Legalize Drugs, Why?

[JBeukema]

I agree, I'm just thinking if these things are legal instead of seeing college kids party and drink it up, we will be seeing them party and smoke up some crack or crystal meth instead. You can't tell me these things are the same.

They aren't. For one thing, meth and cocaine are addictive and carry the potential of an acute overdose. MJ doesn't do that.

Alcohol does too. Every year we have reports of some poor college kid dying of acute alcohol poisoning.

A fine case for making alcohol illegal


Why haven't we tried that?


Oh, wait...

 

[JBeukema]

No that is not true, kids get a hold of alcohol now because they get it from other kids who have access to it or other adults who supply it for them, legalizing these drugs will just make it easier for kids to get their hands on it.

Not true. Kids already have easy access to any drug they want, just like alcohol.

Yes but if these drugs are legalized the price will go down

Not necessarily.

The pharma corps will charge as much as they can get and there will be regulations

Do you have any idea how cheaply one can make something that will pass as street crank?

 

[JBeukema]

Do we have a french fry epidemic?

You might want to pick a different example

 

[JBeukema]

You can 'O.D.' on water

Water intoxication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JBeukema]

I agree but several posters have said they should go ahead and legalize all of it, meth, heroin, hash, meth, the whole package.

I'm one of them.

Under that paradigm, things like crystal meth and tar heroin would vanish overnight, much the way bathtub gin did after the end of prohibition.

Now, you might in turn point out that there are still moonshiners, and there are....Yet, they do what they do largely as hobbyists and, as an added benefit, Chicago isn't a shooting gallery for people who are in it only for the illicit profits.

But, bathtub gin was taken away because people could now go into a store and buy real gin. Are you saying if we legalized things like marijuana and other lesser drugs, people wouldn't want heroin or crack anymore? I doubt very much that would be the case.

You really think people will want tar if they can buy real heroine?

Or modern crank of they can buy engineer's chocolate?

 

[JBeukema]

If someone is addicted to heroin or crystal meth their lives are pretty much ruined whether they are caught or not.

Not necessarily. Most of the trauma of even harder drugs is related to what they have to do to get them. AND more to the point of the OP there would be more people safe in their homes and safely for the public off of the streets if they could do their chemical relaxation without fear in their own environment. i suspect that many of the "accidents" cited were on the way to or from a clandestine drug deal.

Legalizing drugs may take crime off the streets and people will be able to shoot up in their own homes but it still does not take away the damage that years of heroin, meth, crack etc. abuse will do to an addict, legalizing these things does not automatically fix everything for these people.

Nor does making it illegal


but one of these paths spawns cartels and the other spawns a more open system that''s receptive to addicts and encourages people to seek treatment while subjecting the production of these drugs to FDA and other standards

 

[JBeukema]

I agree but several posters have said they should go ahead and legalize all of it, meth, heroin, hash, meth, the whole package.

I'm one of them.

Under that paradigm, things like crystal meth and tar heroin would vanish overnight, much the way bathtub gin did after the end of prohibition.

Now, you might in turn point out that there are still moonshiners, and there are....Yet, they do what they do largely as hobbyists and, as an added benefit, Chicago isn't a shooting gallery for people who are in it only for the illicit profits.

The grandchildren of the moonshiners are now cooking crank in my old hometown. It doesn't matter what the substance is, as long as it is illegal there will be a market for it and people will use that to try and supplement their incomes (or simply survive in the case of the new "Moonshiners").

That doesn't mean that just making everything legal is the solution to it. At some point asking "what is the net gain for society"? is a legitimate question.

Even the purest of Methamphetamine is a wicked drug.

Just look at China post Opium Wars to see how things can turn out


But


then look at Portugal today to see a very different way things can go when done right

 

[High_Gravity]

Not true. Kids already have easy access to any drug they want, just like alcohol.

Yes but if these drugs are legalized the price will go down

Not necessarily.

The pharma corps will charge as much as they can get and there will be regulations

Do you have any idea how cheaply one can make something that will pass as street crank?

I thought the whole point of legalizing drugs was to make it less expensive and take power away from the drug dealers on the streets? if legalized heroin is still expensive addicts will still kill and rob to acquire it, so what changes?

 

[JBeukema]

But, how do you educate someone on the proper amount of heroin or crystal meth to take?

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

Once the alcohol's in your system...

same thing

 

[High_Gravity]

I'm one of them.

Under that paradigm, things like crystal meth and tar heroin would vanish overnight, much the way bathtub gin did after the end of prohibition.

Now, you might in turn point out that there are still moonshiners, and there are....Yet, they do what they do largely as hobbyists and, as an added benefit, Chicago isn't a shooting gallery for people who are in it only for the illicit profits.

But, bathtub gin was taken away because people could now go into a store and buy real gin. Are you saying if we legalized things like marijuana and other lesser drugs, people wouldn't want heroin or crack anymore? I doubt very much that would be the case.

You really think people will want tar if they can buy real heroine?

Or modern crank of they can buy engineer's chocolate?

That all depends on how expensive those things will be right? if the heroin that is legalized is expensive people may stick to the streets to get their fix.

 

[High_Gravity]

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

Once the alcohol's in your system...

same thing

People can drink 1 beer and stop, not alcoholics but most people can, but once you inject yourself with heroin your in the for the ride, heroin is very addictive. Not everyone who drinks a beer turns into an alcoholic.

 

[JBeukema]

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

Hitting someone with Narcan not only stops the high, it causes a 180 turn so that the person goes through withdrawal and people tend to go a little apeshit when they get it. They try to avoid it unless it's absolutely necessary.

The real problem with opiates is the addictive potential they have. People that are hooked have a hard time kicking it. Legality isn't going to change that. The hallmark of addiction/dependence is using a substance regardless of negative consequences to include loss of job, family, etc. Chemical addiction is real. It's not simply a matter of being "weak". Legalizing opiates only removes criminal sanctions for an addict. It doesn't change the fact that people that are addicted to opiates are non-productive.

I don't think we need to contribute to social Darwinism in the name of individual liberty.

Now where else have I heard this language....?

Removing those criminal sanctions is best for society as a whole.

Just look at the incarceration rate and the social and fiscal costs of maintaining a massive prison system

And do you really think prison addresses the problem of addiction- or the underlying issues that led to abuse?

If you do, I'd love to hear you explain the recidivism rate

And how many people get out of prison for drug possession, have difficulty finding work, and then turn to other crimes to support themselves? The 'War on Drugs' is manufacturing criminals.

 

[JBeukema]

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

Once the alcohol's in your system...

same thing

People can drink 1 beer and stop, not alcoholics but most people can, but once you inject yourself with heroin your in the for the ride, heroin is very addictive. Not everyone who drinks a beer turns into an alcoholic.

So if I shoot up one cc, I will necessarily shoot up another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then ad infinitim?

once any drug is in you're system, you're in for the ride- what's your point?

 

[JBeukema]

I'm one of them.

Under that paradigm, things like crystal meth and tar heroin would vanish overnight, much the way bathtub gin did after the end of prohibition.

Now, you might in turn point out that there are still moonshiners, and there are....Yet, they do what they do largely as hobbyists and, as an added benefit, Chicago isn't a shooting gallery for people who are in it only for the illicit profits.

But, bathtub gin was taken away because people could now go into a store and buy real gin. Are you saying if we legalized things like marijuana and other lesser drugs, people wouldn't want heroin or crack anymore? I doubt very much that would be the case.

That is the case though. Of course there are allways going to be a few who go on to harder things. But the majority won't and if the stuff is legal you don't see a lot of meth use because the cocaine (especially pure) is actually cheaper to get, give a better effect and in general has no bad side effects.

If you have a choice of buying moonshine from some garage operation or fine whiskey from a store with a government stamp on it...and the good stuff is cheaper, why would you ever buy the crap that can kill you?

'cause fuck the tax man?

 

[JBeukema]

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

Hitting someone with Narcan not only stops the high, it causes a 180 turn so that the person goes through withdrawal and people tend to go a little apeshit when they get it. They try to avoid it unless it's absolutely necessary.

The real problem with opiates is the addictive potential they have. People that are hooked have a hard time kicking it. Legality isn't going to change that. The hallmark of addiction/dependence is using a substance regardless of negative consequences to include loss of job, family, etc. Chemical addiction is real. It's not simply a matter of being "weak". Legalizing opiates only removes criminal sanctions for an addict. It doesn't change the fact that people that are addicted to opiates are non-productive.

I don't think we need to contribute to social Darwinism in the name of individual liberty.

I injured my back about seven years ago and the pain was off the charts. They prescribed pain killers progressively stronger until I was popping methadone like M & M's. I was thoroughly addicted while HAVING to take them for about 3 months then it took about three weeks to wean myself clean off them after my back healed. The addiction to opiates is over rated. Now cigarettes... That's a whole horse of a different color.

<!-- insert Limbaugh anti-drug rant here -->

 

[High_Gravity]

Once the alcohol's in your system...

same thing

People can drink 1 beer and stop, not alcoholics but most people can, but once you inject yourself with heroin your in the for the ride, heroin is very addictive. Not everyone who drinks a beer turns into an alcoholic.

So if I shoot up one cc, I will necessarily shoot up another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then ad infinitim?

once any drug is in you're system, you're in for the ride- what's your point?

My point is some drugs are more addictive than others, alot of people have smoked marijuana one time and than never had the urge to do it again. Drugs like heroin and crystal meth are very addictive and take over the lives of the people addicted to them.

 

[JBeukema]

I'm one of them.

Under that paradigm, things like crystal meth and tar heroin would vanish overnight, much the way bathtub gin did after the end of prohibition.

Now, you might in turn point out that there are still moonshiners, and there are....Yet, they do what they do largely as hobbyists and, as an added benefit, Chicago isn't a shooting gallery for people who are in it only for the illicit profits.

The grandchildren of the moonshiners are now cooking crank in my old hometown. It doesn't matter what the substance is, as long as it is illegal there will be a market for it and people will use that to try and supplement their incomes (or simply survive in the case of the new "Moonshiners").

That doesn't mean that just making everything legal is the solution to it. At some point asking "what is the net gain for society"? is a legitimate question.

Even the purest of Methamphetamine is a wicked drug.

The net gain for society is you no longer have completely innocent bystanders killed because of wars over drug selling territory. You don't have dipshits breaking into others houses to feed their habit, you don't have drug addled halfwits abusing their children because they are afraid to seek help. The list is a pretty long one if you just think about it.

Those two will likely happen regardless

hell, the latter happens with alcoholics all the time

 

[JBeukema]

People can drink 1 beer and stop, not alcoholics but most people can, but once you inject yourself with heroin your in the for the ride, heroin is very addictive. Not everyone who drinks a beer turns into an alcoholic.

So if I shoot up one cc, I will necessarily shoot up another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then ad infinitim?

once any drug is in you're system, you're in for the ride- what's your point?

My point is some drugs are more addictive than others, alot of people have smoked marijuana one time and than never had the urge to do it again. Drugs like heroin and crystal meth are very addictive and take over the lives of the people addicted to them.

And making them illegal magically made it all go away?

Or it simply added the problems of drug cartels and territory wars?

 

[High_Gravity]

So if I shoot up one cc, I will necessarily shoot up another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then another cc and then ad infinitim?

once any drug is in you're system, you're in for the ride- what's your point?

My point is some drugs are more addictive than others, alot of people have smoked marijuana one time and than never had the urge to do it again. Drugs like heroin and crystal meth are very addictive and take over the lives of the people addicted to them.

And making them illegal magically made it all go away?

Or it simply added the problems of drug cartels and territory wars?

I'm not saying the way things are right now is the right thing but, making drugs legal will take away power from the drug dealers and cartels but still does nothing to curb the problem of addicts unless more treatment programs are put into place also.

 

[JBeukema]

That very well maybe, I havent met one though. I know a few people who are heroin addicts and they are barely hanging onto basic jobs like working at fast food to support their habits and shacking up with other addicts, I definently wouldn't consider them valuable members of society.

I can say that for some of the booze hounds I've worked with.

There are plenty of congressman, governors, Military commanders, professional athletes, doctors and lawyers who are alcoholics, how many heroin addicts are in prominent positions? heroin addicts may be do ok as Rock Stars or something but what else can they do?

Right-wing radio talk show hosts?