It's not the government's job to fuck with the economy

[Sallow]

Well we haven't operated on that belief for over 80 years now....how is that going for us as a nation? 9% unemployment, 15trillion in debt, 10's of trillions more in unfunded liabilities (unconstitutional liabilities at that).

The 9% unemployment compares favorably to a typical downturn/panic/depression in the pre-New Deal decades. Double-digit unemployment was the norm then. The debt compares favorably (as a percentage of GDP) to what we normally had at the end of a major war. The "unfunded liabilities" are not actually unfunded and should be regarded as government expenditures, not liabilities.

And as for their "unconstitutionality," I suggest you take it up with the Supreme Court, which has authority to decide that question while you do not. Lest you think I'm being arbitrary in saying that, I will point out that "Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes . . . to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States . . . [and] to regulate commerce among the several states . . ." provides full authority to the federal government to do everything you're objecting to, and that any belief to the contrary requires twisting the plain language of the Constitution to mean something non-obvious.

Why do I need the supreme court when the constitution is written in plain english what the job of congress is? and the "general welfare" part is explained in federalist 44 as simply a description of the enumerated powers. If "general welfare" meant they could do whatever they wanted then WHY THE FUCK have enumerated powers in the first place? Where is the common sense?

The Federalist papers are not where legislation is derived from. And in any case you skip over opinions that were dead set against a standing army under federal control and an immense amount of cautioning against the accumlation of wealth into the hands of a few..

 

[Liberty]

The 9% unemployment compares favorably to a typical downturn/panic/depression in the pre-New Deal decades. Double-digit unemployment was the norm then. The debt compares favorably (as a percentage of GDP) to what we normally had at the end of a major war. The "unfunded liabilities" are not actually unfunded and should be regarded as government expenditures, not liabilities.

And as for their "unconstitutionality," I suggest you take it up with the Supreme Court, which has authority to decide that question while you do not. Lest you think I'm being arbitrary in saying that, I will point out that "Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes . . . to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States . . . [and] to regulate commerce among the several states . . ." provides full authority to the federal government to do everything you're objecting to, and that any belief to the contrary requires twisting the plain language of the Constitution to mean something non-obvious.

Why do I need the supreme court when the constitution is written in plain english what the job of congress is? and the "general welfare" part is explained in federalist 44 as simply a description of the enumerated powers. If "general welfare" meant they could do whatever they wanted then WHY THE FUCK have enumerated powers in the first place? Where is the common sense?

The Federalist papers are not where legislation is derived from. And in any case you skip over opinions that were dead set against a standing army under federal control and an immense amount of cautioning against the accumlation of wealth into the hands of a few..

So let me get this straight. When it comes to understanding original intent, you would choose the words of a man 100+ years in the future who never knew the author over the author (madison) himself? Honestly?

 

[Sallow]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

The govt needs to pack it up and get out of the way and stick to the limits placed on its power by the constitution.

Sure thing. It could start by getting rid of the standing professional army. Never was mandated by the constitution and costs a bundle.

I will start believing you guys when you really start going after the big ticket items.

I agree...we are finally in a world where love and peace are the dominant emotions. Hate and desire to control only exists in small pockets and pose absolutely no threat to the free world.

I not only believe we should eliminate the standing professional military but we should eliminate all nuclear weapons and melt down all munitions. Likewise, we should transform our naval fleet into cruise ships....then spread the wealth of the top 1% to the rest of us and all of us should go on kumbya cruises to the carribean.

Of course, when we return to the mainland from our cruise, if it has not been taken over by Cuba, North Korea, CHina or Iran, we will find that a loaf of bread will cost 40 bucks seeing as we are all now wealthy with money flowing out of our asses...thanks to the 1% who were forced top make the rest of us wealthy.....

Oh yeah....and of course, no one will want to work becuase...well...we are all now millionaires...so there will be a dramatic drop in goods available increasing prices even more dramatically...

Yeah...I like it.....Lets all become liberals.

Wow.....I mean....fucking wow.

So NOW you are starting to realize why these ORIGINALISTS are fucking crazy right?

Or is only when someone points out original intent of the military?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Sure thing. It could start by getting rid of the standing professional army. Never was mandated by the constitution and costs a bundle.

I will start believing you guys when you really start going after the big ticket items.

Yup we don't need bases defending europe and asia at all, those countries can do it on their own.

Our troops should be here defending our seaports and northern and southern borders keeping all the wealth spent on the expenses to feed, cloath, and fuel them up within the country.

We just need enough military to ensure we can deter others from attacking us and if they decide to attack us have enough that we can swiftly decimate their entire country.

Well you are halfway there. The Constitution's original intent has our army looking something like Switzerland's army. Everyone's in..and has to carry a gun.

No one gets paid.

I know and thats how it should be which is why we have the 2nd ammendment and why i get so mad every time that right is widdled away at by another gun law.

 

[Jarhead]

The 9% unemployment compares favorably to a typical downturn/panic/depression in the pre-New Deal decades. Double-digit unemployment was the norm then. The debt compares favorably (as a percentage of GDP) to what we normally had at the end of a major war. The "unfunded liabilities" are not actually unfunded and should be regarded as government expenditures, not liabilities.

And as for their "unconstitutionality," I suggest you take it up with the Supreme Court, which has authority to decide that question while you do not. Lest you think I'm being arbitrary in saying that, I will point out that "Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes . . . to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States . . . [and] to regulate commerce among the several states . . ." provides full authority to the federal government to do everything you're objecting to, and that any belief to the contrary requires twisting the plain language of the Constitution to mean something non-obvious.

Why do I need the supreme court when the constitution is written in plain english what the job of congress is? and the "general welfare" part is explained in federalist 44 as simply a description of the enumerated powers. If "general welfare" meant they could do whatever they wanted then WHY THE FUCK have enumerated powers in the first place? Where is the common sense?

The Federalist papers are not where legislation is derived from. And in any case you skip over opinions that were dead set against a standing army under federal control and an immense amount of cautioning against the accumlation of wealth into the hands of a few..

I dont give a flying fuck if the concept of a military wasnt even a thought back when the constitution was written.

Do you really think we can get by without one?

 

[Dragon]

The new deal was FDR...we got the double digit stuff AFTER wilson got the govt involved in the economy 20 years prior to the new deal.

No, it happened like clockwork from the 1830s on. The Great Depression wasn't unique. It was just the LAST such depression -- until this one.

Where does the constitution allow for the federal govt to run a social security or a medicare program

Article I, Section 8, first clause.

...where does the constitution give the feds the authority to "bail out" banks and businesses

Same, also third clause of the same section.

....where does it give them the authority to require me to buy health insurance from a private company?

That's more iffy. Of course, the individual mandate doesn't actually do that; it only imposes a tax if you don't. But it's still uncertain by the precedent of U.S. v. Butler; I'm sure the Court will need to rule on this.

 

[Defiant1]

The belief that the government should have nothing to do with the economy is the single biggest reason why this sort of conservatism represents only a small and dwindling minority of the people.

Seriously.

So you think it is the job of government to guarantee jobs to everyone that wants one?

 

[Sallow]

Why do I need the supreme court when the constitution is written in plain english what the job of congress is? and the "general welfare" part is explained in federalist 44 as simply a description of the enumerated powers. If "general welfare" meant they could do whatever they wanted then WHY THE FUCK have enumerated powers in the first place? Where is the common sense?

The Federalist papers are not where legislation is derived from. And in any case you skip over opinions that were dead set against a standing army under federal control and an immense amount of cautioning against the accumlation of wealth into the hands of a few..

So let me get this straight. When it comes to understanding original intent, you would choose the words of a man 100+ years in the future who never knew the author over the author (madison) himself? Honestly?

In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended.Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people. -Madison- Speech Constitutional Convention (1787-06-29), from Max Farrand's Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, vol. I [1] (1911), p. 465

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Madison

You really don't know what the fuck you are talking about, do you?

 

[Jarhead]

Sure thing. It could start by getting rid of the standing professional army. Never was mandated by the constitution and costs a bundle.

I will start believing you guys when you really start going after the big ticket items.

I agree...we are finally in a world where love and peace are the dominant emotions. Hate and desire to control only exists in small pockets and pose absolutely no threat to the free world.

I not only believe we should eliminate the standing professional military but we should eliminate all nuclear weapons and melt down all munitions. Likewise, we should transform our naval fleet into cruise ships....then spread the wealth of the top 1% to the rest of us and all of us should go on kumbya cruises to the carribean.

Of course, when we return to the mainland from our cruise, if it has not been taken over by Cuba, North Korea, CHina or Iran, we will find that a loaf of bread will cost 40 bucks seeing as we are all now wealthy with money flowing out of our asses...thanks to the 1% who were forced top make the rest of us wealthy.....

Oh yeah....and of course, no one will want to work becuase...well...we are all now millionaires...so there will be a dramatic drop in goods available increasing prices even more dramatically...

Yeah...I like it.....Lets all become liberals.

Wow.....I mean....fucking wow.

So NOW you are starting to realize why these ORIGINALISTS are fucking crazy right?

Or is only when someone points out original intent of the military?

Let me put it to you this way....

I have been poor...I have been well off.
I have a college degree...I paid off the loans.
I have been an employee, I have been an empoloyer
I have been homeless (true..for a full summer)...I have rented...and owned two homes (not at the same time)

I have never collected a dime in unemployment, welfare or food stamps. I have never used medicare.

Government has been there for me for:

1) police protection
2) military protection
3) Fire protection
4) transportation needs (roads, bridges, etc)

So for me?

Gettring rid of the military is absurd....it is one of 4 services I cant do for myself.

 

[eflatminor]

If they would stop this Wilson-era bullshit tinkering unemployment would go down and businesses could accurately prepare YEARS IN ADVANCE and hire people. I don't see why this is such a difficult god damn concept.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

The govt needs to pack it up and get out of the way and stick to the limits placed on its power by the constitution.

Sure thing. It could start by getting rid of the standing professional army. Never was mandated by the constitution and costs a bundle.

I will start believing you guys when you really start going after the big ticket items.

While I'm staunchly against the extent of our military interventionism, you are dead wrong about a standing army. Read up on the Federal vs Anti-Federalist debates prior to enacting the Constitution. The standing army side won. In return, we got the Bill of Rights.

That's not to say the idea of a Swiss like army doesn't have merit. It does. But that's not how it worked out for America. If you want to change that, you'll have to amend the Constitution.

Regarding big ticket items, I for one advocate going after them aggressively, including the biggest of the big ticket items such as Medicare, Medicade, AND having troops stationed in 150+ countries. So, you can believe me. Can't speak for anyone else.

 

[MikeK]

If they would stop this Wilson-era bullshit tinkering unemployment would go down and businesses could accurately prepare YEARS IN ADVANCE and hire people. I don't see why this is such a difficult god damn concept.

It's not a difficult concept. But like Karl Marx you Libertarians have it all figured out except for one thing -- human nature. You naively believe that those in a position to do the things which have brought our economy down will be constrained by some innate moral sense. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way in the real world. Government control of the economy is critically necessary.

The fact is government was doing a fine job of regulating the fiscal conduct of the business community until Ronald Reagan, a corporatist puppet, commenced the process of deregulation which has brought the most powerful and efficient economic system on Earth to near ruin.

If you'd like to see a very clear picture of exactly what has happened to the U.S. Economy, how it happened and who did it, I respectfully urge you to obtain and watch the documentary video, Inside Job. It will provide you with a substantial education in just two hours.

Netflix - Unlimited TV Shows & Movies Online

If you'd rather not watch the video but prefer to take my word for exactly what has been done to wreck our economy I can tell you that in a single sentence: Deregulation and the shift from a demand side to a supply side system.

 

[paulitician]

It's part of the Socialist Nanny State craze being ushered in by the Progressives/Democrats. The saddest part is that many Republicans have joined in on this craze. I mean was George Bush really a Conservative? I never thought so. He was Conservative on some social issues but not on anything else. Less Government is the logical way forward for this nation. A staggering $16 Trillion Debt is all we have to show for with all their meddling.

 

[Sallow]

Why do I need the supreme court when the constitution is written in plain english what the job of congress is? and the "general welfare" part is explained in federalist 44 as simply a description of the enumerated powers. If "general welfare" meant they could do whatever they wanted then WHY THE FUCK have enumerated powers in the first place? Where is the common sense?

The Federalist papers are not where legislation is derived from. And in any case you skip over opinions that were dead set against a standing army under federal control and an immense amount of cautioning against the accumlation of wealth into the hands of a few..

I dont give a flying fuck if the concept of a military wasnt even a thought back when the constitution was written.

Do you really think we can get by without one?

Back to my original point. Originalists are fucking crazy. When you start going on about small this..and small that..then you either have to put up or shut up.

This isn't a small country. We have lots of territory and are interconnected with the entire world.

The primary function of the government, any government, is to take care of it's people. That's the buy in. If a government isn't doing that..then it is a government that is a failure.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

It's part of the Socialist Nanny State craze being ushered in by the Progressives/Democrats. The saddest part is that many Republicans have joined in on this craze. I mean was George Bush really a Conservative? I never thought so. He was Conservative on some social issues but not on anything else. Less Government is the logical way forward for this nation. A staggering $16 Trillion Debt is all we have to show for with all their meddling.

Medicare part D, unbalanced budgets, the patriot act...there are 3 things that say bush was just another Progressive wearing a Republican tag near his name.

 

[Jarhead]

The Federalist papers are not where legislation is derived from. And in any case you skip over opinions that were dead set against a standing army under federal control and an immense amount of cautioning against the accumlation of wealth into the hands of a few..

I dont give a flying fuck if the concept of a military wasnt even a thought back when the constitution was written.

Do you really think we can get by without one?

Back to my original point. Originalists are fucking crazy. When you start going on about small this..and small that..then you either have to put up or shut up.

This isn't a small country. We have lots of territory and are interconnected with the entire world.

The primary function of the government, any government, is to take care of it's people. That's the buy in. If a government isn't doing that..then it is a government that is a failure.

wow.

You and I will never agree on that point.

I do not need Goverenment to take care of me.

I need government to protect me from enemies, lawbreakers and fires.
I need government to makes sure I can travel acrosss this great land.

I do not need them to take care of me.

Again...and you know I love you Sallow....but....WOW.

 

[Sallow]

I agree...we are finally in a world where love and peace are the dominant emotions. Hate and desire to control only exists in small pockets and pose absolutely no threat to the free world.

I not only believe we should eliminate the standing professional military but we should eliminate all nuclear weapons and melt down all munitions. Likewise, we should transform our naval fleet into cruise ships....then spread the wealth of the top 1% to the rest of us and all of us should go on kumbya cruises to the carribean.

Of course, when we return to the mainland from our cruise, if it has not been taken over by Cuba, North Korea, CHina or Iran, we will find that a loaf of bread will cost 40 bucks seeing as we are all now wealthy with money flowing out of our asses...thanks to the 1% who were forced top make the rest of us wealthy.....

Oh yeah....and of course, no one will want to work becuase...well...we are all now millionaires...so there will be a dramatic drop in goods available increasing prices even more dramatically...

Yeah...I like it.....Lets all become liberals.

Wow.....I mean....fucking wow.

So NOW you are starting to realize why these ORIGINALISTS are fucking crazy right?

Or is only when someone points out original intent of the military?

Let me put it to you this way....

I have been poor...I have been well off.
I have a college degree...I paid off the loans.
I have been an employee, I have been an empoloyer
I have been homeless (true..for a full summer)...I have rented...and owned two homes (not at the same time)

I have never collected a dime in unemployment, welfare or food stamps. I have never used medicare.

Government has been there for me for:

1) police protection
2) military protection
3) Fire protection
4) transportation needs (roads, bridges, etc)

So for me?

Gettring rid of the military is absurd....it is one of 4 services I cant do for myself.

That may all work out for you..but your case is not everyone's case. And you don't live in this country alone. So you, along with everyone else gets to decide how we move forward. And if enough people are sick and tired of how we are moving forward..then we cease to be a country.

 

[eflatminor]

The primary function of the government...is to take care of it's people.

I disagree. The primary function of our government is to keep us free. It's up to you to take care of yourself.

 

[Avatar4321]

If they would stop this Wilson-era bullshit tinkering unemployment would go down and businesses could accurately prepare YEARS IN ADVANCE and hire people. I don't see why this is such a difficult god damn concept.

It's not that it's a difficult concept. It's that those who don't want to listen to it don't really care about growing the economy. Simple as that. They want power over people. Even if it hurts us all in the long run.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The new deal was FDR...we got the double digit stuff AFTER wilson got the govt involved in the economy 20 years prior to the new deal.

No, it happened like clockwork from the 1830s on. The Great Depression wasn't unique. It was just the LAST such depression -- until this one.

Where does the constitution allow for the federal govt to run a social security or a medicare program

Article I, Section 8, first clause.

...where does the constitution give the feds the authority to "bail out" banks and businesses

Same, also third clause of the same section.

....where does it give them the authority to require me to buy health insurance from a private company?

That's more iffy. Of course, the individual mandate doesn't actually do that; it only imposes a tax if you don't. But it's still uncertain by the precedent of U.S. v. Butler; I'm sure the Court will need to rule on this.

That is true there were some times where unemployemnt went over 10% before wilson but it happened more drastically and devestatingly after wilson and the laws he signed that related to the govt getting invovled in the economy.

Article 1 section 8 does not give them authority to run a social security program nor medicare. Promoting the general welfare does not = run social security.

Article 1, section 8's 3rd clause of regulating Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes does not give them the authority to take money from citizens and use it to bail out companies/banks/coroporations.

As far as health care being iffy in the constitution it is not........its not expressly granted in the constitution therefore it is not the domain of the federal govt but reserved for the states or the people respectively.


Since you brought up articl 1 section 8 how do you justify our progressive tax structure under the language that states all duties, imposts, and excises must be uniform?


And if you didn't get my message please don't chop up my posts, just quote me and respond I can follow your response fine, when you hack up my posts it makes responding way more tedious and difficult....plus you have a tendancy to chop out my context.

 

[Sallow]

I dont give a flying fuck if the concept of a military wasnt even a thought back when the constitution was written.

Do you really think we can get by without one?

Back to my original point. Originalists are fucking crazy. When you start going on about small this..and small that..then you either have to put up or shut up.

This isn't a small country. We have lots of territory and are interconnected with the entire world.

The primary function of the government, any government, is to take care of it's people. That's the buy in. If a government isn't doing that..then it is a government that is a failure.

wow.

You and I will never agree on that point.

I do not need Goverenment to take care of me.

I need government to protect me from enemies, lawbreakers and fires.
I need government to makes sure I can travel acrosss this great land.

I do not need them to take care of me.

Again...and you know I love you Sallow....but....WOW.

You contradict yourself in the same post. You don't need the government to take care of you but you need it to protect you?

Protection is part and parcel with care. You may not think so..but that's the way it is. And "care" doesn't stop where you say so..it stops were "we" say so. And it's the "we" that includes the entire country. So at some point we either compromise or we don't.

And the "don't" will be the eventual end of the country.