Jobs, The Economy or "What's Wrong With These Robots?"

[The Rabbi]

That chart you supplied probably reflects the artificial money pumped into the economy that is going to end soon.

I'm telling you that when it does, your chart is going to have those lines going in the other direction. Maybe quite drastically. People who no longer get unemployment checks or government handouts from, ultimately, taxing your business to death are not going to be able to buy stuff from your business [that's being taxed to death to artificially inflate the economy].

Grasping at straws, I see? How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you spout stuff that is simply not true and easily disproved? They can't. No one could.

I see you haven't disproved it though. How convenient to your debating style. Try elementary school mathematics maybe.

"If Johnny has no money, how many apples can Johnny buy from Susie's apple business she harvested with automated harvesters?"

And later..

"If the government taxes Susie's apple business to pay for handouts for Johnny, and there are millions more Johnnys joining his ranks every year, how much longer can this artificial economy last"?

What you write is so patently absurd it disproves itself. The trend was going up long before the Fed began pumping money into the economy.

 

[Silhouette]

Grasping at straws, I see? How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you spout stuff that is simply not true and easily disproved? They can't. No one could.

I see you haven't disproved it though. How convenient to your debating style. Try elementary school mathematics maybe.

"If Johnny has no money, how many apples can Johnny buy from Susie's apple business she harvested with automated harvesters?"

And later..

"If the government taxes Susie's apple business to pay for handouts for Johnny, and there are millions more Johnnys joining his ranks every year, how much longer can this artificial economy last"?

What you write is so patently absurd it disproves itself. The trend was going up long before the Fed began pumping money into the economy.

Which makes you wonder if it CONTRIBUTED to the fed having to pump money into the economy in the first place.

And let me define "fed' for you as we are using it here. The fed is the one taking the taxes away from the merchants whose sales are dropping directly because of the common man not being able to buy their goods.

See the dragon eating its own tail yet? Don't worry....you will.... Raising the minimum wage BTW is going to be like adding a leaf blower blast to a fire that's already out of control.

 

[The Rabbi]

I see you haven't disproved it though. How convenient to your debating style. Try elementary school mathematics maybe.

"If Johnny has no money, how many apples can Johnny buy from Susie's apple business she harvested with automated harvesters?"

And later..

"If the government taxes Susie's apple business to pay for handouts for Johnny, and there are millions more Johnnys joining his ranks every year, how much longer can this artificial economy last"?

What you write is so patently absurd it disproves itself. The trend was going up long before the Fed began pumping money into the economy.

Which makes you wonder if it CONTRIBUTED to the fed having to pump money into the economy in the first place.

And let me define "fed' for you as we are using it here. The fed is the one taking the taxes away from the merchants whose sales are dropping directly because of the common man not being able to buy their goods.

See the dragon eating its own tail yet? Don't worry....you will.... Raising the minimum wage BTW is going to be like adding a leaf blower blast to a fire that's already out of control.

The Fed has no power of taxation. You really are sounding like a total noob here. Quit posting before you're laughed off this forum.

 

[Silhouette]

What you write is so patently absurd it disproves itself. The trend was going up long before the Fed began pumping money into the economy.

Which makes you wonder if it CONTRIBUTED to the fed having to pump money into the economy in the first place.

And let me define "fed' for you as we are using it here. The fed is the one taking the taxes away from the merchants whose sales are dropping directly because of the common man not being able to buy their goods.

See the dragon eating its own tail yet? Don't worry....you will.... Raising the minimum wage BTW is going to be like adding a leaf blower blast to a fire that's already out of control.

The Fed has no power of taxation. You really are sounding like a total noob here. Quit posting before you're laughed off this forum.

I hardly think I'll be laughed off this forum. Who collects taxes then if not the IRS? Is the IRS a state entity? Or a federal one?

 

[The Rabbi]

Which makes you wonder if it CONTRIBUTED to the fed having to pump money into the economy in the first place.

And let me define "fed' for you as we are using it here. The fed is the one taking the taxes away from the merchants whose sales are dropping directly because of the common man not being able to buy their goods.

See the dragon eating its own tail yet? Don't worry....you will.... Raising the minimum wage BTW is going to be like adding a leaf blower blast to a fire that's already out of control.

The Fed has no power of taxation. You really are sounding like a total noob here. Quit posting before you're laughed off this forum.

I hardly think I'll be laughed off this forum. Who collects taxes then if not the IRS? Is the IRS a state entity? Or a federal one?

The IRS is not the Fed.
You are an ignoramus. Like that's news.

 

[f252863]

Primitive minds at work, people 50 years from now will be laughing at these antiquated notions.

In the not too distant future most of us won't have to work any more (if we so choose) as robots will cater to our every need.

 

[asterism]

I see the problems discussed by The Rabbi, Erand & Bombur. Yet we have a problem with pathetically few manufacturing jobs. So there must be some kind of compromise that can be reached where technology can augment but more humans are needed.

I watch those shows on the tube occasionally about manufacturing, "How it's Made" and the like. One of them seems to be a Canandian show. I noticed in the Canadian manufacturing, they still keep jobs open for humans that easily could have been replaced by automation.

Maybe the Canadians, like Oregon, have figured out that a person who is self-sustaining is less of the drag on the capitalist system? This is why I've always advocated for hybrid capitalist socialist governments with more heavy of a lean towards capitalism. I think it's the perfect blend so that both systems can flourish where the two, isolated on their own, will always languish and die from their imperfections.

You have to understand though, that if we replace some automation with more workers, the company's heads will make less money each year. They won't be anxious to do that. Yet if you look at the second post in this thread, Henry Ford stripped himself of profits like this "so he could look his workers in the face". That type of concern for one's fellow men, especially the spine/backbone that makes up your company...the actual sweat labor...is an icon that American industry needs to revitalize. Incentives to do this need to be enacted as a matter of law, since today's religion of individuals amassing insane wealth they will never spend in their lifetimes is too deeply entrenched. As it turns out, Henry Ford raising the wages of his workers to nearly double, providing medical clinics, playgrounds and other perks turned out to attract skilled and happy workers. As a result, his profits went up up up up. And, the workers turned around and bought his cars. If every mogul figured out that appreciating and sharing wealth with his workers bolstered himself and the country he does business in, we would not be in the pickle we are in today.

I think there needs to be maybe a mandatory clinic, maybe some sort of government certification program for CEOs to get a license to do business that teaches them the economics of profit sharing, how creating more jobs with better conditions means more profits in a better economy for them? I think people that head up many companies are just ignorant of this connection in economics and it may just be a simple matter of teaching them. Like the DMV, you don't get your license there without learning the rules of the road and how your driving interacts with others to bring about smooth traffic flow that isn't dangerous to anyone. The way we do business in the US really is like a form of reckless driving with few if any rules of the road except "me first" always..

If you think this is a viable solution then go be like Henry Ford and open a factory.

 

[asterism]

So your thesis is that every company in the US will go bankrupt? Really?
Look, back in 1900 farm jobs were disappearing in huge numbers. And guess what, we produce more ag products today than ever before.

I'm in the ag business friend and let me tell you; we farmers are just hanging on. Fewer and fewer of the younger generation want to work hard. And on a farm there is no escaping working hard as hell. So, ag people hire Mexicans who are the only ones who work hard these days. So your sure and steady food supply might just vanish before your eyes one day. Agriculture is one of the most back breaking jobs there is, with little profits and lots of debt. Try it. I'll bet most of y'all wouldn't last a week working a farm.

The point of the OP is lost as usual. So once again I'll remind you. How many of those robots will be buying your widgets you make or a house or a car or bread or pay taxes? Zero.

And therein lies our economic woes..

Ok, then try this on your farm. Get rid of all the pumps and hire workers to bring the water from your ponds to the fields. Then sell them the crops you paid them to water. See how long that lasts.

LOL

 

[rdean]

Those robots need engineers, technicians, scientists, assemblers and programmers.

Looks like a lot of liberals will be employed. See? It isn't all bad.

 

[f252863]

Those robots need engineers, technicians, scientists, assemblers and programmers.

Looks like a lot of liberals will be employed. See? It isn't all bad.

True but you also have to factor in robots that have artificial intelligence that can program themselves, do their own repairs, and perform research.

 

[Silhouette]

Those robots need engineers, technicians, scientists, assemblers and programmers.

Looks like a lot of liberals will be employed. See? It isn't all bad.

True but you also have to factor in robots that have artificial intelligence that can program themselves, do their own repairs, and perform research.

Well, I think we're a long way away from Isaac Asimov's world, but yes, robots are already making robots. And none of them pay income taxes, nor are they buying groceries, cars, clothing, vacations etc.

The robot replacing the man is like pulling the drain plug out of a water tank and plugging the inlet and hoping there will always be plenty of water there to drink.

Because the US economy was so huge when this all got started, we fooled ourselves into thinking it was not hurting us. Now, utterly reliant upon automation it seems, we are wondering why that well is running dry.

The very simple truth at the bottom of that tank is: "you can't sell stuff to people who don't have jobs". Henry Ford knew it. And he made a fortune by going above the lure of pure greed for himself, and embracing his workers' economic health as part of his own economic health.

 

[chikenwing]

Those robots need engineers, technicians, scientists, assemblers and programmers.

Looks like a lot of liberals will be employed. See? It isn't all bad.

True but you also have to factor in robots that have artificial intelligence that can program themselves, do their own repairs, and perform research.

By parts and pay for raw materials also??

Arrrnald would love you

 

[Silhouette]

Those robots need engineers, technicians, scientists, assemblers and programmers.

Looks like a lot of liberals will be employed. See? It isn't all bad.

True but you also have to factor in robots that have artificial intelligence that can program themselves, do their own repairs, and perform research.

By parts and pay for raw materials also??

Arrrnald would love you

Asimov would say that we would become like a slave force to robots, supplying them with the raw materials they demanded of us. We aren't there yet, but the drones killing people is an eerie and uncomfortable foreshadow..

 

[chikenwing]

True but you also have to factor in robots that have artificial intelligence that can program themselves, do their own repairs, and perform research.

By parts and pay for raw materials also??

Arrrnald would love you

Asimov would say that we would become like a slave force to robots, supplying them with the raw materials they demanded of us. We aren't there yet, but the drones killing people is an eerie and uncomfortable foreshadow..

Those drones are driven by an individual, automation is good and bad,it is dehumanizing to an extent.

 

[Silhouette]

By parts and pay for raw materials also??

Arrrnald would love you

Asimov would say that we would become like a slave force to robots, supplying them with the raw materials they demanded of us. We aren't there yet, but the drones killing people is an eerie and uncomfortable foreshadow..

Those drones are driven by an individual, automation is good and bad,it is dehumanizing to an extent.

Well, the point is that they are bad for the economy first and foremost. The amount of goods they produce is negated by the growing numbers of people who simply don't have the income/jobs to purchase them... Diminishing returns is a very bad formula for today's economy...

 

[The Rabbi]

Asimov would say that we would become like a slave force to robots, supplying them with the raw materials they demanded of us. We aren't there yet, but the drones killing people is an eerie and uncomfortable foreshadow..

Those drones are driven by an individual, automation is good and bad,it is dehumanizing to an extent.

Well, the point is that they are bad for the economy first and foremost. The amount of goods they produce is negated by the growing numbers of people who simply don't have the income/jobs to purchase them... Diminishing returns is a very bad formula for today's economy...

All of that has been disproven. This time is no different.

 

[Bombur]

Asimov would say that we would become like a slave force to robots, supplying them with the raw materials they demanded of us. We aren't there yet, but the drones killing people is an eerie and uncomfortable foreshadow..

Those drones are driven by an individual, automation is good and bad,it is dehumanizing to an extent.

Well, the point is that they are bad for the economy first and foremost. The amount of goods they produce is negated by the growing numbers of people who simply don't have the income/jobs to purchase them... Diminishing returns is a very bad formula for today's economy...

There has always been increases in productivity and there always will be. Trying to slow down progress because demand isn't growing is backwards. The solution is to ensure growth in demand that keeps up with productivity growth.

This is why economic policy based on making sure an economy is competitive globally by keeping wages down is very harmful to long term growth.

 

[SteadyMercury]

Increases in productivity in one area lead to new avenues of growth and demand in others.

 

[History]

Those robots need engineers, technicians, scientists, assemblers and programmers.

Looks like a lot of liberals will be employed. See? It isn't all bad.

True but you also have to factor in robots that have artificial intelligence that can program themselves, do their own repairs, and perform research.

Well, I think we're a long way away from Isaac Asimov's world, but yes, robots are already making robots. And none of them pay income taxes, nor are they buying groceries, cars, clothing, vacations etc.

The robot replacing the man is like pulling the drain plug out of a water tank and plugging the inlet and hoping there will always be plenty of water there to drink.

Because the US economy was so huge when this all got started, we fooled ourselves into thinking it was not hurting us. Now, utterly reliant upon automation it seems, we are wondering why that well is running dry.

The very simple truth at the bottom of that tank is: "you can't sell stuff to people who don't have jobs". Henry Ford knew it. And he made a fortune by going above the lure of pure greed for himself, and embracing his workers' economic health as part of his own economic health.

Again, Like he said, you need:

Engineers
Maintenance
Supervisors
Production Technicians
Quality Assurance
Office people for the Firm
Management

 

[asterism]

True but you also have to factor in robots that have artificial intelligence that can program themselves, do their own repairs, and perform research.

Well, I think we're a long way away from Isaac Asimov's world, but yes, robots are already making robots. And none of them pay income taxes, nor are they buying groceries, cars, clothing, vacations etc.

The robot replacing the man is like pulling the drain plug out of a water tank and plugging the inlet and hoping there will always be plenty of water there to drink.

Because the US economy was so huge when this all got started, we fooled ourselves into thinking it was not hurting us. Now, utterly reliant upon automation it seems, we are wondering why that well is running dry.

The very simple truth at the bottom of that tank is: "you can't sell stuff to people who don't have jobs". Henry Ford knew it. And he made a fortune by going above the lure of pure greed for himself, and embracing his workers' economic health as part of his own economic health.

Again, Like he said, you need:

Engineers
Maintenance
Supervisors
Production Technicians
Quality Assurance
Office people for the Firm
Management

Plus the procurement and delivery of the materials. Automation doesn't decrease the workforce, it shifts it and if automation increases demand by increasing the value it's a net gain.

In the 1800s there were 13,000 buggy whip manufacturers. Those who call Henry Ford a hero for providing good jobs are ignoring all the other good jobs he made obsolete.