Jane Roe going to Supreme Court.....

[musicman]

Gem:

Oh, I don't find you condescending at all. It's just that you seem to come pretty well-armed. Glad you're one of the good guys!

 

[CivilLiberty]

Thus far pro-choice groups are happy to just kill babies because it is legal--it is yet to be determined how they would react if they didn't get their way.

Pro choice groups don't kill babies. Doctors terminate pregnancies which involves embryos or fetuses and not involve babies. A baby is only a baby after it is born.


A

 

[CivilLiberty]

At this point, I am trying to decide whether you are strongly pro-choice, but aren't used to having to defend your position yet..

I think you're twisting my words out of context, but as I stated several times in several threads in the past, I happen to frequent this forum because it provides such a wide variety of highly conservative viewpoints.

If I post something on a progressive or libertarian oriented forum, I'll just hear a bunch of "I agree" comments. Posting here, I get a number of comments/challenges that I wouldn't hear otherwise, and that's very helpful to me as a writer.

I'll post my abortion article when I'm through.


Regards,


Andy

 

[KarlMarx]

Pro choice groups don't kill babies. Doctors terminate pregnancies which involves embryos or fetuses and not involve babies. A baby is only a baby after it is born.


A

Joseph Goebells couldn't come up with a better line than that gem of yours.

How convenient, how clean. You're just getting rid of a lump of tissue, just as if you're having a wart removed.

Sounds like....

"The Nazi party isn't killing Jews. We are just arriving at a final solution that involves those of subhuman races and does not involve people."

"The South doesn't enslave humans. We are just growing cotton using our property, these are not people, but slaves. See... the Supreme Court says so!"

"The Taliban doesn't deny people their rights. We are just arriving at a theocracy by keeping sinners in line. Women aren't people, only men are."

 

[Comrade]

Pro choice groups don't kill babies. Doctors terminate pregnancies which involves embryos or fetuses and not involve babies. A baby is only a baby after it is born.


A

That tempo reminds me of another oft quoted slogan:

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

or another version I like is:

"Guns don't kill people, the bullet I fired at that m*therf*cker who tried to break into my house did."


But your version of this is slightly modified to read:

"Foreceps don't crush the skull cavity of a living human being, doctors who were legally hired by the mother to terminate her child and put it into a baggie labeled 'Medical Waste' do."

 

[no1tovote4]

Liar. I pointed out that 80 percent of abortions happen in the FIRST trimester.

You claimed that "almost all abortions take place in the second trimester".

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=233826&highlight=second#post233826


Regards,


Andy

D'oh! I didn't remember that statement because it is not one that I actually believe and it was most definitely a statement in error and for that I apologize. I wasn't lying I just honestly didn't believe I would make such a statement as I know that it isn't true and therefore actually typed something that was incorrect in error not in actual attempt to make it true.

However it doesn't change the main question.

You made the statement, "No Brain = Not a Human Being."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231915&postcount=162

Therefore I posit the question. Brain activity begins at 40 days, and most surgical abortions happen after 40 days. Since we have brain activity then we must have a Human Being as per your original posit in the post shown above do you find it necessary to rethink your position and try to redifine it, or do you agree we should limit surgical abortion to before the moment of brain activity?

We have seen you attempt to redifine the position, restate it, and categorically deny that you ever made the posit, so I think we know what you are going to do. Attempt to change and redifine your argument to match what you actually want, abortions to continue regardless....

 

[no1tovote4]

I'm not being obtuse, you stated that most abortions occurred in the second trimester, which is false. 80% happen in the first trimester.

It's not a fetus till the third month, and even then the brain stem is primitive at best. the brain centers that control even the most basic life functions such as breathing don't develop until the 6th month.

At the 4th month, the fetal brain is about the size of a hazelnut - smaller than that of a cat, and far less developed. This primitive brain has not developed into an individual person, nor has it developed the nervous centers needed for sustaining life.





I never made the statement that "brain activity" is where I make the distinction - if anything I said brain development. There is a very significant difference.

And again, 80% of surgical abortions happen in the FIRST trimester, which means the FIRST 3 months.


Andy

Now you are lying, you said "No Brain = Not a human being"

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231915&postcount=162

Thus when brain activity starts at 40 days we now have a human being according to your definition. And since most abortions occur after 40 days we have a question as to your position. You make one statement in the post provided, then you attempt to make a different position later and therefore are being dishonest to either yourself or us or have made a posit in error as well.

Once again I apologize, I never tried to defend the second trimester because I don't believe it, know it is incorrect, and was shocked to discover that I actually did type it but I posted it in error. What I was meaning to say is that most surgical abortions occur after 40 days when brain activity can be recorded in the fetus.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Now you are lying, you said "No Brain = Not a human being"

I'm not lying, I know I said that. It is not, however a limiting factor in my argument.

My point is that before even the most primitive brain stem forms, it's ludicrous to call that a human being.

The statement "No Brain = Not a human being" holds true without question.

But that does not mean or imply that adding just a primitive brain stem makes it a human being then, either.

While primitive brain waves might start at 40 days, this does not mean that it suddenly becomes a human being.

A mouse has brain waves, too, and that does not make it a human.

Thus when brain activity starts at 40 days we now have a human being according to your definition.

No, my definition is that without a brain, there is no human, that does not mean that adding some brain elements makes it a human. That's a logical leap.

Once again I apologize, I never tried to defend the second trimester because I don't believe it, know it is incorrect, and was shocked to discover that I actually did type it but I posted it in error. What I was meaning to say is that most surgical abortions occur after 40 days when brain activity can be recorded in the fetus.

Okay, statement clarified. However, I don't consider mere brain "activity" as the signature of the human being. It is BRAIN DEVELOPMENT.

I point this out clearly in my article, which I am going to post here asa new thread.


Regards,

Andy

 

[manu1959]

My point is that before even the most primitive brain stem forms, it's ludicrous to call that a human being.

what would you like to call a human sperm that combines with a human egg that can only become a human....

once the egg and sperm combine and you abort it on purpose you are murdering a future human being....no way around it

 

[no1tovote4]

Okay, statement clarified. However, I don't consider mere brain "activity" as the signature of the human being. It is BRAIN DEVELOPMENT.

I point this out clearly in my article, which I am going to post here asa new thread.


Regards,

Andy

Which answered the question of whether you would change that statement from what it began as to something else in order to continue in the argument or whether you would admit that by that statement we could define brain activity as when human life started and therefore outlaw over 99% of surgical abortions.

However I do understand that clarifying your position isn't really changing it but it was beginning to be heated. However I still define a developing human as human at any stage of life regardless of how far the development has gone and know that my position is not "ludicrous" as you keep repeating. Attempting to get us to believe that it is "ludicrous" to have an opinion such as mine without respect to the opinion is also a logical fallacy called either Argument by Repetition or Argument Ad Nauseam.

In this we obviously cannot meet and therefore I reiterate my position from before that could possibly make both sides meet at least in function if not in beliefs.

 

[Bonnie]

Not sure what this proves Bonnie. It is the radical anti-abortionists that are torching clinics and murdering doctors.

Can you cite from pro-choice groups that have gone out and burned churches and murdered reverends in the name of choice?




Regards,


Andy

Sure bombing an abortion clinic happened in an extremely rare case and that's not what I was referring to in my post and you know it. Yet you keep harkening back to that, to make your case that many pro-life advoates are extremeists and your arguement doesn't hold water, because when you compare actions, rederic, and arguments, pro-lifers come out on top hands down.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm not lying, I know I said that. It is not, however a limiting factor in my argument.

My point is that before even the most primitive brain stem forms, it's ludicrous to call that a human being.

The statement "No Brain = Not a human being" holds true without question.

But that does not mean or imply that adding just a primitive brain stem makes it a human being then, either.

While primitive brain waves might start at 40 days, this does not mean that it suddenly becomes a human being.

A mouse has brain waves, too, and that does not make it a human.



No, my definition is that without a brain, there is no human, that does not mean that adding some brain elements makes it a human. That's a logical leap.





Okay, statement clarified. However, I don't consider mere brain "activity" as the signature of the human being. It is BRAIN DEVELOPMENT.

I point this out clearly in my article, which I am going to post here asa new thread.


Regards,

Andy

A mouse has brain waves, too, and that does not make it a human

.

I would imagine it has mouse brain waves and not human brain waves unless of course his name was Micky

 

[no1tovote4]

.

I would imagine it has mouse brain waves and not human brain waves unless of course his name was Micky

The thing is, even without brain waves the developing human is simply that, a developing human. This attempt to define it as any other thing is simply illogical and an attempt to redefine human in order to make people feel better about aborting offspring.

 

[Bonnie]

Pro choice groups don't kill babies. Doctors terminate pregnancies which involves embryos or fetuses and not involve babies. A baby is only a baby after it is born.


A

At least get your scientific terminology correct.

The terms "fetus" and preborn are the same. The fetus becomes a "neonate" when born. Fetus is a medical/scientific term for a preborn baby. Neonate is the equvalent term for a newborn baby.

At birth, the preborn child becomes a newborn child. At virth, the fetus becomes a neonate, both are the same only one is in English, the other in scientific lingo.

So the baby that is destined to be killed is a "fetus" and the fetus that is destined to be born is "a baby"?

How about the word "viable" defined as capable of living; especially born alive with such form and development of organs as to be normally capable of living (Websters Seventh ed) So if we use the more liberal terminology "capable of living" then a preborn baby is "viable". So in fact the preborn baby prior to it's 20 week gestation period, loses it's viability only when forcibly removed from it's mothers womb, nature will only abort a truly non viable preborn.

So the mother's womb is the natural environment for a human being in his or her first nine months of life and development. If a land mammal were then put into water it would not be "viable", and If a fish were put on fry land, it would not be viable..........so as a classification, human beings are nonviable relative to the environment outside the uterus, but only for the first five months of life, so for the young preborn, viability is lost ONLY after an abortion; if the proceedure itself does not kill the baby, removal form the baby's natural environment will.

According to Dr Jerome Lejeune, a French geneticist says that life begins at fertilization.

Dr Keith L. Moore states the fertilized ovum, known as a "Zygote" is a large diploid cell that is the beginnings of a human being.

Dr T. W. Sadler states that functioning neuroligical structures necessary for pain sensation are in place to a degree as early as 8 weeks.

It has been discovered in a week old embryo, a single cell of DNA can now tell us the sex of the embryo which tells me that qualifies for personhood. This is being done in peternity cases.

 

[Bonnie]

Joseph Goebells couldn't come up with a better line than that gem of yours.

How convenient, how clean. You're just getting rid of a lump of tissue, just as if you're having a wart removed.

Sounds like....

"The Nazi party isn't killing Jews. We are just arriving at a final solution that involves those of subhuman races and does not involve people."

"The South doesn't enslave humans. We are just growing cotton using our property, these are not people, but slaves. See... the Supreme Court says so!"

"The Taliban doesn't deny people their rights. We are just arriving at a theocracy by keeping sinners in line. Women aren't people, only men are."

 

[CivilLiberty]

How convenient, how clean. You're just getting rid of a lump of tissue, just as if you're having a wart removed.

Pretty much.


A

 

[musicman]

Pretty much.


A

I applaud your uncharacteristic candor, if nothing else. Didn't have to use your wordsmith's gift for sway in that tenderhearted, life-affirming little gem of a statement, did you?

 

[no1tovote4]

How convenient, how clean. You're just getting rid of a lump of tissue, just as if you're having a wart removed.

Pretty much.


A

'Nuff said.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally Posted by KarlMarx
How convenient, how clean. You're just getting rid of a lump of tissue, just as if you're having a wart removed.

Pretty much.


A

Its this kind of logic that the nazis used to justify their human experimentation and the holocaust. its dangerous and deadly.

If we continue promoting abortion our society will be destroyed because we will teach our future generations that life is not precious and valuable and that if you make choices that leave you with difficult consequences you can run away from your responsibilities.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Its this kind of logic that the nazis used to justify their human experimentation and the holocaust. its dangerous and deadly.

If we continue promoting abortion our society will be destroyed because we will teach our future generations that life is not precious and valuable and that if you make choices that leave you with difficult consequences you can run away from your responsibilities.

For the 40 years that abortions have been performed legally, our society has not been destroyed as a result. Nor have the other societies where it is practiced.

Andy