Krugman kicks von Mises acolyte while he's down

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. The way out of our debacle is fiscal policy,.

what fiscal policy exactly.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

yes, he, being a libertarian progressive, also said no really good reason to collect taxes either once you understand the operational reality of the Treasury Dept!.

Your term "libertarian progressive" is an oxymoron.

yes it is but thats what Kimura calls himself!!

 

[Kimura]

. The way out of our debacle is fiscal policy,.

what fiscal policy exactly.

There's only one definition of fiscal policy.

 

[Kimura]

Oh Jesus. FDR only created the SS Trust fund for political reasons. Why not just eliminate FICA and fund SS out of the general revenue?

Again, it's not these mystical and esoteric "unfunded liabilities" which are the problem. Like I said, the only problem would be the availability of real resources in the future, which will not be an issue as long as the economy grows along with the population, and we have an increase in productivity that will enable us to have fewer workers to supply increased numbers. This is basically what's happened historically, so the only problem I see is this illogical and almost religious devotion to austerity that wants to save future needs as opposed to investing. It's retarded and has zero basis in economics .

I agree, individuals should invest for their future need. They should start with the 12.4% of income currently spent on SS taxes.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest. We've already went over why privatization of SS is a horrible idea.

Here's the Kimura Grand Bargain for American Prosperity:

1. Suspend FICA
2. Fund SS out of the general revenue
3. Raise SS payments to to a minimum of $2,000 per month.

Problem solved, everyone can go have a beer.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Oh Jesus. FDR only created the SS Trust fund for political reasons. Why not just eliminate FICA and fund SS out of the general revenue?

Again, it's not these mystical and esoteric "unfunded liabilities" which are the problem. Like I said, the only problem would be the availability of real resources in the future, which will not be an issue as long as the economy grows along with the population, and we have an increase in productivity that will enable us to have fewer workers to supply increased numbers. This is basically what's happened historically, so the only problem I see is this illogical and almost religious devotion to austerity that wants to save future needs as opposed to investing. It's retarded and has zero basis in economics .

I agree, individuals should invest for their future need. They should start with the 12.4% of income currently spent on SS taxes.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest. We've already went over why privatization of SS is a horrible idea.

Here's the Kimura Grand Bargain for American Prosperity:

1. Suspend FICA
2. Fund SS out of the general revenue
3. Raise SS payments to to a minimum of $2,000 per month.

Problem solved, everyone can go have a beer.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest.

It is easier to trust the crooks in DC to provide for your retirement.
What could go wrong?


We've already went over why privatization of SS is a horrible idea.

I know, more money for retirees and less power for government.
Just horrible.

1. Suspend FICA

One out of three ain't bad.
That's a much higher batting average than Obama.

 

[bripat9643]

Oh Jesus. FDR only created the SS Trust fund for political reasons. Why not just eliminate FICA and fund SS out of the general revenue?

Again, it's not these mystical and esoteric "unfunded liabilities" which are the problem. Like I said, the only problem would be the availability of real resources in the future, which will not be an issue as long as the economy grows along with the population, and we have an increase in productivity that will enable us to have fewer workers to supply increased numbers. This is basically what's happened historically, so the only problem I see is this illogical and almost religious devotion to austerity that wants to save future needs as opposed to investing. It's retarded and has zero basis in economics .

I agree, individuals should invest for their future need. They should start with the 12.4% of income currently spent on SS taxes.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest. We've already went over why privatization of SS is a horrible idea.

Here's the Kimura Grand Bargain for American Prosperity:

1. Suspend FICA
2. Fund SS out of the general revenue
3. Raise SS payments to to a minimum of $2,000 per month.

Problem solved, everyone can go have a beer.

You forgot one:

4. National bankruptcy.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

It's like a special education class in here. I brought cookies and pharmies!

 

[Dot Com]

How any "thinking-person" can advocate von Mises-like theory, given what we now know, has taken the rw brown acid.

 

[Dot Com]

As to Krugman, he justified why he calls-out the libertarian economist hack/cranks:
from OP source (snip)

Now, when I say things like that, people start howling about lack of civility. But I wasn’t insulting someone for the sake of insult; if you didn’t understand the essential dishonesty of the plan, you weren’t getting the story right. Yes, I could have used diffident language — but why? Readers deserve to be told clearly what is going on.

^ the above is why he gets to @CrusaderFrank . Krugman gives the reader the unexpurgated version.

 

[Kimura]

It is easier to trust the crooks in DC to provide for your retirement.
What could go wrong?

I know, more money for retirees and less power for government.
Just horrible.

You're not looking at it correctly. Our participation in SS is the same as purchasing a US Treasury. We give the federal government our $$$$ now and it gives us back $$$$ down the road. This is the functional equivalent purchasing a bond or sticking your $$$$ in a savings account.

Under current privatization schemes, the government will decrease SS payments and employees would opt for the stock market. If we use current institutional arrangements, as they now stand, the US Treasury would have to issue more securities to make up for decreased revenue (as arrangements now stand). In essence, at the end of the day, employees are purchasing stocks from another party, so the stock are simple changing hands. There is NO NEW $$$$ going into the economy. The people who sold the stock now have the $$$$ from selling the stocks which is the same $$$$ that would have been used to purchase government bonds.

In the end, when all is said and done, all that's transpired is that employees ceasing buying into the SS system. As I've explained, and I think it's pretty clear, SS is the functional equivalent of purchasing a bond. And some other people sold stocks and purchased bonds. From a macroeconomic analysis, all that's occurred some stocks and bonds changed hands, but total net outstanding stock and bonds (if we count SS as a bond), have remained exactly the same. This has ZERO influence or benefit on total net savings or the economy in general. All it does it generate transaction costs. How is this beneficial for retirees?

 

[Kimura]

Oh Jesus. FDR only created the SS Trust fund for political reasons. Why not just eliminate FICA and fund SS out of the general revenue?

Again, it's not these mystical and esoteric "unfunded liabilities" which are the problem. Like I said, the only problem would be the availability of real resources in the future, which will not be an issue as long as the economy grows along with the population, and we have an increase in productivity that will enable us to have fewer workers to supply increased numbers. This is basically what's happened historically, so the only problem I see is this illogical and almost religious devotion to austerity that wants to save future needs as opposed to investing. It's retarded and has zero basis in economics .

I agree, individuals should invest for their future need. They should start with the 12.4% of income currently spent on SS taxes.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest. We've already went over why privatization of SS is a horrible idea.

Here's the Kimura Grand Bargain for American Prosperity:

1. Suspend FICA
2. Fund SS out of the general revenue
3. Raise SS payments to to a minimum of $2,000 per month.

Problem solved, everyone can go have a beer.

You forgot one:

4. National bankruptcy.

This is the last time I'm going to say this: The US government, as the sovereign issuer of the dollar, cannot go bankrupt.

The Congress spends by basically telling the FED to credit a member bank account at the FED. This is entirely independent from tax revenues and/or borrowing.

What you pedantically and erroneously refer to as borrowing is simply shifting $$$$ from reserve accounts at the FED to securities accounts at the FED. When debt payments are made, in terms of operationally servicing said debt, $$$$ is shifted from securities accounts to reserve accounts over at the FED.

Oh yeah, and your tax payments are nothing more than unprinting $$$$ ( demand accounts are debited, the monetary circuit isn't a feedback loop with a fixed amount of $$$$ that is perpetually recycled).

I fuckin' don't how many ways I can spell this out for you. I can create a diagram in Photoshop or something.

 

[bripat9643]

Oh Jesus. FDR only created the SS Trust fund for political reasons. Why not just eliminate FICA and fund SS out of the general revenue?

Again, it's not these mystical and esoteric "unfunded liabilities" which are the problem. Like I said, the only problem would be the availability of real resources in the future, which will not be an issue as long as the economy grows along with the population, and we have an increase in productivity that will enable us to have fewer workers to supply increased numbers. This is basically what's happened historically, so the only problem I see is this illogical and almost religious devotion to austerity that wants to save future needs as opposed to investing. It's retarded and has zero basis in economics .

I agree, individuals should invest for their future need. They should start with the 12.4% of income currently spent on SS taxes.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest. We've already went over why privatization of SS is a horrible idea.

Here's the Kimura Grand Bargain for American Prosperity:

1. Suspend FICA
2. Fund SS out of the general revenue
3. Raise SS payments to to a minimum of $2,000 per month.

Problem solved, everyone can go have a beer.

You forgot one:

4. National bankruptcy.

This is the last time I'm going to say this: The US government, as the sovereign issuer of the dollar, cannot go bankrupt.

The Congress spends by basically telling the FED to credit a member bank account at the FED. This is entirely independent from tax revenues and/or borrowing.

What you pedantically and erroneously refer to as borrowing is simply shifting $$$$ from reserve accounts at the FED to securities accounts at the FED. When debt payments are made, in terms of operationally servicing said debt, $$$$ is shifted from securities accounts to reserve accounts over at the FED.

Oh yeah, and your tax payments are nothing more than unprinting $$$$ ( demand accounts are debited, the monetary circuit isn't a feedback loop with a fixed amount of $$$$ that is perpetually recycled).

I fuckin' don't how many ways I can spell this out for you. I can create a diagram in Photoshop or something.

You can't be serious. You're trying to tell us that when a U.S citizen or a foreign government exchanges their cash for a U.S. Treasury bond that the government hasn't borrowed money.

It takes a special kind of fool to fall for that abracadabra.

 

[bripat9643]

How any "thinking-person" can advocate von Mises-like theory, given what we now know, has taken the rw brown acid.

Everything you know is wrong. All thinking persons understand that Mises is right and the government interventionist magicians are nothing more than con artists.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It is easier to trust the crooks in DC to provide for your retirement.
What could go wrong?

I know, more money for retirees and less power for government.
Just horrible.

You're not looking at it correctly. Our participation in SS is the same as purchasing a US Treasury. We give the federal government our $$$$ now and it gives us back $$$$ down the road. This is the functional equivalent purchasing a bond or sticking your $$$$ in a savings account.

Under current privatization schemes, the government will decrease SS payments and employees would opt for the stock market. If we use current institutional arrangements, as they now stand, the US Treasury would have to issue more securities to make up for decreased revenue (as arrangements now stand). In essence, at the end of the day, employees are purchasing stocks from another party, so the stock are simple changing hands. There is NO NEW $$$$ going into the economy. The people who sold the stock now have the $$$$ from selling the stocks which is the same $$$$ that would have been used to purchase government bonds.

In the end, when all is said and done, all that's transpired is that employees ceasing buying into the SS system. As I've explained, and I think it's pretty clear, SS is the functional equivalent of purchasing a bond. And some other people sold stocks and purchased bonds. From a macroeconomic analysis, all that's occurred some stocks and bonds changed hands, but total net outstanding stock and bonds (if we count SS as a bond), have remained exactly the same. This has ZERO influence or benefit on total net savings or the economy in general. All it does it generate transaction costs. How is this beneficial for retirees?

You're not looking at it correctly. Our participation in SS is the same as purchasing a US Treasury.

You're confused. If I die, my family gets to keep the Treasury. If I die, my family loses all the SS contribution I made.

This is the functional equivalent purchasing a bond or sticking your $$$$ in a savings account.

That's hilarious!

Under current privatization schemes, the government will decrease SS payments and employees would opt for the stock market.

Or the bond market.

If we use current institutional arrangements, as they now stand, the US Treasury would have to issue more securities to make up for decreased revenue (as arrangements now stand).

Yes.

In essence, at the end of the day, employees are purchasing stocks from another party, so the stock are simple changing hands.

Stock in hand versus a politician's promise that the money will be there later.

There is NO NEW $$$$ going into the economy.

Giving SS taxes to the Feds doesn't result in NEW $$$$ going into the economy.

In the end, when all is said and done, all that's transpired is that employees ceasing buying into the SS system.

Less dependence on government and the eventual end of the low return high unfunded liability system.
Still haven't heard a good reason to not privatize.

How is this beneficial for retirees?

Higher returns, no reliance on politicians and more private investment in the economy.
It's beneficial for everyone.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Let's start with recent history.


Why is the British Sterling no longer the world's reserve currency? What happened in the late 60's and early 70's to change the status of the Pound Sterling?

A "reserve currency" is nothing more than the preferred currency used by nation-states for the purposes if international trade. In other words, it makes things convenient. It makes things less complicated if countries use the same currency when pricing real goods and services.

If the US stops being used as the reserve currency, it would have zero affect on its ability to issue dollars. For example, Japan isn't the reserve currency and they can issue as many Yen as they need. Ditto the UK, Canada, Australia, etc.

At one point the Pound WAS a reserve currenc

As to Krugman, he justified why he calls-out the libertarian economist hack/cranks:
from OP source (snip)

Now, when I say things like that, people start howling about lack of civility. But I wasn’t insulting someone for the sake of insult; if you didn’t understand the essential dishonesty of the plan, you weren’t getting the story right. Yes, I could have used diffident language — but why? Readers deserve to be told clearly what is going on.

^ the above is why he gets to @CrusaderFrank . Krugman gives the reader the unexpurgated version.

^ Paul Krugman, gifted Leftist "Economist"

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Kimura is just plain fucking evil. Wrong doesn't cover it, lots of people get things wrong. Kimura is absolutely lying, knows he's lying, knows full well how destructive his "ideas" are and have been throughout history, and he carries on anyway. That's evil

 

[Dot Com]

Krugman is the puppetmaster @frank57

 

[Kimura]

They get dollars from net exports to the US. These end up at the Bank of China. The Bank of China rationally prefers to earn interest on dollar holdings, so these are converted to US treasuries. This is nothing more than a balance sheet operation on the books of the Fed: Bank of China reserves at the Fed are debited and Bank of China treasuries are credited. There’s no net flow of dollars to the US Treasury.

Oh Jesus. FDR only created the SS Trust fund for political reasons. Why not just eliminate FICA and fund SS out of the general revenue?

Again, it's not these mystical and esoteric "unfunded liabilities" which are the problem. Like I said, the only problem would be the availability of real resources in the future, which will not be an issue as long as the economy grows along with the population, and we have an increase in productivity that will enable us to have fewer workers to supply increased numbers. This is basically what's happened historically, so the only problem I see is this illogical and almost religious devotion to austerity that wants to save future needs as opposed to investing. It's retarded and has zero basis in economics .

I agree, individuals should invest for their future need. They should start with the 12.4% of income currently spent on SS taxes.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest. We've already went over why privatization of SS is a horrible idea.

Here's the Kimura Grand Bargain for American Prosperity:

1. Suspend FICA
2. Fund SS out of the general revenue
3. Raise SS payments to to a minimum of $2,000 per month.

Problem solved, everyone can go have a beer.

You forgot one:

4. National bankruptcy.

This is the last time I'm going to say this: The US government, as the sovereign issuer of the dollar, cannot go bankrupt.

The Congress spends by basically telling the FED to credit a member bank account at the FED. This is entirely independent from tax revenues and/or borrowing.

What you pedantically and erroneously refer to as borrowing is simply shifting $$$$ from reserve accounts at the FED to securities accounts at the FED. When debt payments are made, in terms of operationally servicing said debt, $$$$ is shifted from securities accounts to reserve accounts over at the FED.

Oh yeah, and your tax payments are nothing more than unprinting $$$$ ( demand accounts are debited, the monetary circuit isn't a feedback loop with a fixed amount of $$$$ that is perpetually recycled).

I fuckin' don't how many ways I can spell this out for you. I can create a diagram in Photoshop or something.

You can't be serious. You're trying to tell us that when a U.S citizen or a foreign government exchanges their cash for a U.S. Treasury bond that the government hasn't borrowed money.

It takes a special kind of fool to fall for that abracadabra.

You're confused as usual. I worked for a primary dealer for five at the start of my career, so I understand the mechanics better than most.

When a foreign government or citizen exchanges $$$$ for a Treasury, $$$$ is simply debited from a reserve account and credited to a securities account (US Treasuries are nothing more than interest beating dollar deposits at the FED).

Let's use China, the right wing's favorite boogeyman to prey on the ignorance of the average person. All Chinese dollars come from the US. They don't lend us our own fiat, nor do they have a dollar factory in Hong Kong. They obtain US $$$$ from net exports to the US which end up at the Bank of China. They then convert their US $$$$ to US Treasuries which is nothing more than a balance sheet operation, consisting of a series of debits and credits, between the Bank of China's reserve account and securities accounts at the FED.

There's no abracadabra here. Uncle Sam can NEVER run of his supply of dollars as the sovereign issuer of the currency.

 

[Kimura]

You're confused. If I die, my family gets to keep the Treasury. If I die, my family loses all the SS contribution I made.

That's a matter that can be corrected through legislation. My point was it's the functional equivalent of purchasing a bond. You give Uncle Same $$$$ now, Uncle Sam give you back $$$$ down the road.

Or the bond market.

The OASI and DI trust funds are invested in US Treasuries.

Yes.

I don't think you though through the implications of what I pointed out.

Stock in hand versus a politician's promise that the money will be there later.

Politicians don't need to promise $$$$ to anyone. Through legislation, just like Medicare, all we need is a funding guarantee.

Giving SS taxes to the Feds doesn't result in NEW $$$$ going into the economy.

Neither does privatizing SS, all it does it create transaction costs, and there's no new $$$$ entering the economy on a macro level/

Less dependence on government and the eventual end of the low return high unfunded liability system.
Still haven't heard a good reason to not privatize.

#1 - There's no such thing as a unfunded liability, unless you don't think we'll have the real resources for retirees down the road.

I just explained it you. All privatization will do is create transactions costs in the form of commissions and load fees.

Higher returns, no reliance on politicians and more private investment in the economy.
It's beneficial for everyone.

It's only beneficial for Wall Street

 

[Kimura]

How any "thinking-person" can advocate von Mises-like theory, given what we now know, has taken the rw brown acid.

Everything you know is wrong. All thinking persons understand that Mises is right and the government interventionist magicians are nothing more than con artists.

LOL. Now I know you definitely have ZERO background in finance or economics in any capacity.