It's that time of year again-the dirty forehead club

[Meriweather]

Why be upset about me doing the work if you don't believe it works? If it doesn't work, whose it bothering? I think your "upset" is bogus nonsense. If it's true, then they are blessed. Good grief!

Let's see. You want me to respect your work of showing great disrespect to the sacred beliefs of others. What is wrong with me wanting you to show respect to me and to my family and our beliefs? What makes your beliefs/works deserving of my respect, while mine are not worthy of yours?

This has nothing to do with what "works". We both know (you according to your scripture in Alma) that proxy baptism is invalid. It has no consent from the one who is dead. It is pure hubris and arrogance to go against both the will of the deceased, not to mention the will of God who granted us all free will in such matters. You place yourself above God, and all who believe in God are right to point out this heresy.

 

[Meriweather]

And, I had the consent of my Grandchildren.

Did you have the consent of their parents?

 

[Meriweather]

But, you didn't have the consent of your children to be baptized as an infant.

I did not have the consent of my children to be their mother. Being their mother comes with both authority over and responsibility for the child. As I said, Catholic theology embraces children--even infants--into the Body of Christ. They are raised within that Body. They are born--and then immediately born again into the spirit of the Lord.

If you wish to prevent your own children from entering into that born again spirit, that is your option, your choice. You are their parent, with a parent's authority and responsibility.

 

[Meriweather]

Maybe they want to be in the body of some other religion rather than Catholicism.

I already covered this. At the present time I am helping my daughter with her studies of Judaism. I also have a goddaughter who I blessed upon her decision to follow the Jewish faith.

 

[Meriweather]

but this girl would not have been so lucky to explain her deception at the judgment seat

According to your judgment...

 

[Cougarbear]

Your "ordinance" was never one of the seven sacraments given by Christ. Even those who take Paul's words to mean dead people were being baptized by proxy, cannot show where Paul endorsed or approved what some were doing in Corinth.

The translation has always been problematic because the original "huber" has so many different variations. One of the Church Fathers notes that Paul's words are more correctly translated as "being baptized with a view to death", particularly in view of what Paul follows with--that of the suffering that he himself faces and is enabled to endure precisely because of his faith in his resurrection. In any case, baptizing in the place of the dead was never Apostolic teaching. That is something the LDS Church came up with 1800 years later.

That is interesting in itself because your book, Alma 34:35-36, it states:

“For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.”

You talk about rationalization of not doing the Lord's works. WOW! Blame it on the old nonsense of "translation." Baptize for the dead is very easy to understand. Paul was teaching about the resurrection. Paul did not approve of using falsehoods to prove truth. So, when he asked why they were doing ordinance work for the dead when they didn't believe in the resurrection, he was showing their hypocrisy not believing in the resurrection. Do you believe that you will be resurrected?

The "Church Fathers" reminds me of a couple of missionaries in our town about 40 years ago stopped at a Southern Baptist Church when a Pastor asked them to come in (so he could bible bash them). The question finally got around to baptism for the dead. The Pastor said there's nothing in the bible that says to baptize for the dead. So, the Elders had him turn to 1Corinthians 15:29. The Pastor abruptly ripped that page from his bible and exclaimed, "Not in my Bible!" The Elders then taught more doctrine that is actually in the bible but rejected by most Christian faiths (including Catholicism).

There are many that believe they can do wickedness up to the time of their death and then repent and accept Christ. Alma's words are a warning that this belief is false and should be avoided. Repentance isn't something to be taken lightly. As usual, many take phrases out of context with the entire plan of salvation to delay the day of their repentance. Those who are wicked and deny the Holy Ghost shall spend eternity in Perdition with the devil. But, those who bow their knee at the judgment seat of Christ, although non-repentant in life shall not be subject to Perdition. They will not, however, receive eternal life in the Celestial Glory as Paul taught in 1Corinthians chapter 15 and in which he saw that 3rd highest heaven, The Celestial mansion. They will receive a lesser glory or light of Terrestrial or Telestial (the light or glory of the stars). They will not have eternal increase in joy and posterity.

 

[Cougarbear]

Let's see. You want me to respect your work of showing great disrespect to the sacred beliefs of others. What is wrong with me wanting you to show respect to me and to my family and our beliefs? What makes your beliefs/works deserving of my respect, while mine are not worthy of yours?

This has nothing to do with what "works". We both know (you according to your scripture in Alma) that proxy baptism is invalid. It has no consent from the one who is dead. It is pure hubris and arrogance to go against both the will of the deceased, not to mention the will of God who granted us all free will in such matters. You place yourself above God, and all who believe in God are right to point out this heresy.

However, the sacred beliefs of others is still false doctrine. The individuals who are dead, but their spirits reside in spirit prison may have accepted the true gospel of Jesus Christ and want their works done for them. What disrespect you have for their beliefs. When I was baptized, I was invited to the Church office by a General Authority of the Church. He was involved with community work with the local synagogue and so when a Jew gets baptized, he's interested. I got to ask him many questions. One was about honoring my mother and father. He said that it means to honor your parents in righteousness. So, when my wife and I were invited to Passover at their house, it was correct to not drink the wine. My parents were righteous and always had grape juice ready for us. So, we participated with them. It gets back to what's right like the girl who wanted to convert to Judaism by denying the Holy Ghost and Christ. All she wanted to do is show respect to her new husband. By the way, she did not convert and he respected her decision and beliefs. Why do you not want to respect the beliefs of LDS people who are only doing what they believe to be helpful to the dead.
I already covered your lack of knowledge of our scriptures and taking out of context anything that supports your claim.

To our "free will" or what we call is free moral agency - The right to choose good or evil. The work we do doesn't force a spirit person to accept the work. They have the free agency to not accept it. We do it for those who do accept it. Although, if one is not baptized, they cannot enter the kingdom of God. So, God has in the past as well as today commanded his true disciples to do all the necessary ordinances for eternal life including baptisms for the dead. So, we accept this commandment by covenant and let the decisions be made by the person and God. No heresy or placing ourselves above God. 1Peter 3:18 - 22. Jesus preaches to the spirits in prison. Those who did not accept or have the opportunity to accept the Gospel in life. And, as in verse 21, baptism is still required. So, their bodies and spirits are separated and their bodies turned to ash. How are they going to get baptized if someone on earth doesn't do it for them? Actually, what the Lord did is organize a missionary force to do the preaching. Remember, God cannot look upon any degree of wickedness.

 

[Cougarbear]

According to your judgment...

According to the New Testament where it says the unpardonable sin is denying the Holy Ghost. Funny how it's okay for you to judge LDS members by attempting to use scripture but it's not for us to do.

 

[Cougarbear]

I already covered this. At the present time I am helping my daughter with her studies of Judaism. I also have a goddaughter who I blessed upon her decision to follow the Jewish faith.

And, to deny the Christ. Good job! Now, I would still believe you should love her and be kind. Just as we should with all sinners like gay people. Heck, I support my brother and his family in their faith and because I do, they support me and my family in our faith. It was tough for them in the beginning. But, they see the fruits of the gospel in my life. They perform their ordinances and I do mine. We don't spend petty time in feeling upset over them. Life's too short to worry about that stuff.

 

[Meriweather]

Blame it on the old nonsense of "translation."

I gather you have never studied ancient languages and the issues they present. For example, Hebrew is an objective language, while English is subjective. Hebrew has only about 33,000 words, while English over 450,000 words. It makes a difference.

 

[Meriweather]

So, the Elders had him turn to 1Corinthians 15:29. The Pastor abruptly ripped that page from his bible and exclaimed, "Not in my Bible!"

Not how I would have handled it. I would have asked your Elders to show scripture where Paul or any of the other Apostles baptized by proxy. Point to any other ancient Christian community...scholars haven't been able to find one yet.

 

[Meriweather]

Why do you not want to respect the beliefs of LDS people who are only doing what they believe to be helpful to the dead.

That was my question to you. Why will you not respect my beliefs and what I believe to be sacred? Why do you feel you have power over me?

 

[Meriweather]

We do it for those who do accept it.

In other words, you believe your proxy baptism to be a "throw away" ordinance, worthy of being spat upon by those who do not "accept" it.

 

[Cougarbear]

I did not have the consent of my children to be their mother. Being their mother comes with both authority over and responsibility for the child. As I said, Catholic theology embraces children--even infants--into the Body of Christ. They are raised within that Body. They are born--and then immediately born again into the spirit of the Lord.

If you wish to prevent your own children from entering into that born again spirit, that is your option, your choice. You are their parent, with a parent's authority and responsibility.

But, baptism is for the remission of sins. Not for admission into the Lord's Church. Mark 1:4, "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." It should also be understood that to enter into "The Kingdom of God" which is "Eternal Life" (not just salvation) we have to be baptized by water and of the spirit. John 3:5, "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless anyone be born of water and of the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God." So, the laying on of hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost is also required. Here's where Paul's account of the 3 degrees of Heaven are important. To get into the lower portions like Terrestrial or Telestial parts of the kingdom, baptism isn't required. It's only required for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom or Eternal Life. We have to realize Jesus said that all the things he taught should not be written down. Again, a need for a Prophet to clarify doctrine. Something you don't have where you are at.

As for your last statement, that's just ignorance. Children aren't accountable until they can be for their sins and understand the eternal perspective of things like death. You bury a pet in the ground in front of a 5 year old, they will ask you when will it come out of the ground again. They don't understand and cannot be condemned for their disobedience. Hence, they cannot sin. Therefore, if they die before the age of accountability, they will be raised to Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom. Jesus said, become as a little child for they are the kingdom of God. It's repulsive to Christ to baptize a young child for they have no need for it for they cannot sin. We also believe that those with mental illness that keeps a person from advancing in this knowledge are also sinless. A Mental retarded person, like one of my great uncles, is like a little child. He will be in the kingdom of God. I take great comfort to know these things and know they are true. The Holy Ghost bears this truth to me.

 

[Cougarbear]

That was my question to you. Why will you not respect my beliefs and what I believe to be sacred? Why do you feel you have power over me?

I respect your belief to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ and his commandments. I'm not baptizing you. I'm baptizing your sister when she dies. It's sacred to me to give something to her you couldn't and is necessary for her eternal progression. I know you love your sister. I do to and have never met her. How about that!

 

[Cougarbear]

In other words, you believe your proxy baptism to be a "throw away" ordinance, worthy of being spat upon by those who do not "accept" it.

You can baptize a baby who later in life throws it away and follows Satan. What's the difference? You do nothing to try and understand other people. You claim you do. But, as I've shared with you scriptures after scriptures, logic after logic, you fail to try and understand. I know many people who don't accept all of our teachings and don't get baptized but do respect and understand us. At least you know it's a "proxy" baptism and not digging up dead bodies and baptizing them. There are some that believe that.
So, since we do not know the people, can't talk with them, we do the ordinance work so that if they choose to accept the work and the gospel taught to them in spirit prison, it's done. They can move over to Paradise and await their resurrection.

 

[shimon]

Well look at this I have been gone a short time and typical burial and coverup tactics by those who wish to flood the board with rediculous off topic discussions… If you want to have a discussion about baptism and the like start your own thread instead of wrecking this one on purpose..We have seen these tactics on many occasions to say the least..

 

[petro]

Mocking religion in general is good and fine but mocking a person's personal faith marks you as an asshole.

I rarely agree with you, but spot on here.

 

[Meriweather]

It's repulsive to Christ to baptize a young child for they have no need for it for they cannot sin.

You speak for Christ? Really.

It appears we even differ on the definition of eternal life. Eternal life begins right here, right now, with life in Christ and belief in his proclamation that sins ARE forgiven. We baptize our children into this eternal life in Christ and the knowledge sins are forgiven.

Keep in mind, I have no problem with people of the LDS faith having their children wait. That is your faith, your decision, and I respect that.

I see it differently, so I live my life in Christ differently. And I certainly didn't wait until I was eight years old--nor did I have my children wait. That is my faith, my decision. It is based on Christ and his ways, on scripture, on Apostolic teachings and traditions.

Your beliefs and your traditions do not negate mine. I am simply happy I grew up in the Catholic faith, not in the LDS faith. But that is me, not you.

 

[Meriweather]

I respect your belief to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ and his commandments.

Ah, but I haven't.

I have rejected yours and Joseph Smith's. The only reason I say this is because you so clearly state our beliefs are not the same--and Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are how we differ. In my view you place Joseph Smith--and yourself--over Christ and his teachings.