Lakewood Church Stops Womans Funeral Because She Was Gay (It Was The Right Decision)

[Katzndogz]

Why wasnt it at the funeral home to begin with? She didnt go to church... inevitably Preacher would have said something that angered them anyway....... just seems like poor planning .... or an effort to manufacture a story

Ding Ding Ding--we have a winner.

The minister was wrong for doing what he did, but I suspect that he played right into the hands of people looking to make some kind of anti-religion statement, among other things.

The most telling statement from the article is "Collier's friends say they still haven't been reimbursed by New Hope Ministry for the cost of the funeral" There is no reason for the church to pay for a funeral for somebody. They seemingly are just trying to extort money from a church by shaming it out of them as best as I can tell.

How can they extort money from a church that didn't perform a service, and didn't spend a cent, and had pocketed the money for 2 weeks in the bank.

They paid for the use of the facility and now they want the church to pay for the whole funeral based on my reading of the various articles. I have not seen any indication that they were paid two weeks in advance. That would be quite the delay in funeral arrangements.

They want the church to pay for the whole funeral????? I thought they just wanted the money they paid back?

 

[emilynghiem]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

 

[emilynghiem]

Why wasnt it at the funeral home to begin with? She didnt go to church... inevitably Preacher would have said something that angered them anyway....... just seems like poor planning .... or an effort to manufacture a story

Ding Ding Ding--we have a winner.

The minister was wrong for doing what he did, but I suspect that he played right into the hands of people looking to make some kind of anti-religion statement, among other things.

The most telling statement from the article is "Collier's friends say they still haven't been reimbursed by New Hope Ministry for the cost of the funeral" There is no reason for the church to pay for a funeral for somebody. They seemingly are just trying to extort money from a church by shaming it out of them as best as I can tell.

How can they extort money from a church that didn't perform a service, and didn't spend a cent, and had pocketed the money for 2 weeks in the bank.

They paid for the use of the facility and now they want the church to pay for the whole funeral based on my reading of the various articles. I have not seen any indication that they were paid two weeks in advance. That would be quite the delay in funeral arrangements.

They want the church to pay for the whole funeral????? I thought they just wanted the money they paid back?

I recommend doing a gofundme fundraiser, and just get help to chip in and pay whatever costs. I think it is more important to save the relationship and not fight over a mutual conflict and the money. it is more important to restore good faith relations.

 

[Katzndogz]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

Dear Tipsycatlover
I agree the pastor has the right to defend his religious beliefs and practice.

The problem is the family had already contracted and paid the church,
and these conflicts were not brought up or agreed upon in advance.

I respect the family and bereaved for agreeing to move to resolve
the conflict over the photos being displayed.

But this should have been discussed in advance before the
contract was signed and paid on.

That contract is under civil laws. So the spirit of social contracts
is CONSENT. There was not Informed Consent and full agreement,
so there was a problem with the contract.

It should not have been signed between these parties to begin
with because they had clashing beliefs.

Both sides have rights to their beliefs.
Neither is wrong in their own context.
They should just NEVER have contracted with
each other since they did not REALLY agree.

Blaming one side just incites equal reaction to blame the other.

So THAT's why when things go wrong, Jesus in the Bible
says to forgive 77 times 77. if both sides follow the spirit of Christ
and divine forgiveness the relations can be healed and good faith restored.

So that is God's will, that we forgive and heal where forgiveness
allows in God's love and wisdom to correct all wrongs and cast out all fear.

Holding on to blame or judgment or resentment BLOCKS God's will
from entering into the relationship and correcting/healing it.

As Christian believers we are to forgive first in order to
open up our relations to receive corrections in truth from God.

Where we AGREE in Christ, that's where God's will is established among us.
That is done in the spirit of love, and not in any kind of ill will, negative
fear rejection or division. We must make corrections in CHRIST which
means forgiveness first, then the corrections and resolutions follow.

First you describe yourself as a secular gentile. A non theist. Then you say "we Christians ". Make up your mind.

 

[Gracie]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

Dear Tipsycatlover
I agree the pastor has the right to defend his religious beliefs and practice.

The problem is the family had already contracted and paid the church,
and these conflicts were not brought up or agreed upon in advance.

I respect the family and bereaved for agreeing to move to resolve
the conflict over the photos being displayed.

But this should have been discussed in advance before the
contract was signed and paid on.

That contract is under civil laws. So the spirit of social contracts
is CONSENT. There was not Informed Consent and full agreement,
so there was a problem with the contract.

It should not have been signed between these parties to begin
with because they had clashing beliefs.

Both sides have rights to their beliefs.
Neither is wrong in their own context.
They should just NEVER have contracted with
each other since they did not REALLY agree.

Blaming one side just incites equal reaction to blame the other.

So THAT's why when things go wrong, Jesus in the Bible
says to forgive 77 times 77. if both sides follow the spirit of Christ
and divine forgiveness the relations can be healed and good faith restored.

So that is God's will, that we forgive and heal where forgiveness
allows in God's love and wisdom to correct all wrongs and cast out all fear.

Holding on to blame or judgment or resentment BLOCKS God's will
from entering into the relationship and correcting/healing it.

As Christian believers we are to forgive first in order to
open up our relations to receive corrections in truth from God.

Where we AGREE in Christ, that's where God's will is established among us.
That is done in the spirit of love, and not in any kind of ill will, negative
fear rejection or division. We must make corrections in CHRIST which
means forgiveness first, then the corrections and resolutions follow.

What happened to plain ol' compassion, empathy and conscience? Those people lost someone they loved...and had to stop services and move the BODY somewhere else due to the ...cough cough "pastor"...JUDGING someone. They are DEAD. Shame on him. Just shame on him and whomever caused this distress at the time of mourning a loved ones death and services.

 

[Katzndogz]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

I started out with criminal law. Drifted off to personal injury. As it is almost impossible to make a living in personal injury without fraud and my clients were demanding fraud I went to family law. I just got to hating people too much to continue. I hated the clients, the other lawyers and the judges. So I went back to school after 35 years and became a dog groomer. My husband talked to the customers and I took care of the dogs. I hated people so much that I couldn't even talk to the dog owners. Now I do legal consulting. I don't see anyone. I consult and I paint.

To answer your question, you are far an away on the wrong track. Every contract contains a choice of law provision already. It provides the state law to be applied. It may contain a provision for arbitration. Arbitration can be binding meaning that there is no right to sue if you don't like the decision or non binding meaning you can sue if you lose but the decision will be evidence in any lawsuit.

If you mean to start writing contracts with an boiler plate arbitration provision, do not do that unless you intend to retire to a prison cell. Writing contracts with legal provisions is called practicing law without a license and a crime in all 50 states.

I cannot imagine a contract without a choice of law provision but if there was one it would be legal malpractice. It's the fault of the lawyer.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

If it was a mosque there would be no thread and no left wing posts.

 

[Gracie]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

I started out with criminal law. Drifted off to personal injury. As it is almost impossible to make a living in personal injury without fraud and my clients were demanding fraud I went to family law. I just got to hating people too much to continue. I hated the clients, the other lawyers and the judges. So I went back to school after 35 years and became a dog groomer. My husband talked to the customers and I took care of the dogs. I hated people so much that I couldn't even talk to the dog owners. Now I do legal consulting. I don't see anyone. I consult and I paint.

To answer your question, you are far an away on the wrong track. Every contract contains a choice of law provision already. It provides the state law to be applied. It may contain a provision for arbitration. Arbitration can be binding meaning that there is no right to sue if you don't like the decision or non binding meaning you can sue if you lose but the decision will be evidence in any lawsuit.

If you mean to start writing contracts with an boiler plate arbitration provision, do not do that unless you intend to retire to a prison cell. Writing contracts with legal provisions is called practicing law without a license and a crime in all 50 states.

I cannot imagine a contract without a choice of law provision but if there was one it would be legal malpractice. It's the fault of the lawyer.

Don't feel lonely, TCL. I prefer the company of my furbabies than I do people. My real life friends (3) live far away so we just email now and then. Once in a blue moon, a phone call. My true best friends don't speak english or actually talk at all except by wagging their tails. I am much happier this way. Actually..I have always been this way..even as a kid.

 

[emilynghiem]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

I started out with criminal law. Drifted off to personal injury. As it is almost impossible to make a living in personal injury without fraud and my clients were demanding fraud I went to family law. I just got to hating people too much to continue. I hated the clients, the other lawyers and the judges. So I went back to school after 35 years and became a dog groomer. My husband talked to the customers and I took care of the dogs. I hated people so much that I couldn't even talk to the dog owners. Now I do legal consulting. I don't see anyone. I consult and I paint.

To answer your question, you are far an away on the wrong track. Every contract contains a choice of law provision already. It provides the state law to be applied. It may contain a provision for arbitration. Arbitration can be binding meaning that there is no right to sue if you don't like the decision or non binding meaning you can sue if you lose but the decision will be evidence in any lawsuit.

If you mean to start writing contracts with an boiler plate arbitration provision, do not do that unless you intend to retire to a prison cell. Writing contracts with legal provisions is called practicing law without a license and a crime in all 50 states.

I cannot imagine a contract without a choice of law provision but if there was one it would be legal malpractice. It's the fault of the lawyer.

Thanks!
OK so how to go about putting together a PROPER legal team to write a SAMPLE
mediation clause, similar to an arbitration clause, that people CAN use in their legal contracts.

Is there already something like that on legalzoom or NOLO press just SAMPLE langauge?

So for example when a customer first comes into a doctor's or dental office
they fill out forms. So can there be a form that people understand is a consent
form that is legally binding that EXPLAINS, just like arbitration,
but with agreement to use FREE MEDIATION instead of that arbitration stuff that I still find too restrictive.

But if businesses WANT to state arbitration, that's fine, too.
Many online systems have that in the terms of agreement for users, some arbitration clause.

What is the proper way to do this?
Can it be offered as a SUGGESTION with SAMPLE language
or do you have to state up front to go through a lawyer this is not licensed legal advice?

Are you saying I could only "suggest in general" to consult a lawyer to set up
"a form for agreeing to arbitration or mediation only," and I cannot even post "samples that other people
have used" because that would be seen as providing legal advice?

Thank you very much. And I still want to encourage you to serve as a consultant in this area
since the need has increased due to lawsuits coming out. is there a nonprofit network to help small businesses?
I would be happy to help with fundraising to cover costs so the assistance for mediation remains free.

 

[emilynghiem]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

Dear Tipsycatlover
I agree the pastor has the right to defend his religious beliefs and practice.

The problem is the family had already contracted and paid the church,
and these conflicts were not brought up or agreed upon in advance.

I respect the family and bereaved for agreeing to move to resolve
the conflict over the photos being displayed.

But this should have been discussed in advance before the
contract was signed and paid on.

That contract is under civil laws. So the spirit of social contracts
is CONSENT. There was not Informed Consent and full agreement,
so there was a problem with the contract.

It should not have been signed between these parties to begin
with because they had clashing beliefs.

Both sides have rights to their beliefs.
Neither is wrong in their own context.
They should just NEVER have contracted with
each other since they did not REALLY agree.

Blaming one side just incites equal reaction to blame the other.

So THAT's why when things go wrong, Jesus in the Bible
says to forgive 77 times 77. if both sides follow the spirit of Christ
and divine forgiveness the relations can be healed and good faith restored.

So that is God's will, that we forgive and heal where forgiveness
allows in God's love and wisdom to correct all wrongs and cast out all fear.

Holding on to blame or judgment or resentment BLOCKS God's will
from entering into the relationship and correcting/healing it.

As Christian believers we are to forgive first in order to
open up our relations to receive corrections in truth from God.

Where we AGREE in Christ, that's where God's will is established among us.
That is done in the spirit of love, and not in any kind of ill will, negative
fear rejection or division. We must make corrections in CHRIST which
means forgiveness first, then the corrections and resolutions follow.

First you describe yourself as a secular gentile. A non theist. Then you say "we Christians ". Make up your mind.

Luddly Neddite if you haven't figured it out by now I am both.

I am both a secular Gentile who favors natural laws like Buddhism the Constitution, science and psychology. And I also believe in Christ Jesus as representing the PROCESS of fulfilling the spirit of the laws, for both the church religious believers and laws, and for the state and natural laws of secular gentiles.

I know other people who are both Buddhist and Christian,
Constitutionalist and Christian, Muslim and Christian,
even Pagan and Christian, and one Atheist I consider a neighbor in Christ though he doesn't call himself Christian.

These are NOT contradictory. Just because they are not in the Bible doesn't mean they aren't somebody's language for the laws. The same way Constitutional laws are NOT in the Bible but can be complementary with Christianity, so can all other religious or secular laws be complementary and not in conflict.

Luddly the ONLY practices I find that clash with Christianity
are the OCCULT negative forces that manipulate nature in ways that clash, sometimes dangerously and disastrously. Things that are unnatural and based on evil/ill will are going to clash with natural laws and energy based on good will for all humanity. I believe this difference in energy, and the clash between them,
can be proven by science, so I don't expect people to take that on faith when it can be proven scientifically with the right technology to measure and demonstrate the difference.

You can be both, and I am proof of that.

I am Christian in spirit, but my native language is secular and natural laws
that I prefer. To me the Bible is like a second language and I usually reserve that
for people who need to communicate in that as their native language.

With fellow Constitutionalists and secularists, of course, I prefer to speak in natural terms
and not use all that symbolism that I have to translate to make sense of. Like translating
"Christ Jesus" to mean "Restorative Justice" and having to explain the whole process....

 

[Katzndogz]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

I started out with criminal law. Drifted off to personal injury. As it is almost impossible to make a living in personal injury without fraud and my clients were demanding fraud I went to family law. I just got to hating people too much to continue. I hated the clients, the other lawyers and the judges. So I went back to school after 35 years and became a dog groomer. My husband talked to the customers and I took care of the dogs. I hated people so much that I couldn't even talk to the dog owners. Now I do legal consulting. I don't see anyone. I consult and I paint.

To answer your question, you are far an away on the wrong track. Every contract contains a choice of law provision already. It provides the state law to be applied. It may contain a provision for arbitration. Arbitration can be binding meaning that there is no right to sue if you don't like the decision or non binding meaning you can sue if you lose but the decision will be evidence in any lawsuit.

If you mean to start writing contracts with an boiler plate arbitration provision, do not do that unless you intend to retire to a prison cell. Writing contracts with legal provisions is called practicing law without a license and a crime in all 50 states.

I cannot imagine a contract without a choice of law provision but if there was one it would be legal malpractice. It's the fault of the lawyer.

Thanks!
OK so how to go about putting together a PROPER legal team to write a SAMPLE
mediation clause, similar to an arbitration clause, that people CAN use in their legal contracts.

Is there already something like that on legalzoom or NOLO press just SAMPLE langauge?

So for example when a customer first comes into a doctor's or dental office
they fill out forms. So can there be a form that people understand is a consent
form that is legally binding that EXPLAINS, just like arbitration,
but with agreement to use FREE MEDIATION instead of that arbitration stuff that I still find too restrictive.

But if businesses WANT to state arbitration, that's fine, too.
Many online systems have that in the terms of agreement for users, some arbitration clause.

What is the proper way to do this?
Can it be offered as a SUGGESTION with SAMPLE language
or do you have to state up front to go through a lawyer this is not licensed legal advice?

Are you saying I could only "suggest in general" to consult a lawyer to set up
"a form for agreeing to arbitration or mediation only," and I cannot even post "samples that other people
have used" because that would be seen as providing legal advice?

Thank you very much. And I still want to encourage you to serve as a consultant in this area
since the need has increased due to lawsuits coming out. is there a nonprofit network to help small businesses?
I would be happy to help with fundraising to cover costs so the assistance for mediation remains free.

Emily I am honestly trying to help you. This is not something that you can do nor should you. Legalzoom is actually a network of lawyers in every state. Legalzoom is actually a referral service. For one thing the law in every state is different. Not only is the law different but the contracts for every circumstance is different. Do not post samples of what other people have done. What's good in Georgia may not apply in Oklahoma.

Lawsuits cannot be avoided. They happen in the most concrete of contracts. It is up to the parties who enter into the contract to see to their own legal well being.

In this situation no one here knows what happened or how much money the church was paid. No one knows what the agreement said or what provisions it contained.

 

[emilynghiem]

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

I started out with criminal law. Drifted off to personal injury. As it is almost impossible to make a living in personal injury without fraud and my clients were demanding fraud I went to family law. I just got to hating people too much to continue. I hated the clients, the other lawyers and the judges. So I went back to school after 35 years and became a dog groomer. My husband talked to the customers and I took care of the dogs. I hated people so much that I couldn't even talk to the dog owners. Now I do legal consulting. I don't see anyone. I consult and I paint.

To answer your question, you are far an away on the wrong track. Every contract contains a choice of law provision already. It provides the state law to be applied. It may contain a provision for arbitration. Arbitration can be binding meaning that there is no right to sue if you don't like the decision or non binding meaning you can sue if you lose but the decision will be evidence in any lawsuit.

If you mean to start writing contracts with an boiler plate arbitration provision, do not do that unless you intend to retire to a prison cell. Writing contracts with legal provisions is called practicing law without a license and a crime in all 50 states.

I cannot imagine a contract without a choice of law provision but if there was one it would be legal malpractice. It's the fault of the lawyer.

Thanks!
OK so how to go about putting together a PROPER legal team to write a SAMPLE
mediation clause, similar to an arbitration clause, that people CAN use in their legal contracts.

Is there already something like that on legalzoom or NOLO press just SAMPLE langauge?

So for example when a customer first comes into a doctor's or dental office
they fill out forms. So can there be a form that people understand is a consent
form that is legally binding that EXPLAINS, just like arbitration,
but with agreement to use FREE MEDIATION instead of that arbitration stuff that I still find too restrictive.

But if businesses WANT to state arbitration, that's fine, too.
Many online systems have that in the terms of agreement for users, some arbitration clause.

What is the proper way to do this?
Can it be offered as a SUGGESTION with SAMPLE language
or do you have to state up front to go through a lawyer this is not licensed legal advice?

Are you saying I could only "suggest in general" to consult a lawyer to set up
"a form for agreeing to arbitration or mediation only," and I cannot even post "samples that other people
have used" because that would be seen as providing legal advice?

Thank you very much. And I still want to encourage you to serve as a consultant in this area
since the need has increased due to lawsuits coming out. is there a nonprofit network to help small businesses?
I would be happy to help with fundraising to cover costs so the assistance for mediation remains free.

Emily I am honestly trying to help you. This is not something that you can do nor should you. Legalzoom is actually a network of lawyers in every state. Legalzoom is actually a referral service. For one thing the law in every state is different. Not only is the law different but the contracts for every circumstance is different. Do not post samples of what other people have done. What's good in Georgia may not apply in Oklahoma.

Lawsuits cannot be avoided. They happen in the most concrete of contracts. It is up to the parties who enter into the contract to see to their own legal well being.

In this situation no one here knows what happened or how much money the church was paid. No one knows what the agreement said or what provisions it contained.

Thanks Tipsycatlover
I understand even NOLO and other such services have come under fire and extreme scrutiny
to make sure they are not "practicing law or giving legal advice without a license"

Still, there are SAMPLE trusts, wills and wording for tenant/lease agreements posted online for people to copy
to write up their own agreements.

If there are "referral services" and networks that don't advise or practice law,
that is also a good idea -- to have a free, voluntary/pro-bono network of consultants or lawyers
willing to refer business owners IN ADVANCE.

and YES I do believe lawsuits CAN be prevented IN ADVANCE
if these businesses all write up an application form for new customers
to read and sign BEFORE contracting to do any work or provide any services.

The CONFLICTS can't be prevented, where people have religious differences.

But they DON'T HAVE TO DO BUSINESS TOGETHER if they screen each other out IN ADVANCE.

So the waiver would serve as a screening device.

YES it has to be written properly, just like an arbitration agreement that are part of the Terms of Services.

So the Business has the right not to even accept a contract if the customer won't
sign the MEDIATION agreement in advance. And work out all conflicts IN ADVANCE.

So places that do weddings or funerals can agree IN ADVANCE how to handle conflicts.

For services, the parties can agree IN ADVANCE what happens if a guest or incident
suddenly disrupts the services, if a conflict arises (such as the conflict over the photos
deemed inappropriate for display at THAT church, or what if a family member shows up in inappropriate dress or protestors act up outside), then what is the PROCESS.
And the parties AGREE IN ADVANCE. If they can't agree, they already KNOW not to do business together.

So in this case, if the parties had to work through a conflict resolution agreement IN ADVANCE,
either the pastor would be confronted about his issue with the photos being displayed in advance, and then the contract would stop there (with the money or deposit refunded if that is what the customer insisted before signing, and if the company didn't agree the customer would never sign up and never give the money in the first place!!!!),
or if they didn't find out about the clash until the services started, they would have already AGREED do they continue with the services or do they halt them and stop right there, in which case the customer would not sign the contract if this is the practice of that church to halt the services.

So either way, they either identify the conflict in advance and/or agree not to contract together
if they don't agree how to handle the conflict. All this can be screened in advance.

And yes, if you are saying that no such contract, not even a sample can be offered as a SUGGESTION, except through a legal contract with a licensed professional etc. that is fine. That can be included in the SUGGESTION to set up MEDIATION agreements in advance, before agreeing to work with ANY company or ANY customer.

Frankly I think that abridges free speech if you cannot even SUGGEST
mediation agreements publicly in advance.

It is NOT practicing medicine without a license to advise people not to smoke in front of people with asthma.

Suggesting and explaining WHY I recommend mediation instead of lawsuits
is just pure common sense, and should require paying an attorney to explain why mediation
will preserve and protect equal interests and cost both parties less money, hassle and stress.

That's just explaining why conflict resolution works better than suing and gambling on a win/lose situation
when consensus can be sought that respects both sides to create a win/win situation.

This is one area that I feel the legal practice monopolizes "democratic due process" and FU it up.

This is why the legal system gets abused to incite and depend on lawsuits to make money for lawyers
by NOT preventing conflicts but almost ENCOURAGING them.

There is not enough focus on PREVENTING lawsuits, so it seems a conflict of interest
for lawyers to keep making and enforcing laws that benefit them and reinforce their monopoly.

Would rather train and assist people in FREE MEDIATION and conflict resolution
to protect free speech, right to petition, and equal exercise of beliefs from infringement.

 

[hipeter924]

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

I started out with criminal law. Drifted off to personal injury. As it is almost impossible to make a living in personal injury without fraud and my clients were demanding fraud I went to family law. I just got to hating people too much to continue. I hated the clients, the other lawyers and the judges. So I went back to school after 35 years and became a dog groomer. My husband talked to the customers and I took care of the dogs. I hated people so much that I couldn't even talk to the dog owners. Now I do legal consulting. I don't see anyone. I consult and I paint.

To answer your question, you are far an away on the wrong track. Every contract contains a choice of law provision already. It provides the state law to be applied. It may contain a provision for arbitration. Arbitration can be binding meaning that there is no right to sue if you don't like the decision or non binding meaning you can sue if you lose but the decision will be evidence in any lawsuit.

If you mean to start writing contracts with an boiler plate arbitration provision, do not do that unless you intend to retire to a prison cell. Writing contracts with legal provisions is called practicing law without a license and a crime in all 50 states.

I cannot imagine a contract without a choice of law provision but if there was one it would be legal malpractice. It's the fault of the lawyer.

Thanks!
OK so how to go about putting together a PROPER legal team to write a SAMPLE
mediation clause, similar to an arbitration clause, that people CAN use in their legal contracts.

Is there already something like that on legalzoom or NOLO press just SAMPLE langauge?

So for example when a customer first comes into a doctor's or dental office
they fill out forms. So can there be a form that people understand is a consent
form that is legally binding that EXPLAINS, just like arbitration,
but with agreement to use FREE MEDIATION instead of that arbitration stuff that I still find too restrictive.

But if businesses WANT to state arbitration, that's fine, too.
Many online systems have that in the terms of agreement for users, some arbitration clause.

What is the proper way to do this?
Can it be offered as a SUGGESTION with SAMPLE language
or do you have to state up front to go through a lawyer this is not licensed legal advice?

Are you saying I could only "suggest in general" to consult a lawyer to set up
"a form for agreeing to arbitration or mediation only," and I cannot even post "samples that other people
have used" because that would be seen as providing legal advice?

Thank you very much. And I still want to encourage you to serve as a consultant in this area
since the need has increased due to lawsuits coming out. is there a nonprofit network to help small businesses?
I would be happy to help with fundraising to cover costs so the assistance for mediation remains free.

Emily I am honestly trying to help you. This is not something that you can do nor should you. Legalzoom is actually a network of lawyers in every state. Legalzoom is actually a referral service. For one thing the law in every state is different. Not only is the law different but the contracts for every circumstance is different. Do not post samples of what other people have done. What's good in Georgia may not apply in Oklahoma.

Lawsuits cannot be avoided. They happen in the most concrete of contracts. It is up to the parties who enter into the contract to see to their own legal well being.

In this situation no one here knows what happened or how much money the church was paid. No one knows what the agreement said or what provisions it contained.

Ultimately if either party went to court to 'settle the issue', the legal fees would far exceed the possible gain. The judge at best might be able to rule it was unfair for a church to cancel a funeral, and then deduct a refund. But when all is said and done, it would cost more to settle in court than if family and friends rented another venue.

 

[NLT]

It's like you fucking morons think you're going to get gay cooties if you're around the homos.

sheesh

How are your aids treatments going howey? hope all is well.

 

[Katzndogz]

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

Dear Tipsycatlover: What field of law did you work in?
This whole mess over Christian beliefs has created a great need for mediators
to stop lawsuits and harassment of Christian businesses. I am VERY concerned.

I would like to write up WAIVERS for Christian businesses to have all customers
to sign agreeing NOT to sue and only to resolve conflicts through mediation
and consensus to AVOID legal action and expenses. And if they don't agree to mediate and resolve conflicts by consensus, then don't do business because of THAT. And not because of people's beliefs about gay lifestyle, marriage, etc.

Do you have experience in this area of law?

Could you help me write up a short standard WAIVER (similar to an arbitration agreement, but this would be for mediation and consensus to avoid any legal
actions or expenses) where I could post online and circulate to all businesses
to AVOID these harassing conflicts and lawsuits.

You seem to care as much as I do about this, and share concerns for the Christian business owners not to be harassed or sued for their beliefs.

Would you be interested in setting up a network of support for legal or mediation help so businesses can avoid future disasters? If you have any experience in related areas of law, I think that would help. Also help to write laws about the marriage contracts where they don't impose beliefs one way or another; that's another area that is a huge mess right now.... Let me know what you are interested in, and if I can help. I care about this and want to see all such cases resolved by mediation so nobody's beliefs get violated or sued over. Thanks!

I started out with criminal law. Drifted off to personal injury. As it is almost impossible to make a living in personal injury without fraud and my clients were demanding fraud I went to family law. I just got to hating people too much to continue. I hated the clients, the other lawyers and the judges. So I went back to school after 35 years and became a dog groomer. My husband talked to the customers and I took care of the dogs. I hated people so much that I couldn't even talk to the dog owners. Now I do legal consulting. I don't see anyone. I consult and I paint.

To answer your question, you are far an away on the wrong track. Every contract contains a choice of law provision already. It provides the state law to be applied. It may contain a provision for arbitration. Arbitration can be binding meaning that there is no right to sue if you don't like the decision or non binding meaning you can sue if you lose but the decision will be evidence in any lawsuit.

If you mean to start writing contracts with an boiler plate arbitration provision, do not do that unless you intend to retire to a prison cell. Writing contracts with legal provisions is called practicing law without a license and a crime in all 50 states.

I cannot imagine a contract without a choice of law provision but if there was one it would be legal malpractice. It's the fault of the lawyer.

Thanks!
OK so how to go about putting together a PROPER legal team to write a SAMPLE
mediation clause, similar to an arbitration clause, that people CAN use in their legal contracts.

Is there already something like that on legalzoom or NOLO press just SAMPLE langauge?

So for example when a customer first comes into a doctor's or dental office
they fill out forms. So can there be a form that people understand is a consent
form that is legally binding that EXPLAINS, just like arbitration,
but with agreement to use FREE MEDIATION instead of that arbitration stuff that I still find too restrictive.

But if businesses WANT to state arbitration, that's fine, too.
Many online systems have that in the terms of agreement for users, some arbitration clause.

What is the proper way to do this?
Can it be offered as a SUGGESTION with SAMPLE language
or do you have to state up front to go through a lawyer this is not licensed legal advice?

Are you saying I could only "suggest in general" to consult a lawyer to set up
"a form for agreeing to arbitration or mediation only," and I cannot even post "samples that other people
have used" because that would be seen as providing legal advice?

Thank you very much. And I still want to encourage you to serve as a consultant in this area
since the need has increased due to lawsuits coming out. is there a nonprofit network to help small businesses?
I would be happy to help with fundraising to cover costs so the assistance for mediation remains free.

Emily I am honestly trying to help you. This is not something that you can do nor should you. Legalzoom is actually a network of lawyers in every state. Legalzoom is actually a referral service. For one thing the law in every state is different. Not only is the law different but the contracts for every circumstance is different. Do not post samples of what other people have done. What's good in Georgia may not apply in Oklahoma.

Lawsuits cannot be avoided. They happen in the most concrete of contracts. It is up to the parties who enter into the contract to see to their own legal well being.

In this situation no one here knows what happened or how much money the church was paid. No one knows what the agreement said or what provisions it contained.

Thanks Tipsycatlover
I understand even NOLO and other such services have come under fire and extreme scrutiny
to make sure they are not "practicing law or giving legal advice without a license"

Still, there are SAMPLE trusts, wills and wording for tenant/lease agreements posted online for people to copy
to write up their own agreements.

If there are "referral services" and networks that don't advise or practice law,
that is also a good idea -- to have a free, voluntary/pro-bono network of consultants or lawyers
willing to refer business owners IN ADVANCE.

and YES I do believe lawsuits CAN be prevented IN ADVANCE
if these businesses all write up an application form for new customers
to read and sign BEFORE contracting to do any work or provide any services.

The CONFLICTS can't be prevented, where people have religious differences.

But they DON'T HAVE TO DO BUSINESS TOGETHER if they screen each other out IN ADVANCE.

So the waiver would serve as a screening device.

YES it has to be written properly, just like an arbitration agreement that are part of the Terms of Services.

So the Business has the right not to even accept a contract if the customer won't
sign the MEDIATION agreement in advance. And work out all conflicts IN ADVANCE.

So places that do weddings or funerals can agree IN ADVANCE how to handle conflicts.

For services, the parties can agree IN ADVANCE what happens if a guest or incident
suddenly disrupts the services, if a conflict arises (such as the conflict over the photos
deemed inappropriate for display at THAT church, or what if a family member shows up in inappropriate dress or protestors act up outside), then what is the PROCESS.
And the parties AGREE IN ADVANCE. If they can't agree, they already KNOW not to do business together.

So in this case, if the parties had to work through a conflict resolution agreement IN ADVANCE,
either the pastor would be confronted about his issue with the photos being displayed in advance, and then the contract would stop there (with the money or deposit refunded if that is what the customer insisted before signing, and if the company didn't agree the customer would never sign up and never give the money in the first place!!!!),
or if they didn't find out about the clash until the services started, they would have already AGREED do they continue with the services or do they halt them and stop right there, in which case the customer would not sign the contract if this is the practice of that church to halt the services.

So either way, they either identify the conflict in advance and/or agree not to contract together
if they don't agree how to handle the conflict. All this can be screened in advance.

And yes, if you are saying that no such contract, not even a sample can be offered as a SUGGESTION, except through a legal contract with a licensed professional etc. that is fine. That can be included in the SUGGESTION to set up MEDIATION agreements in advance, before agreeing to work with ANY company or ANY customer.

Frankly I think that abridges free speech if you cannot even SUGGEST
mediation agreements publicly in advance.

It is NOT practicing medicine without a license to advise people not to smoke in front of people with asthma.

Suggesting and explaining WHY I recommend mediation instead of lawsuits
is just pure common sense, and should require paying an attorney to explain why mediation
will preserve and protect equal interests and cost both parties less money, hassle and stress.

That's just explaining why conflict resolution works better than suing and gambling on a win/lose situation
when consensus can be sought that respects both sides to create a win/win situation.

This is one area that I feel the legal practice monopolizes "democratic due process" and FU it up.

This is why the legal system gets abused to incite and depend on lawsuits to make money for lawyers
by NOT preventing conflicts but almost ENCOURAGING them.

There is not enough focus on PREVENTING lawsuits, so it seems a conflict of interest
for lawyers to keep making and enforcing laws that benefit them and reinforce their monopoly.

Would rather train and assist people in FREE MEDIATION and conflict resolution
to protect free speech, right to petition, and equal exercise of beliefs from infringement.

There is no learning curve for someone who already knows.

 

[Papageorgio]

Have a couple of issues with this stories.


1. Why would,you have someone that didn't know the deceased, give the service, why not someone from her church?

2. Why didn't the minister try to get to know the deceased? Seems he would at least want to know the person he is going to be giving the memorial for.

3. To stop in the middle of a service because you weren't caring enough to know who the person was and if their beliefs aligned with yours, is callous and cruel to those that loved her.

It seems like some really uncaring and thoughtless people on both sides of this issue.

 

[Katzndogz]

Have a couple of issues with this stories.


1. Why would,you have someone that didn't know the deceased, give the service, why not someone from her church?

2. Why didn't the minister try to get to know the deceased? Seems he would at least want to know the person he is going to be giving the memorial for.

3. To stop in the middle of a service because you weren't caring enough to know who the person was and if their beliefs aligned with yours, is callous and cruel to those that loved her.

It seems like some really uncaring and thoughtless people on both sides of this issue.

Someone from the deceased's church didn't give the service likely because the deceased didn't have a church.

The minister didn't have a problem with conducting the service. He was always willing to conduct the service. The controversy was over photographs displayed at the service. The minister wanted the photos of two women in intimate moments kissing to be removed. The minister refused to conduct the service until the objectionable was removed. Rather than remove the photos the family removed the entire funeral.

 

[asaratis]

The Pastor made the noble right decision. I would have done the same thing. Morals had to be upheld.



Family Church in Lakewood stops woman s funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

Noble? Surely you jest!

It was a pompous act, indicative of a self righteous, unforgiving dogma.

We make photographers shoot gay weddings. We make bakers provide gay wedding cakes. We make dress shops provide dresses for lesbian weddings.

Why not make preachers perform gay funeral services?

 

[Papageorgio]

Have a couple of issues with this stories.


1. Why would,you have someone that didn't know the deceased, give the service, why not someone from her church?

2. Why didn't the minister try to get to know the deceased? Seems he would at least want to know the person he is going to be giving the memorial for.

3. To stop in the middle of a service because you weren't caring enough to know who the person was and if their beliefs aligned with yours, is callous and cruel to those that loved her.

It seems like some really uncaring and thoughtless people on both sides of this issue.

Someone from the deceased's church didn't give the service likely because the deceased didn't have a church.

The minister didn't have a problem with conducting the service. He was always willing to conduct the service. The controversy was over photographs displayed at the service. The minister wanted the photos of two women in intimate moments kissing to be removed. The minister refused to conduct the service until the objectionable was removed. Rather than remove the photos the family removed the entire funeral.

Then why was it important for them to have a religious service if it wasn't important to her.

The minister should have spoke to those that loved her and he would have known what to expect, both sides were terrible to the memory of the deceased.

 

[High_Gravity]

Stopping a funeral because the person ended up being gay? really?