German intelligence until days after the invasion commenced, in most cases only when German ground forces bumped into them.[136]

At the start of the invasion, the manpower of the Soviet military force that had been mobilized was 5.3–5.5 million,[2][137] and it was still increasing as the Soviet reserve force of 14 million, with at least basic military training, continued to mobilize.[138][139] The Red Army was dispersed and still preparing when the invasion commenced. Their units were often separated and lacked adequate transportation.[140]

The Soviet Union had some 23,000 tanks available of which only 14,700 were combat-ready.[141] Around 11,000 tanks were in the western military districts that faced the German invasion force.[12] Hitler later declared to some of his generals, "If I had known about the Russian tank strength in 1941 I would not have attacked".[142] However, maintenance and readiness standards were very poor; ammunition and radios were in short supply, and many armoured units lacked the trucks for supplies.[143][144] The most advanced Soviet tank models – the KV-1 and T-34 – which were superior to all current German tanks, as well as all designs still in development as of the summer 1941,[145] were not available in large numbers at the time the invasion commenced.[146] Furthermore, in the autumn of 1939, the Soviets disbanded their mechanized corps and partly dispersed their tanks to infantry divisions;[147] but following their observation of the German campaign in France, in late-1940 they began to reorganize most of their armored assets back into mechanized corps with a target strength of 1,031 tanks each.[123] But these large armoured formations were unwieldy, and moreover they were spread out in scattered garrisons, with their subordinate divisions up to 100 kilometres (62 miles) apart.[123] The reorganization was still in progress and incomplete when Barbarossa commenced.[148][147] Soviet tank units were rarely well equipped, and they lacked training and logistical support. Units were sent into combat with no arrangements in place for refueling, ammunition resupply, or personnel replacement. Often, after a single engagement, units were destroyed or rendered ineffective.[140] The Soviet numerical advantage in heavy equipment was thoroughly offset by the superior training and organization of the Wehrmacht.[122]

The Soviet Air Force (VVS) held the numerical advantage with a total of approximately 19,533 aircraft, which made it the largest air force in the world in the summer of 1941.[149] About 7,133–9,100 of these were deployed in the five western military districts,[j][149][12][13]and an additional 1445 were under naval control.[150]

Development of the Soviet Armed Forces
Compiled by Russian military historian Mikhail Meltyukhov from various sources[151]
1 January 1939 22 June 1941 Increase
Divisions calculated 131.5 316.5 140.7%
Personnel 2,485,000 5,774,000 132.4%
Guns and mortars 55,800 117,600 110.7%
Tanks 21,100 25,700 21.8%
Aircraft 7,700 18,700 142.8%
Historians have debated whether Stalin was planning an invasion of German territory in the summer of 1941. The debate began in the late-1980s when Viktor Suvorov published a journal article and later the book Icebreaker in which he stated that Stalin had seen the outbreak of war in Western Europe as an opportunity to spread communist revolutions throughout the continent, and that the Soviet military was being deployed for an imminent attack at the time of the German invasion.[152] This view had also been advanced by former German generals following the war.[153] Suvorov's thesis was fully or partially accepted by some historians, including Valeri Danilov, Joachim Hoffmann, Mikhail Meltyukhov, and Vladimir Nevezhin, and attracted public attention in Germany, Israel, and Russia.[154][155] It has been strongly rejected by most historians of this period,[156][157] and Icebreaker is generally considered to be an "anti-Soviet tract" in Western countries.[158] David Glantz and Gabriel Gorodetsky wrote books to rebut Suvorov's arguments,[159] and most historians believe that Stalin was seeking to avoid war in 1941 as he believed that his military was not ready to fight the German forces.[160]"

Operation Barbarossa - Wikipedia

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Nice cut and paste. Yuo can have hundreds of anything but it it's not ready for combat then it's just taking up space and using resources. The fact is, the Soviets did not attack Poland until AFTER Germany had all but beaten the Poles. With your Nationalist tendancies, I would think that you would accept this as good and move on.


Andusing Wiki for the definitive word doesn't work. Anyone can put anything in Wiki.Even so, it can't be all wrong all the time. In this case, it still doesn't quite say what you want it to say. It leaves out some very important parts. But, hey, without that, you would have to face reality.

 

[Bleipriester]

Nice cut and paste. Yuo can have hundreds of anything but it it's not ready for combat then it's just taking up space and using resources. The fact is, the Soviets did not attack Poland until AFTER Germany had all but beaten the Poles. With your Nationalist tendancies, I would think that you would accept this as good and move on.


Andusing Wiki for the definitive word doesn't work. Anyone can put anything in Wiki.Even so, it can't be all wrong all the time. In this case, it still doesn't quite say what you want it to say. It leaves out some very important parts. But, hey, without that, you would have to face reality.

The wiki is observed by funny guys. If you go there and edit Hitler´s pink unicorns into the article it won´t last long. Additionally, you can check the provided sources. Your revisionist history cannot stand all the facts. We can see how you reduce 11K ready tanks to a few hundred.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Nice cut and paste. Yuo can have hundreds of anything but it it's not ready for combat then it's just taking up space and using resources. The fact is, the Soviets did not attack Poland until AFTER Germany had all but beaten the Poles. With your Nationalist tendancies, I would think that you would accept this as good and move on.


Andusing Wiki for the definitive word doesn't work. Anyone can put anything in Wiki.Even so, it can't be all wrong all the time. In this case, it still doesn't quite say what you want it to say. It leaves out some very important parts. But, hey, without that, you would have to face reality.

The wiki is observed by funny guys. If you go there and edit Hitler´s pink unicorns into the article it won´t last long. Additionally, you can check the provided sources. Your revisionist history cannot stand all the facts. We can see how you reduce 11K ready tanks to a few hundred.

I edited one of the pages that had the cost of many current fighters. It stands today as I edited it. It had been that way for at least 3 years. The fact remaines that those that monitor or fact check Wiki aren't exactly great military historians.

You use a very outlandish condition. No, Hitler was not a Pink Unicorn and that would raise almost anyone's notice. But If I were to put in something where he was WEARING a pink pajama with Unicorns on it it just might escape the monitors notice.

 

[Picaro]

The German rocket program came from the U.S., Goddard's R&D, and the Brits developed jet engines in the mid-1930's, found them too expensive to produce. We had all the time in the world, Germany didn't. So what if they got another year''s worth of getting the crap bombed out of them??? They would have been worse off as a result of extending the war, and in fact would have merely handed over much more of Germany to the Soviets. Having jets would have done exactly squat to stop the land war.