Jane Roe going to Supreme Court.....

[Bonnie]

I don't believe for a second that CivilLiberty is implying anything of the sort. I DO however, believe that CivilLiberty feels that his opinion on this subject is obvious and logical...and what I, and others, are trying to point out is that when it comes to this subject, people arriving to the same conclusion as he is isn't logical.

He was originally saying that something that small couldn't be human. Now he is saying that something without a developed brain (we don't know what HIS definition of appropriate brain development for life is) is not human.

What he is missing is that most ardently pro-life people are not saying that a one-month-old fetus is the same type of human as a 12-year-old child...but rather that it has the potential to reach that same status, and that it is quite actively working towards becoming that status...it isn't the woman's body, it is another body...growing, changing, and developing, more and more every second....and that because it would become a fully-functional human being if left alone killing it because it would be tough to have to wear maternity clothes for 9 months and then to give the child up for adoption would just be really embarrassing...is NOT a good enough reason to kill a living, growing "potential" human.

That is exactly right!!! I would also say that everyone who has children, or nieces, nephews, smaller siblings.......Take a good look at them now, the way they look and act, think, interract with them, and how much you care for them. NOw try to imagine if they had been aborted, you would have terminated everything that they have become or would have become, because they were destined to look, be, sound, just as they do right now give or take a little due to upbringing, nutrition, adult supervision etc....

You would have killed and stopped that from happening, and this argument has nothing to do with feelings, or religion, but of science and the natural progression of life form zygote to embryo, to fetus..........that's the bottom line. As a species we have no right to interfere with that process.

 

[musicman]

Outstanding post, Gem. Aptly titled, too.

 

[Gem]

One of the things I found most interesting about the article was that many of the reasons given by pro-abortion advocates prior to Roe V. Wade to allow abortions have been shown to be demonstrably false and untrue. The things that they felt legalizing abortion would "fix" have not been fixed, and in many cases, they have just gotten worse.

Legalizing abortion hasn't solved any of the problem people thought it would...and one could make a compelling argument that legalized abortion has caused far more problems on top of those problems that already existed and have grown worse.

Is it appropriate to blame abortions for an increase in poverty? No, of course not. But we should not allow pro-abortion supporters to ignore the fact that their predecessors fought for the right to abort based, in part, on the argument that it would LESSEN poverty.

We tried abortions on demand...what we ended up with was an abortion industry that makes hundreds of millions of dollars...all while claiming to be disinterested in the financial benefits of the business, an increase in the areas we were told would decrease if abortions were legalized, an entire generation of women silently mourning the part they played in the murder of their unborn children, and millions upon millions of babies killed.

When is it going to be alright for our society to say that we tried this experiment out...and it didn't work...and now it is time to try something else?

 

[Bonnie]

One of the things I found most interesting about the article was that many of the reasons given by pro-abortion advocates prior to Roe V. Wade to allow abortions have been shown to be demonstrably false and untrue. The things that they felt legalizing abortion would "fix" have not been fixed, and in many cases, they have just gotten worse.

Legalizing abortion hasn't solved any of the problem people thought it would...and one could make a compelling argument that legalized abortion has caused far more problems on top of those problems that already existed and have grown worse.

Is it appropriate to blame abortions for an increase in poverty? No, of course not. But we should not allow pro-abortion supporters to ignore the fact that their predecessors fought for the right to abort based, in part, on the argument that it would LESSEN poverty.

We tried abortions on demand...what we ended up with was an abortion industry that makes hundreds of millions of dollars...all while claiming to be disinterested in the financial benefits of the business, an increase in the areas we were told would decrease if abortions were legalized, an entire generation of women silently mourning the part they played in the murder of their unborn children, and millions upon millions of babies killed.

When is it going to be alright for our society to say that we tried this experiment out...and it didn't work...and now it is time to try something else?

Great question! I suspect the answer if left up to the Pro-abortion Industry will be NEVER!

 

[elephant]

Once again, when making a law you need to see if it is an improvement for society or a nightmare of Government invasion. In this case for one person I can see your point. However in order to regulate every pregnancy to such a minimal fashion you would need to create a bureaucracy that would oversee every pregnancy, making sure that every woman knows correctly how to be pregnant and when they can get pregnant. At this point, I do not see an improvement but a horrible inconvenient and invasive government agency creating an impossible situation that would not lead to an improvement in society.

In every case you must have a give and take on laws. I choose to draw the line at who gets pregnant, you obviously want the line drawn even further. I simply do not want the direct and knowledgable action of killing babies for convenience; you, however, begin to think of how to regulate their behavior from the beginning.

What would the benefit to society be to create a law where getting pregnant itself would be illegal and who would that law hurt the most, or help the most?

Actually I am not trying to draw any lines. You want abortion to be illegal – therefore fetuses are people, therefore killing them is murder. Now I am asking “how do you think your new line works?” I am suggesting that it does not. I could care less about regulating pregnancies. I am regulating murder which is what the law currently does.

How can you draw a line at who gets pregnant? As a matter of fact that is unclear in its meaning to begin with, but I will attempt point out its shortcomings.

So at what point does a woman who cannot have children get arrested for trying over and over and over? Never apparently. But if she has two drinks and then a miscarriage, of a child she was mostly likely never going to have (aw shucks, but she really, really wanted to have a baby and that means the fetus is a person, but she can never be held accountable unless some outside influence causes the miscarriage), both she and the bartender are looking at prison time. This makes great sense.

Fertility clinics will be out of the question. To get pregnant they make like 30 or more zygotes and often result in large numbers of fetuses, some of which are selectively aborted. Who can have 4 or 5 babies at once? And after she gives birth she will HAVE to return to the clinic to bear the other zygotes to term or she and the husband and the clinic are all murderers. They created life with the full knowledge that some of the zygotes will die. These people really want to be pregnant and have children, so I guess they are ok.

Or your law only applies to people who get pregnant naturally?

So where is the line again?

For people who want to have babies it is always ok to get abortions or have miscarriages despite any previous indication that they cannot have children, but if a woman might be pregnant and does not want to have a baby then it is never ok?

The gives and takes must be applied equally. That is what I trying to understand. So your law is better why?

 

[elephant]

One of the things I found most interesting about the article was that many of the reasons given by pro-abortion advocates prior to Roe V. Wade to allow abortions have been shown to be demonstrably false and untrue. The things that they felt legalizing abortion would "fix" have not been fixed, and in many cases, they have just gotten worse.

Legalizing abortion hasn't solved any of the problem people thought it would...and one could make a compelling argument that legalized abortion has caused far more problems on top of those problems that already existed and have grown worse.

Is it appropriate to blame abortions for an increase in poverty? No, of course not. But we should not allow pro-abortion supporters to ignore the fact that their predecessors fought for the right to abort based, in part, on the argument that it would LESSEN poverty.

We tried abortions on demand...what we ended up with was an abortion industry that makes hundreds of millions of dollars...all while claiming to be disinterested in the financial benefits of the business, an increase in the areas we were told would decrease if abortions were legalized, an entire generation of women silently mourning the part they played in the murder of their unborn children, and millions upon millions of babies killed.

When is it going to be alright for our society to say that we tried this experiment out...and it didn't work...and now it is time to try something else?

If they feel guilty that is their problem. No one MADE them get abotions. It was an OPTION. What is so difficult to understand about this? Prolifers should stop being idiots. Yes you are idiots. STOP WOMAN FROM WANTING ABORTIONS. Making them illegal is like outlawing marijuana. IT DOES NOT AND WILL NEVER WORK.

Yes medicine is an industry. Abortions are performed by doctors, members of the medical industry. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY MAKING THEM ILLEGAL WILL NOT STOP THEM. Doctors will set up clinics in Canada and Mexico and charge even more and make even more money. Fighting the drug war makes drugs more expensive not less.

PLEASE choose the right battle.

Serious question, not trying to put you on the spot, but can you site where in the Supreme court decision the lessening of poverty is given as motive for their decision?

 

[elephant]

Bonnie: "Yes of course because the best way to further the baby killing agenda and make it more acceptable is to make those that oppose it look moronic and extreme. The truth really kills liberals!!"

That is my question - Are you serious?

 

[krisy]

If they feel guilty that is their problem. No one MADE them get abotions. It was an OPTION. What is so difficult to understand about this? Prolifers should stop being idiots. Yes you are idiots. STOP WOMAN FROM WANTING ABORTIONS. Making them illegal is like outlawing marijuana. IT DOES NOT AND WILL NEVER WORK.

Yes medicine is an industry. Abortions are performed by doctors, members of the medical industry. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY MAKING THEM ILLEGAL WILL NOT STOP THEM. Doctors will set up clinics in Canada and Mexico and charge even more and make even more money. Fighting the drug war makes drugs more expensive not less.

PLEASE choose the right battle.

Serious question, not trying to put you on the spot, but can you site where in the Supreme court decision the lessening of poverty is given as motive for their decision?

I'm not positive,but I don't think anyone resorted to calling you names because of your stanse. Have you ever thought that maybe the majority of abortions are performed on women that were just irresponsible? Maybe that is an idiotic thing to do. You call prolifers idiots,yet who is the one calling names? You say outlawing abortion will never work. At some point it did. But have you ever stopped to think that maybe if a woman knows that she doesn't have an easy out like an abortion that maybe she will act a little more responsibly? Yes,some unwanted prgnancies will still happen,but I bet the number would decrease. There are too many women that use it as a form of birth control.

 

[elephant]

I'm not positive,but I don't think anyone resorted to calling you names because of your stanse. Have you ever thought that maybe the majority of abortions are performed on women that were just irresponsible? Maybe that is an idiotic thing to do. You call prolifers idiots,yet who is the one calling names? You say outlawing abortion will never work. At some point it did. But have you ever stopped to think that maybe if a woman knows that she doesn't have an easy out like an abortion that maybe she will act a little more responsibly? Yes,some unwanted prgnancies will still happen,but I bet the number would decrease. There are too many women that use it as a form of birth control.

I am sorry. But for the record, I was the one calling names. You can call me names if will make you feel better.

Now, did you get my point? Well apperently not. The law did not work before - that is why it was changed. Ok now dealing with the current reality. The world is 'smaller' (that is, travel and information are cheaper) and abortions ,relative to income cost much less expensive now than they did 40 years ago. Illegal in the U.S. does not stop anything. It would be a completely hollow victory, wouldn't it?

So you are all for actively teaching and advocating ALL information on how not to get pregnant. And to ALL girls and women of any age that possibly could get pregnant.

We can have ads that follow the Viagra and Cialis and Girls Gone Wild ads right?

Now I have not done well on this board with examples, bt I will try another:

You said,"But have you ever stopped to think that maybe if a woman knows that she doesn't have an easy out like an abortion that maybe she will act a little more responsibly? "

Yes because I am not an idiot. Sorry to disappoint you.

There are many studies PROVING that every safety innovation made for automobiles has CAUSED MORE accidents. So to stop people who do not drive well from raising my insurance rates, I would like to remove safety devices from there cars. Teenagers being the worst drivers will get no air bags or safety belts or crumple zones, etc.

People who get one DUI should have their safety belts removed. A second DUI will mean you are issued a motorcycle, no helmet.

This is genius right?

 

[Bonnie]

Bonnie: "Yes of course because the best way to further the baby killing agenda and make it more acceptable is to make those that oppose it look moronic and extreme. The truth really kills liberals!!"

That is my question - Are you serious?

Yes, I am serious... when pro-choice advocates go out of their way to demean and degrade a church for having a funeral for aborted babies as a way to show they are against such practices it shows that they are doing everything they can to impune those that think abortion is murder certainly the effect they wish to have to is to take away credibility from the pro-life movement and further their agenda making abortion more acceptable.

What part of that isn't true?? If the pro-choice movement is so damn sure they are right then why do they care if people protest abortion???? What's the problem??

 

[Bonnie]

I am sorry. But for the record, I was the one calling names. You can call me names if will make you feel better.

Now, did you get my point? Well apperently not. The law did not work before - that is why it was changed. Ok now dealing with the current reality. The world is 'smaller' (that is, travel and information are cheaper) and abortions ,relative to income cost much less expensive now than they did 40 years ago. Illegal in the U.S. does not stop anything. It would be a completely hollow victory, wouldn't it?

So you are all for actively teaching and advocating ALL information on how not to get pregnant. And to ALL girls and women of any age that possibly could get pregnant.

We can have ads that follow the Viagra and Cialis and Girls Gone Wild ads right?

Now I have not done well on this board with examples, bt I will try another:

You said,"But have you ever stopped to think that maybe if a woman knows that she doesn't have an easy out like an abortion that maybe she will act a little more responsibly? "

Yes because I am not an idiot. Sorry to disappoint you.

There are many studies PROVING that every safety innovation made for automobiles has CAUSED MORE accidents. So to stop people who do not drive well from raising my insurance rates, I would like to remove safety devices from there cars. Teenagers being the worst drivers will get no air bags or safety belts or crumple zones, etc.

People who get one DUI should have their safety belts removed. A second DUI will mean you are issued a motorcycle, no helmet.

This is genius right?

So how about you provide some number comparisons of the amount of abortions performed before it was "legal" and then the numbers of abortions after?

If restricting abortions will not serve as a deterent, then prove it!!

 

[elephant]

What part of that isn't true?? If the pro-choice movement is so damn sure they are right then why do they care if people protest abortion???? What's the problem??

Sure to be right about what? What are you talking about? If you respond to anything please clarify what the last part of your post means.

I could not care less if churches want to have funerals. Maybe the clinics could work with the churches if that makes everyone feel better.

The problem with pro-lifers protesting? None really. But have you ever seen a group of pro-choicers in front of a church protesting your religion? You can believe what you want. Would you feel better if someone wrote down "God says abortion is OK by Him." and called it a religious text. You would not have to believe it, but someone else could.

Not everyone believes the Bible.

 

[Bonnie]

Sure to be right about what? What are you talking about? If you respond to anything please clarify what the last part of your post means.

I have idea what you are asking here, excpet possibly the part I said if the pro-choice movement is so sure they are right in supporting abortion, then why do they have such problem with pro-life demonstrations??

I could not care less if churches want to have funerals. Maybe the clinics could work with the churches if that makes everyone feel better.

Now this one is hysterical as I was pointing to an earlier post that was an article about a church having a funeral for aborted babies, and the all out assault the pro-choicers made on this church and it's congregation for being stupid and radical. And I made this point to illustrate my point about pro-choice advocates mocking those that disagree with them in order to take away pro-life advocates credibility. Savvy?

The problem with pro-lifers protesting? None really. But have you ever seen a group of pro-choicers in front of a church protesting your religion?

As a matter of fact I have right in front of St Patricks Cathedral in Manhattan, to the point there were some that were arrested for manhandling those trying to get into the church for worship, but that's really not the point and has nothing to do with what i said in my previous post regarding protests in general

You can believe what you want. Would you feel better if someone wrote down "God says abortion is OK by Him." and called it a religious text. You would not have to believe it, but someone else could.

This one I have no idea what your talking about? It doesn't even make sense???

Not everyone believes the Bible

.

True and so what does that have to do with Pro-choicers completley disrespecting the opinons and actions of pro-lifers??? By the way a good number of people in the pro-life movent do not beleive in the bible but have a humanistic respect for human life even without religious motivations. I have met many fo these remarkable people.

 

[Gem]

Wow....where to begin, Elephant


I suppose I'll start by saying that your generalizations and insults are making you look like childish. Now don't get me wrong, every board needs an asshole or two...but I was under the impression earlier that you DIDN'T want to audition for that role...maybe I was wrong...this is an interesting topic, and we could use more variety of opinion...but its pointless if you can't express yourself without being a tool...

If they feel guilty that is their problem. No one MADE them get abotions. It was an OPTION. What is so difficult to understand about this? Prolifers should stop being idiots. Yes you are idiots. STOP WOMAN FROM WANTING ABORTIONS. Making them illegal is like outlawing marijuana. IT DOES NOT AND WILL NEVER WORK.

"No one MADE them get abortions" is an interesting statement. Many women, especially young women, who have come forward after their abortions say just the opposite....that they felt INCREDIBLY pressured to get abortions...that there was NO other option mentioned to them...that they were MADE to get an abortion by family, friends, boyfriends, doctors, society...all telling them that going forward with the pregnancy while trying to finish highschool or college would be impossible.

For most women the only reasonable "option," as you put it...is abortion.
To downplay that as you have is to demonstrate that you have your eyes closed to the abortion industry and the reality of an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy.

Yes medicine is an industry. Abortions are performed by doctors, members of the medical industry. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY MAKING THEM ILLEGAL WILL NOT STOP THEM. Doctors will set up clinics in Canada and Mexico and charge even more and make even more money. Fighting the drug war makes drugs more expensive not less.
PLEASE choose the right battle.

I agree with you in most of what you have said here, abortions will always be available in the world, many doctors would continue to perform them. But in your rush to insult people you missed simply ASKING people how they planned on dealing with the obvious problems that would arise from making abortions illegal...

For instance, I am not in support of making abortions illegal. I'm in support of drastically altering the system as it exists today.

Serious question, not trying to put you on the spot, but can you site where in the Supreme court decision the lessening of poverty is given as motive for their decision?

The Supreme Court's decision in Roe V. Wade was that what occurs between a person and her doctor should remain private, hence one of the reasons it will not be overturned...however, subsequent rulings perverted that ruling...at first Roe v. Wade was only for abortions being available on-demand during the first trimenst, only in the case of the life of the mother in the second and third. Later, it became more and more lax...until it got to the point where the "health of the mother" included emotional stress, economic stability...or simply not wanting a baby right then.

The Supreme Court looked at many options and reasons for their decision...however, as we have seen in the past...sometimes laws and rulings change based upon new information...and as so many argue regarding gun rights, seperation of church and state, etc....we must constantly be working towards a legal system that works with our society as it exists today.

To deny that many of the reasons people fought for abortions turned out to be utter bullshit is again, to either be ignorant of the subject matter, or to be unwilling to educate yourself because you are unwilling to change your already decided upon opinion.

Serious question, not to put you on the spot, elephant...but can I ask you whether your are male or female and your age, or at the very least where you are in life? Highschool, college, young adult, middle aged, however you would like to classify yourself?

 

[elephant]

So how about you provide some number comparisons of the amount of abortions performed before it was "legal" and then the numbers of abortions after?

If restricting abortions will not serve as a deterrent, then prove it!!

How about you prove that it is? I already have the law on my side.

Also this will not stop people from wanting them. I have suggested that stopping the demand for abortions would be a better strategy for prolifers to take. But that would be too hard I imagine. It would take actual work which might inconvience you. I would hate for you to miss church.

Before you respond. You will NEVER be able to get the number of abortions performed before the law was changed (Maybe this is why you asked me to do it, you thought I was really dumb or maybe you would really like to know the answer). Why? 1) You cannot track the number of abortions performed by doctors accurately because they were ILLEGAL. People were probably not reporting when they got one to Census Bureau 2) You cannot get data for the number of Americans that left the U.S. to get them abroad. 3) You will need the number of people who intentionally caused their spontaneous abortion without any doctor assistance - these will be missing from any records anywhere 4) Did doctors find loopholes in the law and perform them right in their offices, calling it something else? You need to count these to.

Now you need to account for change in population. So I would like an accurate per capita number and please cite your sources accurately.

Finally I would appreciate a well developed argument that IF the per capita number of abortions has increased that it is BECAUSE of the change in the abortion laws. Cause and effect are important in this kind of argument.

I could easily argue that this theoretical change is because women are better educated or the opportunity cost of having a child has increased for women (that means they make more money than they did 40 years ago). There are a number of good arguments that the law changing is not the reason any apparent change in the number of abortions.

And make sure the change is statistically significant.

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Bonnie]

How about you prove that it is? I already have the law on my side.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right! Supreme court justices are falable and make bad decisions all the time based on their own biases.

I have suggested that stopping the demand for abortions would be a better strategy for prolifers to take. But that would be too hard I imagine. It would take actual work which might inconvience you. I would hate for you to miss church.

There are many pro-life groups that do exaclty that and that is the foundation for all of their efforts. There are foundations all over the country that provide all kinds of alternatives to abortion, and even provide schooling, career training, shelter, food, while the mother carries her baby to term, then she can decide of she wants to keep it or give it up for adoption, and all of this is done thru the volunteering and HARD WORK of "church people" and clergy.

You will NEVER be able to get the number of abortions performed before the law was changed

True but I can give you the numbers of abortions that have been performed after it was legalized and I can gurantee those numbers would dwarf any number even conceived before abortion was legalized. Doesn't matter that there were back alley abortions and they can not be counted, so don't even go there!

(Maybe this is why you asked me to do it,

I asked becasue you made a sweeping statement that in no way would making abortion illegal make them occur less, so I wanted you to back that up, which of course you can't!!! And the fact that many would still want to have abortions well so what, many people want to steal money, but most don't because it's illegal!!

 

[elephant]

Wow....where to begin, Elephant

Well at the beginning would be nice.

I suppose I'll start by saying that your generalizations and insults are making you look like childish. Now don't get me wrong, every board needs an asshole or two...but I was under the impression earlier that you DIDN'T want to audition for that role...maybe I was wrong...this is an interesting topic, and we could use more variety of opinion...but its pointless if you can't express yourself without being a tool...

What generalizations? People love to throw out garbage facts all over this board. I am usually just voicing my opinion. You should address the generalizations instead of just generalizing. Seriously are you getiing to all of them below. If not I would be happy to clarify anything that was too general.

"No one MADE them get abortions" is an interesting statement. Many women, especially young women, who have come forward after their abortions say just the opposite....that they felt INCREDIBLY pressured to get abortions...that there was NO other option mentioned to them...that they were MADE to get an abortion by family, friends, boyfriends, doctors, society...all telling them that going forward with the pregnancy while trying to finish highschool or college would be impossible.

Whatever. I am sticking to my guns on this one. No one made them do it. Lack of information, evil boyfriends, the system keeping women down - not my fault. You want to stop abortions then you should spread the newer, better, more insightful information. Abortions will decrease, you will be happy.

For most women the only reasonable "option," as you put it...is abortion.
To downplay that as you have is to demonstrate that you have your eyes closed to the abortion industry and the reality of an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy.

Actually I said I agree that abortion is a very large and lucrative industry. I even said that making it illegal would cause a run on franchising abortion clinics along our borders and those companies would be traded on the NYSE.

I agree with you in most of what you have said here, abortions will always be available in the world, many doctors would continue to perform them. But in your rush to insult people you missed simply ASKING people how they planned on dealing with the obvious problems that would arise from making abortions illegal...

Thanks.., and I have asked numerous questions about how it would be handled and there came a point where the answers were, to paraphrase myself, idiotic. So I got frustrated. And like you I am hurt that everyone here thinks I am pro-choice. I just don’t care. I want things to stay the same, because the current laws are more easily enforced than any proposed laws I have seen.

For instance, I am not in support of making abortions illegal. I'm in support of drastically altering the system as it exists today.

How?

The Supreme Court's decision in Roe V. Wade was that what occurs between a person and her doctor should remain private, hence one of the reasons it will not be overturned...however, subsequent rulings perverted that ruling...at first Roe v. Wade was only for abortions being available on-demand during the first trimenst, only in the case of the life of the mother in the second and third. Later, it became more and more lax...until it got to the point where the "health of the mother" included emotional stress, economic stability...or simply not wanting a baby right then.

Sounds like we need to take a look at that. So much easier to move toward more the lax is it not?

The Supreme Court looked at many options and reasons for their decision...however, as we have seen in the past...sometimes laws and rulings change based upon new information...and as so many argue regarding gun rights, seperation of church and state, etc....we must constantly be working towards a legal system that works with our society as it exists today.

Uh-huh. (“Hoo-ray for guns”) What does not work now, by the way?

To deny that many of the reasons people fought for abortions turned out to be utter bullshit is again, to either be ignorant of the subject matter, or to be unwilling to educate yourself because you are unwilling to change your already decided upon opinion.

No. I am just saying that protestors and lawyers have different arguments. Just because you hear an argument at a rally just means that it appeals to the group at hand. I really only care about the legal arguments.

And you will find it difficult to change my mind because I do not agree with pro-choicers. Life does start at conception. I just do not put the same value on it as a fully formed and functional human. I am not really into ‘potential people’. That said I would want to have the child if my girlfriend/wife were pregnant. But then again I do not have any reason not to. My life is pretty good.

(You did a better job than I did. Making your insults veiled behind an impenetrable argument. "If you disagree you lack the education and possibly the intellectual capacity to see why you are wrong and now I pity you." It is very nice. But now what do I do. If I agrue against you can always just say it is because I am stupid or I am unwilling to learn, both of which are bad. You should leave me a third option.)

Serious question, not to put you on the spot, elephant...but can I ask you whether your are male or female and your age, or at the very least where you are in life? Highschool, college, young adult, middle aged, however you would like to classify yourself?

Now you must be kidding. No one knows anything about anybody else on these boards. I think it should stay that way.

I am elephant, the ultimate conservative, enough said.

I’ll have some to say later, but I have to go for now.

 

[Bonnie]

Here you go Elephant

from three seperate sources...........The numbers average to about 40 million babies aborted since 1973

www.cirtl.org/stats.htm


www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.htm

womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionlaw/a/aaroevwade.htm

 

[elephant]

True but I can give you the numbers of abortions that have been performed after it was legalized and I can gurantee those numbers would dwarf any number even conceived before abortion was legalized. Doesn't matter that there were back alley abortions and they can not be counted, so don't even go there!





I asked becasue you made a sweeping statement that in no way would making abortion illegal make them occur less, so I wanted you to back that up, which of course you can't!!!

OK, so what are these awesome, dwarfing numbers again? I can back up anything currently - at least as well as you can. There is no good information supporting either of us.

Also you have not addressed the cause/effect relationship. That would be helpful.

By the way did you see the relationship with the car example I gave.

 

[elephant]

Here you go Elephant

from three seperate sources...........The numbers average to about 40 million babies aborted since 1973

www.cirtl.org/stats.htm


www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.htm

womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionlaw/a/aaroevwade.htm

These are really great, impartial, peer-reviewed sources.