Israel: Rules? Fuck the Rules, We'll make our own damn rules!

[mystic]

To Israel's credit though, there is a healthy debate within Israel as to their conduct in Gaza - support is by no means as monolithic as it seems to be outside of Israel in the U.S.

And what you think the reasons for that are? I've got my own theories, but I'd like to hear what you think.

Because Israel is a democracy with a mostly free press, and it has an extremely varied and pluralistic population - despite being heavily Jewish. You have everything from extremely orthodox groups (women cover their heads and ride segregated bus') to largely secular Jews. You have Jews who immigrated from Europe (many different nationalities), Russia, Africa (though there was resistence to accepting them as Jewish), the Middle East etc. That's a lot of diversity and with that diversity you are going to have many differences of opinion regarding what Israel is and should be.

My own theories revolve around how physical distance creates a (false, IMHO) removal from consequences and involvement and facilitates the use of a media smokescreen, whereas, "in the thick of it", the media has to contend with street/common knowledge.
It's much easier to dismiss or disregard suffering that is thousands of miles away, or even spin doctor reasons for said suffering.

Thank you for your response.

 

[Coyote]

And what you think the reasons for that are? I've got my own theories, but I'd like to hear what you think.

Because Israel is a democracy with a mostly free press, and it has an extremely varied and pluralistic population - despite being heavily Jewish. You have everything from extremely orthodox groups (women cover their heads and ride segregated bus') to largely secular Jews. You have Jews who immigrated from Europe (many different nationalities), Russia, Africa (though there was resistence to accepting them as Jewish), the Middle East etc. That's a lot of diversity and with that diversity you are going to have many differences of opinion regarding what Israel is and should be.

My own theories revolve around how physical distance creates a (false, IMHO) removal from consequences and involvement and facilitates the use of a media smokescreen, whereas, "in the thick of it", the media has to contend with street/common knowledge.
It's much easier to dismiss or disregard suffering that is thousands of miles away, or even spin doctor reasons for said suffering.

Thank you for your response.

Ah....I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking why there was a lot of debate within Israel but you were really asking why there was that and less difference of opinion here in the U.S.

I think you are right in part that physical distance creates emotional distance. I think other factors come into it too. Culturally we are more readily able to identify with Isreali's than Arabs on the one hand, and on the other I think we as a nation hold a sort of collective guilt for the holocaust and Israel represents an assauging of that guilt.

 

[GISMYS]

Well, I think at this point we can conclude that Israel did in fact break said rules and now are trying to amend said rules to suit their needs. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a single country should be dictating international policy on what the rules of war should be.

A better solution would be to just investigate the damn war. Even Israel's closest allies, the U.S., the UK and France are calling for them to investigate.

It sure sounds like it doesn't it?

To Israel's credit though, there is a healthy debate within Israel as to their conduct in Gaza - support is by no means as monolithic as it seems to be outside of Israel in the U.S.

7 days of no soup for you.

ISRAEL answers only to ALMIGHTY GOD!!! NOT silly little man!

 

[Ropey]

Well, I think at this point we can conclude that Israel did in fact break said rules and now are trying to amend said rules to suit their needs. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a single country should be dictating international policy on what the rules of war should be.

A better solution would be to just investigate the damn war. Even Israel's closest allies, the U.S., the UK and France are calling for them to investigate.

It sure sounds like it doesn't it?

To Israel's credit though, there is a healthy debate within Israel as to their conduct in Gaza - support is by no means as monolithic as it seems to be outside of Israel in the U.S.

7 days of no soup for you.

 

[GISMYS]

BIBLE PROPHECY SAYS wwIII is fought over the nation of the world trying to force TINY ISRAEL to divide their tiny land!!!==== “At that time, when I restore the prosperity of Judah and Jerusalem,” says the Lord, 2 “I will gather the armies of the world into the ‘Valley Where Jehovah Judges’[a] and punish them there for harming my people, for scattering my inheritance among the nations and dividing up my land. JOEL 3:2

 

[Coyote]

Good grief - that's an old thread you necro'd

And some posters that I haven't seen in years....

 

[GISMYS]

GOD'S promise to ISRAEL=====“But now,” the Lord God says, “I will end the captivity of my people and have mercy upon them and restore their fortunes, for I am concerned about my reputation! 26 Their time of treachery and shame will all be in the past; they will be home again, in peace and safety in their own land, with no one bothering them or making them afraid. 27 I will bring them home from the lands of their enemies—and my glory shall be evident to all the nations when I do it. Through them I will vindicate my holiness before the nations. 28 Then my people will know I am the Lord their God—responsible for sending them away to exile, and responsible for bringing them home. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations. 29 And I will never hide my face from them again, for I will pour out my Spirit upon them,” says the Lord God. EZEKIEL 39:25-29

 

[Phoenall]

AFP: Israel wants law of war changed after damning UN Gaza report

JERUSALEM — Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu instructed his government on Tuesday to draw up proposals to amend the international laws of war after a damning UN report on its war in Gaza.

The security cabinet did not, however, discuss calls made by ministers for an internal investigation into the 22-day offensive at the turn of the year that killed some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis, an official told AFP.

Israel was dealt a heavy diplomatic blow with the adoption by the UN Human Rights Council of the report that accused both Israel and the Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip of war crimes.

Israel's closest allies, the United States, Britain and France urged it to investigate war crime allegations raised by the fact-finding missions headed by Richard Goldstone, a former international war crimes prosecutor.

Mmm, an army with the full international backing to do whatever the hell they want to whomever the hell they deem as "terrorists." Sounds enticing.

Meanwhile, hardline Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman met with EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana, reiterating Israel's stance that peace talks with the Palestinians could not progress amid international support for the Goldstone report.

Goldstone, who has faced a storm of personal attacks inside Israel since the report's publication, dismissed the argument and urged the Jewish state to comply with the recommendation to investigate the war.

"It's a shallow, utterly false allegation," Goldstone said during a meeting with a group of rabbis in the United States, remarks aired on Monday by Israeli public radio.

"What peace process are they talking about? There isn't one. The Israeli foreign minister doesn't want one," Goldstone said.

Well, I think at this point we can conclude that Israel did in fact break said rules and now are trying to amend said rules to suit their needs. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a single country should be dictating international policy on what the rules of war should be.

A better solution would be to just investigate the damn war. Even Israel's closest allies, the U.S., the UK and France are calling for them to investigate.

How old is this link as I remember it from 2006/2007 and since then Israel has investigated the claims and found them true in some cases. The P.A. has consistently refused to investigate the claims because they follow islam first and not the laws of man.

 

[Phoenall]

War has no rules. And all the bullshit "rules" that have been invented do only one thing, enable terrorists and those with no desire to follow "rules" the ability to endanger any force dumb enough to follow the supposed "rules".

So dog how does one fight an enemy that hides in the civilian population? One that launches rockets mortars and shells from civilian location ? One that when war starts hides amongst the supposed civilians and continues to fight from civilian positions?

You can defeat them by abandoning oppressive policies.

And get exterminated in the process, or is that what you intend. To finish the final solution and wipe out the Jews.

 

[Phoenall]

So dog how does one fight an enemy that hides in the civilian population? One that launches rockets mortars and shells from civilian location ? One that when war starts hides amongst the supposed civilians and continues to fight from civilian positions?

I always makes me laugh when people call the Hamas freedom fighters cowards. Because they fight in civilian areas and from civilian positions.

People just don't realize that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the face of the earth.

Israel has imprisoned the Palestinian people on a small jam packed piece of land and built a wall around it.

So anywhare that Hamas defends themselves against the IDF is going to be a civilian area.

And you don't realise that Google Earth shows just how much of gaza is not civilian. How 50% is barren wasteland were the cowards could fire their rockets from. Isreal has not imprisoned them as they are free to leave any time they want.
Look at Google Earth and see just how much of gaza in uninhabited land, and then read the Geneva conventions and see how they saw allowing terrorists to fire from civilian areas is a WAR CRIME and a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY

 

[Phoenall]

I always makes me laugh when people call the Hamas freedom fighters cowards. Because they fight in civilian areas and from civilian positions.

People just don't realize that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the face of the earth.

Israel has imprisoned the Palestinian people on a small jam packed piece of land and built a wall around it.

So anywhare that Hamas defends themselves against the IDF is going to be a civilian area.

well if they dont like it they can abandon thier cause of pushing the jew into the sea and then get the fuck out.

so, too, can the jews get the fuck out. Lord knows your personal salvation depends on your jew loving racism!

ps... it's THEIR. not thier.

Why when they are not the aggressors, it was the arab muslims that declared war and only two arab nations have rescinded that declaration of war.

 

[Phoenall]

Well, I think at this point we can conclude that Israel did in fact break said rules and now are trying to amend said rules to suit their needs. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a single country should be dictating international policy on what the rules of war should be.

A better solution would be to just investigate the damn war. Even Israel's closest allies, the U.S., the UK and France are calling for them to investigate.

It sure sounds like it doesn't it?

To Israel's credit though, there is a healthy debate within Israel as to their conduct in Gaza - support is by no means as monolithic as it seems to be outside of Israel in the U.S.

The report is 7 years old and is now ancient history, or didn't you realise that in your haste to demonise Israel like the biased RACIST you are. When will the P.A. investigate the claims as the UN has asked, you know like Israel did and their report is on file at the UN.

 

[Phoenall]

To Israel's credit though, there is a healthy debate within Israel as to their conduct in Gaza - support is by no means as monolithic as it seems to be outside of Israel in the U.S.

And what you think the reasons for that are? I've got my own theories, but I'd like to hear what you think.

Transparency and openness for starters, unlike the P.A. that is devious and two faced

 

[Phoenall]

To Israel's credit though, there is a healthy debate within Israel as to their conduct in Gaza - support is by no means as monolithic as it seems to be outside of Israel in the U.S.

And what you think the reasons for that are? I've got my own theories, but I'd like to hear what you think.

Because Israel is a democracy with a mostly free press, and it has an extremely varied and pluralistic population - despite being heavily Jewish. You have everything from extremely orthodox groups (women cover their heads and ride segregated bus') to largely secular Jews. You have Jews who immigrated from Europe (many different nationalities), Russia, Africa (though there was resistence to accepting them as Jewish), the Middle East etc. That's a lot of diversity and with that diversity you are going to have many differences of opinion regarding what Israel is and should be.

There was no resistance to the Ethiopian Jews only the illegal muslim immigrants that are being deported every day.

 

[Phoenall]

... and four score and seven years ago there was not a "diverse" America whose population disagreed over slavery? A hundred years later....

67 years ago the arab muslims saw the Jews as slaves and test dummies for swords and knives. Hold on they still see then the same today, which is why they follow the korans commands to "KILL THE JEWS"

 

[Ropey]

Well, I think at this point we can conclude that Israel did in fact break said rules and now are trying to amend said rules to suit their needs. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a single country should be dictating international policy on what the rules of war should be.

A better solution would be to just investigate the damn war. Even Israel's closest allies, the U.S., the UK and France are calling for them to investigate.

It sure sounds like it doesn't it?

To Israel's credit though, there is a healthy debate within Israel as to their conduct in Gaza - support is by no means as monolithic as it seems to be outside of Israel in the U.S.

The report is 7 years old and is now ancient history, or didn't you realise that in your haste to demonise Israel like the biased RACIST you are. When will the P.A. investigate the claims as the UN has asked, you know like Israel did and their report is on file at the UN.

There's the rub.

This is why apologist methods don't bring about any real discussion.

Because apologist methods & tactics work both ways to confuse and obfuscate.

 

[Kondor3]

Doesn't matter.

Israel will do what it needs to do, to protect its own.

And if that means that it's got to break a few eggs on the way to producing omelettes, they will.

Don't want your people hit?

Don't fire rockets from amongst your civilian population.

Plenty of wasteland and scrub-land outside of those heavily populated areas, regardless of what some of the Hamas Apologists amongst us would have us believe.

Don't fire upon Israeli troops from inside schools and hospitals and mosques.

Don't tunnel under the wire into Israeli territory.

Don't provoke border and fence-line incidents.

Or, better yet, just stop fighting.

Run up the white flag.

Surrender.

Then pack up and move away, and begin new and happier lives, elsewhere, where you're actually wanted and welcome.

The world has been putting up with this Muslim-Palestinian bullshit for 66 years.

No way you win.

It's over.

Enough, already.

 

[montelatici]

Doesn't matter.

Israel will do what it needs to do, to protect its own.

And if that means that it's got to break a few eggs on the way to producing omelettes, they will.

Don't want your people hit?

Don't fire rockets from amongst your civilian population.

Plenty of wasteland and scrub-land outside of those heavily populated areas, regardless of what some of the Hamas Apologists amongst us would have us believe.

Don't fire upon Israeli troops from inside schools and hospitals and mosques.

Don't tunnel under the wire into Israeli territory.

Don't provoke border and fence-line incidents.

Or, better yet, kist stop fighting.

Run up the white flag.

Surrender.

Then pack up and move away, and begin new and happier lives, elsewhere, where you're actually wanted and welcome.

The world has been putting up with this Muslim-Palestinian bullshit for 66 years.

No way you win.

It's over.

Enough, already.

The world has been putting up with Israeli Jewish bullshit for 66 years.

 

[Kondor3]

Doesn't matter.

Israel will do what it needs to do, to protect its own.

And if that means that it's got to break a few eggs on the way to producing omelettes, they will.

Don't want your people hit?

Don't fire rockets from amongst your civilian population.

Plenty of wasteland and scrub-land outside of those heavily populated areas, regardless of what some of the Hamas Apologists amongst us would have us believe.

Don't fire upon Israeli troops from inside schools and hospitals and mosques.

Don't tunnel under the wire into Israeli territory.

Don't provoke border and fence-line incidents.

Or, better yet, kist stop fighting.

Run up the white flag.

Surrender.

Then pack up and move away, and begin new and happier lives, elsewhere, where you're actually wanted and welcome.

The world has been putting up with this Muslim-Palestinian bullshit for 66 years.

No way you win.

It's over.

Enough, already.

The world has been putting up with Israeli Jewish bullshit for 66 years.

Feel free try to stop them, anytime you like.

 

[montelatici]

Doesn't matter.

Israel will do what it needs to do, to protect its own.

And if that means that it's got to break a few eggs on the way to producing omelettes, they will.

Don't want your people hit?

Don't fire rockets from amongst your civilian population.

Plenty of wasteland and scrub-land outside of those heavily populated areas, regardless of what some of the Hamas Apologists amongst us would have us believe.

Don't fire upon Israeli troops from inside schools and hospitals and mosques.

Don't tunnel under the wire into Israeli territory.

Don't provoke border and fence-line incidents.

Or, better yet, kist stop fighting.

Run up the white flag.

Surrender.

Then pack up and move away, and begin new and happier lives, elsewhere, where you're actually wanted and welcome.

The world has been putting up with this Muslim-Palestinian bullshit for 66 years.

No way you win.

It's over.

Enough, already.

The world has been putting up with Israeli Jewish bullshit for 66 years.

Feel free try to stop them, anytime you like.

You do the same in trying to stop the Palestinians from resisting, bozo.