Israel in 'all-out war' with Hamas

[FistyTheBadger]

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For generations, in fact, for nearly a century, Arab leaders have used all sources of information to inculcate in their subject peoples an uncompromising hatred of Israel and of Israelis. So long as they continue to do this, there is no possibility that the attitudes of the Arabs in the disputed territories about Israel and Isrealis will change. Hamas is doctrinally committed to the destruction of Israel and with that commitment well known to voters it won an overwhelming victory in the elections two years ago. Even now polls show Hamas runs a close second to Fatah.

It will take at least a generation, and probably more, of new, conciliatory messages from the Arab leaders to their people before the people in the disputed territories will stop following terrorist leaders. Israel needs to accept the fact that for the foreseeable future its security depends on the ability of its military to limit the Arabs' ability to express their hatred violently.

That is where the aggression from Israel must come in. However, if Israel is just aggressive, the groups that would desire continued terrorism will develop new propaganda designed to increase their ranks and fight back against a perceived enemy, at which point the cycle will start all over again.

 

[FistyTheBadger]

I think Israel is bluffing about entering Gaza. If they do it, their soldiers will be slaughtered by the suicide bombers Hamas will unleash. It will be interesting to see, I guess. I'm a bit worried.

Not if Israel was serious. If Israel was serious, Hamas would have a shelf-life of a week.

 

[strollingbones]

100 tons of restraint on day one?

 

[indago]

Israel got tired of suffering under the constant barrage of rocket fire from Gaza, fired from Hamas positions, and attacked the Gaza area, which is controlled by Hamas. If the Gaza area is not going to control the Hamas, and stop the constant rocket firing into Israel, then Israel forces are going to go into the Gaza area and put a stop to it themselves.

A few years back, on another message board, a poster wrote this: "Yes I understand that people are going to die. Viet Nam taught me that. But Lord knows there's got to be a better way." I posted this:

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That's what the League of Nations was all about. President Wilson fought hard and long to get this established after the First World War — the war to end all wars — but was rebutted by the Congress. The off-shoot of the League of Nations is the United Nations. Member Nations would gather together to settle their differences in council rather than raise an army and attack each other, and those recalcitrant nations would be handled by the United Nations peacekeeping forces. This is still a good idea, albeit rather fumbling at times. It's a shame that the nations don't work harder to implement peacekeeping ideals, but there are so many different ideoligies to contend with.

I wrote this on another message board awhile ago concerning dropping THE BOMB on Japan:

Too many people support war. When their boy gets old enough to go to war, they are proud when he enlists for duty, and my, doesn't Johnny look handsome in his new uniform. When Johnny comes home in a body bag, and they have to have a closed casket funeral for him because, all of a sudden, Johnny isn't so handsome in his new uniform anymore; war becomes "up close, and personal".

Ken Burns produced a series on the Civil War, and in one segment depicted the town citizens, who, learning of a battle that was going to be fought just outside of town, gathered family and friends and went out to the hillsides to picnic and watch the proceedings. The battle was fought aways off, so they were not actually at risk. Mr. Burns also noted the famous photographer Mathew Brady, who, with his Black Mariah — his photolab on wheels, where he could close the curtains and process the glass plates used in his photography business — went out to the battlefields and took photographs of the Union troops as they went about their daily routines. He stayed well away from the battles, but after the battles were over, he went out into the fields and photographed the dead soldiers. He had some photographic prints made for a viewing in Washington, and when the people came to see them in the gallery, they were shocked at the devastations: the contorted looks of the bodies, and the torn flesh, and limbs. This was just too much for the sensitivities of the populace, who viewed warring as honorable and righteous.

I have written before, and it bears repeating: "The civilians in Japan supported the Japanese war effort. Every day they went to work in factories, fields, and other efforts that contributed to the war. In this respect, the civilian population of an enemy country is as culpable as the military in continuing the war effort, and could be considered as much a military target as an airplane factory, or munitions supply depot. War is not pretty. People die in wars. It has always been this way. If people don't want to die anymore in wars, then they should find a way to prevent them, and to subdue those who have a propensity toward warring."
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[toomuchtime_]

I think Israel is bluffing about entering Gaza. If they do it, their soldiers will be slaughtered by the suicide bombers Hamas will unleash. It will be interesting to see, I guess. I'm a bit worried.

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That was also the prediction many made when Israel retook the West Bank, and especially when they retook Jenin, but while they did suffer some casualties, one could hardly say they were slaughtered. Indeed, the Arab militants in Jenin, who were supposed to be such fierce and fearless fighters, soon started complaining they were being slaughtered.

I don't see how Israel can avoid entering Gaza. They have so far not bombed major ammo depots and other targets because they embedded in densely populated areas, but if they don't take out these targets, Hamas' capabilities will not be seriously diminished, and this response will be seen by the Israeli people as another bungled response like the last war in Lebanon.

With the training of Abbas' security forces making progress and with Israel showing more and more confidence in the ability of these forces to control militants, my guess is that Israel will retake Gaza, much as they retook the West Bank when Oslo failed, hunt down all those who were associated with Hamas and other militant organizations and then begin to support the takeover of Gaza by Abbas' forces. This would unify the government in the territories and give Abbas or his successor the opportunity to become a more creditable negotiating partner. When one considers how many Fatah supporters were slaughtered by Hamas in its takeover of Gaza and how brutally they have been treating Fatah supporters even since, and how low keyed Abbas' criticisms of the current Israeli operation has been, the idea that Israel and Abbas might already have such an understanding is not so far fetched.

 

[DavidS]

100 tons of restraint on day one?

What the hell is your problem, Bones? Do you expect Israel to hurl the same kind of rockets that Hamas is throwing at them?

 

[toomuchtime_]

That is where the aggression from Israel must come in. However, if Israel is just aggressive, the groups that would desire continued terrorism will develop new propaganda designed to increase their ranks and fight back against a perceived enemy, at which point the cycle will start all over again.

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Their attitude towards Israel is a generations old part of their cultural heritage and nothing Israel does now will change it as long as their schools, their political leaders and their religious leaders continue to feed that hatred. This being so, military action is the only effective means Israel has of limiting aggression from Arab militants.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

So far as I can see, the Arab leadership does not care what happens to the arab on the street, except as he can be used as a marionette in their other goals. This is a never ending cultural problem that won't go away, that the arab street thinks that wealth is things rather than skills.

The problem exists to a smaller degree here, where people with diplomas in basket weaving (I exaggerate to make a point here, work with me on this) wonder why they can't get a job beyond tortilla wrapper and someone with 85wpm typing is getting 35,000 a year. The palestinians have been given a target for hostility, rather than a target for growth. In order to change their circumstances, they need to change what is in their heads. And I don't see that happening.

 

[DiveCon]

So far as I can see, the Arab leadership does not care what happens to the arab on the street, except as he can be used as a marionette in their other goals. This is a never ending cultural problem that won't go away, that the arab street thinks that wealth is things rather than skills.

The problem exists to a smaller degree here, where people with diplomas in basket weaving (I exaggerate to make a point here, work with me on this) wonder why they can't get a job beyond tortilla wrapper and someone with 85wpm typing is getting 35,000 a year. The palestinians have been given a target for hostility, rather than a target for growth. In order to change their circumstances, they need to change what is in their heads. And I don't see that happening.

that is too much truth for most

 

[DavidS]

So far as I can see, the Arab leadership does not care what happens to the arab on the street, except as he can be used as a marionette in their other goals. This is a never ending cultural problem that won't go away, that the arab street thinks that wealth is things rather than skills.

The problem exists to a smaller degree here, where people with diplomas in basket weaving (I exaggerate to make a point here, work with me on this) wonder why they can't get a job beyond tortilla wrapper and someone with 85wpm typing is getting 35,000 a year. The palestinians have been given a target for hostility, rather than a target for growth. In order to change their circumstances, they need to change what is in their heads. And I don't see that happening.

You have a very interesting username. A resident Jew here might interpret your username for Blessed Comforter.

Baruch is equal to Barak (Israel's Defense Minister) or Barrack (the name of our current president-elect). It means blessed. Menachem is very rare.

 

[DavidS]

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That was also the prediction many made when Israel retook the West Bank, and especially when they retook Jenin, but while they did suffer some casualties, one could hardly say they were slaughtered. Indeed, the Arab militants in Jenin, who were supposed to be such fierce and fearless fighters, soon started complaining they were being slaughtered.

I don't see how Israel can avoid entering Gaza. They have so far not bombed major ammo depots and other targets because they embedded in densely populated areas, but if they don't take out these targets, Hamas' capabilities will not be seriously diminished, and this response will be seen by the Israeli people as another bungled response like the last war in Lebanon.

With the training of Abbas' security forces making progress and with Israel showing more and more confidence in the ability of these forces to control militants, my guess is that Israel will retake Gaza, much as they retook the West Bank when Oslo failed, hunt down all those who were associated with Hamas and other militant organizations and then begin to support the takeover of Gaza by Abbas' forces. This would unify the government in the territories and give Abbas or his successor the opportunity to become a more creditable negotiating partner. When one considers how many Fatah supporters were slaughtered by Hamas in its takeover of Gaza and how brutally they have been treating Fatah supporters even since, and how low keyed Abbas' criticisms of the current Israeli operation has been, the idea that Israel and Abbas might already have such an understanding is not so far fetched.

Gaza is much smaller than the West Bank. Also the Iraq war hadn't happened at that time and Arafat, G-d curse his soul, was still alive.

Hamas is also very different from Fatah. It was always Hamas and Islamic Jihad, sometimes with a mix of Al Asqua Martyers Brigade launching the suicide bombings in Israel. The wall put a stop to that.... keeping the homicide bombers out. But now Israel wants to go in. No doubt Hamas has learned from Al Queda in Iraq. IED's and RPG's are not fun to manuver around. Additionally, if Israel were to suffer another embarrassment like they did in 2006, it would be terrible. Unfortunately, they did not launch their ground attack quick enough this time around. They should've caught Hamas by surprise. Now there is not only no surprise, but Hamas is downright inviting the IDF into Gaza. Only a massive force could take out Hamas in Gaza on the ground. 6500 troops is not a massive force.

Mark my words, the IDF will not step foot into Gaza and if it does, it will be very limited in scope. A full scale invasion won't happen. If it does, there will be a lot of dead Israeli soldiers thanks to Hamas suicide bombers, which could lead to a breach in the wall between Gaza and Israel and then Hamas could launch suicide attacks INSIDE of Israel.

Once again, poor planning by Barak and Olmert. Centrists and Leftists do not know how to wage a war. When Bibi is elected, you will see what a REAL war looks like.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Barak: Israel in 'all-out war' with Hamas - CNN.com

Pay back is a muthafucker

 

[FistyTheBadger]

You have a very interesting username. A resident Jew here might interpret your username for Blessed Comforter.

Baruch is equal to Barak (Israel's Defense Minister) or Barrack (the name of our current president-elect). It means blessed. Menachem is very rare.

Yeah, Menachim is so rare, I wouldn't know where to begin to look for one.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Long live the memory of Ariel Sharon!!!

fuck hamas

 

[DiveCon]

Pay back is a muthafucker

yup, if your gonna play with the big dog, you better be sure your ready to handle it

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

yup, if your gonna play with the big dog, you better be sure your ready to handle it

you peeked while I was taking a whiz?

 

[DiveCon]

you peeked while I was taking a whiz?

actually, i screwed that one up
LOL
should have been, "if your gonna play with the big dogs, you better be ready to get bit"

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

actually, i screwed that one up
LOL
should have been, "if your gonna play with the big dogs, you better be ready to get bit"

I had a laugh.

thanks

I owe you a pos rep for that one.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Gaza is much smaller than the West Bank. Also the Iraq war hadn't happened at that time and Arafat, G-d curse his soul, was still alive.

Hamas is also very different from Fatah. It was always Hamas and Islamic Jihad, sometimes with a mix of Al Asqua Martyers Brigade launching the suicide bombings in Israel. The wall put a stop to that.... keeping the homicide bombers out. But now Israel wants to go in. No doubt Hamas has learned from Al Queda in Iraq. IED's and RPG's are not fun to manuver around. Additionally, if Israel were to suffer another embarrassment like they did in 2006, it would be terrible. Unfortunately, they did not launch their ground attack quick enough this time around. They should've caught Hamas by surprise. Now there is not only no surprise, but Hamas is downright inviting the IDF into Gaza. Only a massive force could take out Hamas in Gaza on the ground. 6500 troops is not a massive force.

Mark my words, the IDF will not step foot into Gaza and if it does, it will be very limited in scope. A full scale invasion won't happen. If it does, there will be a lot of dead Israeli soldiers thanks to Hamas suicide bombers, which could lead to a breach in the wall between Gaza and Israel and then Hamas could launch suicide attacks INSIDE of Israel.

Once again, poor planning by Barak and Olmert. Centrists and Leftists do not know how to wage a war. When Bibi is elected, you will see what a REAL war looks like.

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The last war in Lebanon was so badly bungled that one hesitates to predict Olmert will handle this one correctly, but Barak has a long and distinguished military history and served both as chief of staff of the IDF and as the commander of units that performed "special operations" so he should have a clear idea of what is possible and what resources are needed to achieve these goals.

The analyses I've seen estimate that Hamas has about 20,000 men under arms, but only a few thousand of them are highly trained and that Israel will need a force of about 10,000 soldiers to crush the armed resistance, hunt down and destroy arms depots, factories, laboratories, etc. and to hunt down and kill or capture nearly all the militants.

Israel has more experience with suicide bombers than any other country in the world, and they have never been effective against the Israeli military. IED's will take a toll, but with the lessons learned from the US experience in Iraq, they will be far less effective than they were in the early days of the Iraq war. Keep in mind that the US suffered in Iraq from a lack of good intel in the early days of that war, but Israel has excellent real time intelligence about activities in Gaza. Even as we speak, the skies over Gaza are buzzing with fleets of Predator type vehicles that are transmitting real time intel about anything that is moving in Gaza, and in addition, Israel has an extensive network of spies in Gaza that will be reporting deployments that Hamas might be hiding from aerial observation.

There is no question but that the IDF will overwhelm and defeat Hamas and its allies, but the lesson to be learned from the last war in Lebanon is that neither world opinion nor Israeli public opinion will tolerate a drawn out war that makes only gradual progress. World opinion and the Israeli public will better tolerate a quick victory that produces higher casualties on both sides than a slower war that produces fewer casualties. Once the invasion begins, I expect armed resistance to be crushed within a few days and the mopping up of Hamas and its allies to take no more than a few weeks.

 

[auditor0007]

How many wars and conflicts are currently taking place throughout the world today? Of those, how many are between Muslims and non-Muslims? Israel is just the centerpiece, but the conflicts are worldwide.

The question we must ask is not how long will Israel be fighting Muslims for her survival, but how long will the rest of the world be fighting Muslims. Will this get better or worse, and if it gets worse, what course of action shall be taken?

When the Muslim population begins to total the non-Muslim population throughout Europe, will Muslims live peacefully beside non-Muslims, or will they then try to force their way of life on everyone?

The way I see things, either Muslims change their view of thier religion and beliefs or eventually, there will be all out war throughout Europe and Asia, and Africa. More likely than not, it will spread to other parts of the world also.

So the real question is; do we try to stop this now or continue to wait for the inevitable?