Jobs, The Economy or "What's Wrong With These Robots?"

[Wyatt earp]

This thread bugged me all day at work. We have thousand's of job's in the U.S. that can not be filled, no one qualified to fill them, operator's knew this day was coming for 30 year's I am aware of, when they just laughed in the 80's when I was a service tech installing molding machine's and robotics. I said to them don't laugh they are going to take your job's. .. go back to school.

 

[occupied]

The worker will always lose to automation, been happening forever, the tale of John Henry is an early story of the tension between honest labor and managements desire for mechanical slaves, look what happened to him. If there was a solution it would have been thought of by now, workers are an undesirable way to make things,what with their insistence on being a human being.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I still wish American' s buying cheap stuff from china from Wal-Mart would stop and I could buy good quality made in America levi's. American's are spending habits are the problem. .. quit buying cheap shit that breaks or wears out in a month.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

I plan on purchasing a robot, equip it to do my job, and still get paid. I'm not giving him one cent either.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I plan on purchasing a robot, equip it to do my job, and still get paid. I'm not giving him one cent either.

Lol

 

[The Rabbi]

Yes, there are quite a few people ignorant of the intricate interplay between human labor and economic health, and you are obviously one of those. You are so locked in on the consumption effect on the economy, that you ignore the rest. Every attempt to interfere with natural market forces creates inefficiencies and distortions in the affected markets and artificially raises prices in those markets.

Labor is a market, just like any other market and is affected by the same natural market forces as any other commodity. Neither you, I, nor government can derive some magic formula that alters that fact. In a world labor market, attempting to fix labor prices in one portion of the market, handicaps that labor force in world wide competition for jobs. The major reason, along with regulations and taxes, that many of our good jobs have gone overseas.

Once one realizes that national borders means little in the current and future business world, one can start to realize that governments cannot protect workers through legislation or regulation. Too many potential competitors that will take advantage of the distortion.

OK, let's run with your premise for awhile.

What happens when sales suddenly and sharply fall off then "with no apparent explanation" [except the one in the OP here] and don't pick back up again and companies, along with the US economy as a whole, begin to do a death spiral that cannot be recovered from?

That's why those bankers are jumping to their deaths recently BTW.

When you boil it all down, refusal to see the worker/consumer as integral to the economic beast is why they are jumping to their deaths. Take a tip from Henry Ford. You pat your workers on the head and it's the same as patting yourself on the back. It worked for him and worked well.. It turns out that doing the decent thing is also good business... There will be no micro-fixes for the US economy this time. The only thing that will save it is a macro-fix. And those at the very top of the piles of gold in this country can look in a mirror and thank themselves that this is so. It's been allowed to go on for so long, to such a blind extent that now only major surgery will save the patient.

A little generosity and consideration of others goes a long way. I hope that generosity becomes a part of human decency again, so that we may all take it to the bank.

So your thesis is that every company in the US will go bankrupt? Really?
Look, back in 1900 farm jobs were disappearing in huge numbers. And guess what, we produce more ag products today than ever before.

 

[Silhouette]

This thread bugged me all day at work. We have thousand's of job's in the U.S. that can not be filled, no one qualified to fill them, operator's knew this day was coming for 30 year's I am aware of, when they just laughed in the 80's when I was a service tech installing molding machine's and robotics. I said to them don't laugh they are going to take your job's. .. go back to school.

Good, then I've done my job!..lol..

Seriously though, we are letting a couple of generations go by without handing down apprenticeships for journeymen. When this happens, civilization is vulnerable to collapse. It's like a monoculture of intelligence and know-how. If something happens to the shrinking keepers of how things work, we'll be back to hunting and gathering or something more like the Dark Ages. Don't laugh. It's happened a few times in human history already.

Every high school should have large emphasis on apprenticing trades and skills.

I was thinking an excellent idea to begin to solve this problem would be a national website that registers the companies that employ the most human beings to do what machines have otherwise overtaken completely. The companies could be ranked by how many American citizens they have employed vs other like companies that are automated. People could be encouraged to buy from the highest ranking companies. And perhaps tax "rewards" could be given to the top 10 companies in this regard.

Call it "Shop Jobs" or something like that. It would be a way for the common man to take back manufacturing and to reward those companies that provide those jobs.

 

[Silhouette]

So your thesis is that every company in the US will go bankrupt? Really?
Look, back in 1900 farm jobs were disappearing in huge numbers. And guess what, we produce more ag products today than ever before.

I'm in the ag business friend and let me tell you; we farmers are just hanging on. Fewer and fewer of the younger generation want to work hard. And on a farm there is no escaping working hard as hell. So, ag people hire Mexicans who are the only ones who work hard these days. So your sure and steady food supply might just vanish before your eyes one day. Agriculture is one of the most back breaking jobs there is, with little profits and lots of debt. Try it. I'll bet most of y'all wouldn't last a week working a farm.

The point of the OP is lost as usual. So once again I'll remind you. How many of those robots will be buying your widgets you make or a house or a car or bread or pay taxes? Zero.

And therein lies our economic woes..

 

[The Rabbi]

So your thesis is that every company in the US will go bankrupt? Really?
Look, back in 1900 farm jobs were disappearing in huge numbers. And guess what, we produce more ag products today than ever before.

I'm in the ag business friend and let me tell you; we farmers are just hanging on. Fewer and fewer of the younger generation want to work hard. And on a farm there is no escaping working hard as hell. So, ag people hire Mexicans who are the only ones who work hard these days. So your sure and steady food supply might just vanish before your eyes one day. Agriculture is one of the most back breaking jobs there is, with little profits and lots of debt. Try it. I'll bet most of y'all wouldn't last a week working a farm.

The point of the OP is lost as usual. So once again I'll remind you. How many of those robots will be buying your widgets you make or a house or a car or bread or pay taxes? Zero.

And therein lies our economic woes..

What does your post have to do with mine? Nothing. I never claimed ag work was easy. I'm sure it's not. So what?
The point is mechanization in the industry didnt lead to the decline of the American economy. The opposite in fact.
This is because conservatives understand people are assets. Liberals think people are liabilities.
And the idea the food supply will disappear is among the more laughable you've proposed in an already laughable thread.

 

[Silhouette]

What does your post have to do with mine? Nothing. I never claimed ag work was easy. I'm sure it's not. So what?
The point is mechanization in the industry didnt lead to the decline of the American economy. The opposite in fact.
This is because conservatives understand people are assets. Liberals think people are liabilities.
And the idea the food supply will disappear is among the more laughable you've proposed in an already laughable thread.

People are neither "assets" nor "liabilities". They are you. They are me. We are human beings. My point of telling you how hard the ag business is was to hopefully personalize the labor for you and other readers. To get you to appreciate the nuances of the industry. To get you to see that sometimes people work their whole lives in an industry that is rife with poverty and strain so that you can sail along like everything is OK.

But if you had to pay ag workers through the products they make, the actual price of what food should be, you'd be paying roughly, I figure, $20 for a loaf of bread. Into that loaf went the farmer's labor, hired hands, heavy machinery, repairs, fuel to till, sew, weed, harvest, winnow, cure, store, transport....then the milling...off to the bakery where still more hired hands and machines mix, more ingredients, knead, bake, package, ship again to a store near you...more hired hands at the store to stock, display and check you out at the register. Make that more like $50/loaf.

There is no better worker to understand the plight of and your dependence upon than the ag/food worker. I'm trying to get the rich or out of touch to notice and recognize where their most basic essential that they can never get out of buying or likely could never produce for themselves, without which they would die, comes from. COMMON LABOR.

The economic system is very similar and now we find businesses even like Wallmart complaining that sales are dropping. Just like a rich man cannot survive without the labor of the peasant making his food, the rich company cannot survive without labor consuming his wares he sells.

That's what mentioning how hard farming is has to do with what you said. You can laugh all you want but I'd like to see you produce just one bushel of wheat on your own, cure it, mill it, and create a loaf of bread from it that you would find even remotely palatable.

 

[Silhouette]

I plan on purchasing a robot, equip it to do my job, and still get paid. I'm not giving him one cent either.

OK, but just make sure it buys cars, bread and pays taxes too...

 

[oreo]

What's wrong with these robots?

1. They don't pay taxes.

2. They don't buy houses.

3. They don't buy the bread or cars they are making.

Back in the late 1960s & 1970s when we saw automation make its hated/unwanted debut, we all knew where it would lead. Many heated protests sprang up back then asserting that jobs would be lost and good men would sit idle or not be able to put food on the table. Then came "made in China"...and finally NAFTA as the final death blow to our economy.

It's been a long slow death as old-school companies who had loyalty to their workers began more and more to be replaced in ownership as the old guard died off at the top ranks. The new group of the "me" generation wanted more and more and more wealth for themselves. So they figured if they replaced all their workers with robots, they'd make more money!!

For sure they did. Until now. Now companies are struggling to understand where all the customers are? Where's our old profit margins??

In Oregon, it is illegal for you to pump your own gas. An attendant must do it for you. Apparently in Oregon, they figured out who buys bread, cars....and gas...

When you replace jobs with automation and cheap foreign labor [that is made that way because they have socialized medicine], the rains of your former profits dry up and become a thing of the past in the economic desert you have created. Get used to it...

All the people in the photo below bought cars, bread, gas, clothing, homes, paid income taxes etc...

Yeah but who builds the ROBOTS? Do they build themselves?--

The worst anti-business administration in the history of this nation is sitting in the Oval Office right now. His name is BARACK OBAMA.

Who yesterday--while usurping his constitutional authority AGAIN--decided to single handedly change Obamacare for the 27th time--without congressional approval and threaten business's in this country with the IRS should they be forced to lay off--or cut employees hours.

(1) Limited Workforce Size. The employer must employ on average at least 50 full-time employees (including full-time equivalents) but fewer than 100 full-time employees (including full-time equivalents) on business days during 2014. (Employers with fewer than 50 full-time employees (including full-time equivalents) on business days during the previous year are not subject to the Employer Shared Responsibility provisions.) The number of full-time employees (including full-time equivalents) is determined in accordance with the otherwise applicable rules in the final regulations for determining status as an applicable large employer.

(2) Maintenance of Workforce and Aggregate Hours of Service. During the period beginning on Febr. 9, 2014 and ending on Dec. 31, 2014, the employer may not reduce the size of its workforce or the overall hours of service of its employees in order to qualify for the transition relief. However, an employer that reduces workforce size or overall hours of service for bona fide business reasons is still eligible for the relief.

Questions and Answers on Employer Shared Responsibility Provisions Under the Affordable Care Act

Now is anyone on this board really dumb enough to believe that an employer who has 30 employees is going to grow their company and hire more employees--with the threat that if they have to lay off anyone or cut anyone hours--that the IRS is going to be all over their Ass's for doing so?---

Welcome to your hope and change!

 

[thanatos144]

What's wrong with these robots?

1. They don't pay taxes.

2. They don't buy houses.

3. They don't buy the bread or cars they are making.

Back in the late 1960s & 1970s when we saw automation make its hated/unwanted debut, we all knew where it would lead. Many heated protests sprang up back then asserting that jobs would be lost and good men would sit idle or not be able to put food on the table. Then came "made in China"...and finally NAFTA as the final death blow to our economy.

It's been a long slow death as old-school companies who had loyalty to their workers began more and more to be replaced in ownership as the old guard died off at the top ranks. The new group of the "me" generation wanted more and more and more wealth for themselves. So they figured if they replaced all their workers with robots, they'd make more money!!

For sure they did. Until now. Now companies are struggling to understand where all the customers are? Where's our old profit margins??

In Oregon, it is illegal for you to pump your own gas. An attendant must do it for you. Apparently in Oregon, they figured out who buys bread, cars....and gas...

When you replace jobs with automation and cheap foreign labor [that is made that way because they have socialized medicine], the rains of your former profits dry up and become a thing of the past in the economic desert you have created. Get used to it...

All the people in the photo below bought cars, bread, gas, clothing, homes, paid income taxes etc...

Your fucking kidding right? There have been robots on the line for longer then most on this board has been alive.

 

[The Rabbi]

People who flunked economics think more efficiency is harmful.

 

[Silhouette]

Your fucking kidding right? There have been robots on the line for longer then most on this board has been alive.

We've had HIV longer than most on this board have been alive. What's your point?

I remember a time before automation. And at that time a man who did not have a job was either insane, injured horribly or a total social outcast; jobs were that plentiful and the culture of working to support oneself and one's family was that much of a religion.

People who flunked economics think more efficiency is harmful.

Actually, people who flunked economics wonder why stripping jobs via "efficiency" pans out in fewer customers buying homes, food, gas and sundries at their manufacturing plant.

 

[Indeependent]

We have automation and yet we are still passing legislation to bring in "The Best and The Brightest".
Automation is great but we still need plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc.
We are also still shipping White Collar careers overseas.
Bottom line...Automation is NOT the problem.

 

[Desperado]

I think there needs to be maybe a mandatory clinic, maybe some sort of government certification program for CEOs to get a license

Unfreaking believable!!!! You are calling for more government control!!!
More Government licensing? What government agency/department operates more efficiently than a private company?

 

[Erand7899]

Building in inefficiencies isn't really the best solution IMO.

Labor is a resource. Making inefficient use of it would be like throwing away 1 out of every 10 trees you cut down.

You're missing the point friend. The point is that when you complain consumers aren't at your door buying the product you made with all your robots, you are really complaining about the way you do business and manufacturing. I'm not saying throw out all the robots. Just some of them. Maybe there could be tax breaks to incentivize those CEOs not into patriotism but only into profiteering insanely for themselves to reduce automation and increase human jobs...whatever it takes to get people back to work, earning enough money to walk into your store and buy the stuff you make.

I think people are really quite ignorant of the intricate interplay between human labor and economic health of a country.

Not as ignorant as you seem to think. Business does not do business for the purpose of supplying jobs to the populace. Nor, should it. It is the purpose of business to provide services and/or products that are wanted by the customers they cater to. A profitable business attempts to provide that service and/or product at the lowest possible price, consistant with their desire to stay in business.

Profitable businesses tend to generate jobs as they grow, and this is good for the people who are looking for those jobs. Unprofitable businesses shed jobs as they deteriorate. Labor intensive businesses are highly sensitive to labor rates, and those labor rates can easily determine whether that business stays profitable and growing.

The problem with jobs in this country is complex, and unless we start talking reality, and take on the reasons why jobs are not generating, and/or leaving, we are doomed to go the way of other economic powers who buried their heads in the sand and refused to accept reality. The chief hinderance to jobs is not business, but is government. And, the main reason why government is the chief hinderance, is an unreasonable voting population.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Your fucking kidding right? There have been robots on the line for longer then most on this board has been alive.

We've had HIV longer than most on this board have been alive. What's your point?

I remember a time before automation. And at that time a man who did not have a job was either insane, injured horribly or a total social outcast; jobs were that plentiful and the culture of working to support oneself and one's family was that much of a religion.

People who flunked economics think more efficiency is harmful.

Actually, people who flunked economics wonder why stripping jobs via "efficiency" pans out in fewer customers buying homes, food, gas and sundries at their manufacturing plant.

I have been waiting for you to post this (and I do have alot of respect for you to being a farmer) but ya do know business is not to provide job's right? It is about making money.

 

[Erand7899]

Throughout life, we all make tradeoffs in our desire to live an enjoyable and productive life. We don't buy the car of our dreams because we would rather eat and maintain a roof over our heads. We sacrifice fun time to get an education so that we can live better. We also tradeoff our wants and desires to provide for our offspring's wants and desires. Nations, do the same thing, and they live with the results of those tradeoffs.

Clean air and clean water are highly desirable assets, but neither comes without a tradeoff. We trade away jobs and access to resources to obtain clean air and water. The vast majority of Americans are willing to make those sacrifices, because we all like clean air and clean water. However, we require reasonableness in this noble cause. What level of clean air and clean water, justifies the cost in jobs and resources? In my humble opinion, we have gone beyond reasonableness, and the cost in jobs and resources is harming our economy.

Protection of consumers and investors is also highly desirable, and that means we need regulations to curb fraud, monopoly, etc., to keep our businesses honest and competitive. Again, we run into the question of reasonableness. When do regulations, designed to protect some, become an undue burden on others? Especially when those others are startups or emerging small businesses. How many jobs and opportunities are we willing to sacrifice to protection of the naive and foolish?

In the modern world, capital, which is the lifeblood of business, is highly mobile, and will gravitate to the places in the world where the best returns on investment can be obtained at acceptable risk to that capital. Without capital investment, there are no jobs. Period. That is reality!